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Old 04-30-2011, 01:30 PM   #126
abraxis
 
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido
Are shotokan karatekas really doing Funakoshis karate?
Are judokas really doing Kanos Judo.
Are we speaking the same english like 100 years ago?
Or the same japanese? I just read a funny story in the interesting E-book Write for Tohoku,"Lost in translation with Roberta Flack" by Heather Dune, it is about Misaki, grown up in Hawaii having learned the japanese from her grandmother. She asked in japanese for the toilet in a department store in Tokyo and all the sales women laughed and bowed, she repeated her question and the ladys kept laughing holding their stomach, then she was shocked thinking that such a fine department store did not have a restroom, finally the matron came and asked again what Misaki needed, and as she told her the matron too began to laugh and told her, that she had asked for the shit house(Misaki's grandmother had emigrated from Japan before there had been plumbing).
Everything develops... the Aikido too. We should just keep training
By the way you can find this interesting E-Book in http://fortohoku.org/
Thank you, Carina, for your post. I think a cursory review of Judo and Karate sites on the web will find very similar threads focused on this kind of topic. Human memory is a net with a lot of holes in it which each day gets more frayed; human communication is fraught with language difficulties made worse by background noises that interfere with our hearing. If anybody is alive today who actually heard English spoken 100 years ago would that help us any? Can we really be sure of what Chaucer sounded like when he read out loud?And so on and so forth.

Humor and Laughter are welcome alternatives to an excess of fretting about these issues which quickly devolve into barroom discussions.

Having made these statements, may I foolishly venture to ask if anyone here can give the Japanese translation, or, better yet, give the original quote and source from OSensei which is translated into English as:

"there is no enemy, opponent or other in aikido, there is not even a partner"

With kind regards.

Last edited by abraxis : 04-30-2011 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:23 PM   #127
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido
Are shotokan karatekas really doing Funakoshis karate?
Are judokas really doing Kanos Judo.
Are we speaking the same english like 100 years ago?
Or the same japanese? I just read a funny story in the interesting E-book Write for Tohoku,"Lost in translation with Roberta Flack" by Heather Dune, it is about Misaki, grown up in Hawaii having learned the japanese from her grandmother. She asked in japanese for the toilet in a department store in Tokyo and all the sales women laughed and bowed, she repeated her question and the ladys kept laughing holding their stomach, then she was shocked thinking that such a fine department store did not have a restroom, finally the matron came and asked again what Misaki needed, and as she told her the matron too began to laugh and told her, that she had asked for the shit house(Misaki's grandmother had emigrated from Japan before there had been plumbing).
Everything develops... the Aikido too. We should just keep training
By the way you can find this interesting E-Book in http://fortohoku.org/
Ha! The "ben jo" if I remember correctly.... (pity anyone called Ben) now it is toirette, As Japanese people have difficulty with "L" which I believe is French.
I prefer the old saying....... It's like poshe English "the little room" now what's that? The cubby 'ole under the stairs?.... The word shit come from Anglo Saxon, just as many others that are now unmentionable!! WTF So many words that describe things so exactly. I suppose they do get tiresome if used as expletives every third word, Doesn't bother me as they are used everyday by youth here. I tend to use them under my breath or when I've hit my thumb with a lump hammer, so they should only be used when required to describe what it is you want or what you would like to do or as expression of frustration or hurt so long as those with sensitive sensitivities are not in earshot.....

As for aikido or any of the other MA it's all whether on not they are practised for what they were intended for? Aikido now being performed as "martial dance" in many quarters..... Its surprising how many dancers use martial art type movement now, as they are not that far apart.... it's the intent that is missing.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 04-30-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:39 PM   #128
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post

As for aikido or any of the other MA it's all whether on not they are practised for what they were intended for? Aikido now being performed as "martial dance" in many quarters..... Its surprising how many dancers use martial art type movement now, as they are not that far apart.... it's the intent that is missing.....
I think O'Sensei would have liked that too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6GAQ3-X3Ro
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:44 PM   #129
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I think O'Sensei would have liked that too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6GAQ3-X3Ro
Is that why he said "there is no enemy, opponent or other in aikido, there is not even a partner" ?
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Old 04-30-2011, 03:46 PM   #130
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I don't know..
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:00 PM   #131
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Good point, Carina.
I don't worry about whose Aikido I am doing. I suppose it's because I can train only as myself. Only Ueshiba could do his Aikido. I like to think I am training with his principles. Yet after they go though my American woman's filter I am sure they are different. I train with a willing body and sincere heart... doing my best every time I am on the mat. I can't do any better than that. Can anyone?
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:02 PM   #132
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
I think O'Sensei would have liked that too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6GAQ3-X3Ro
I've a hunch he wouldn't somehow, but then again I maybe wrong, won't ever know now will we......
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Old 04-30-2011, 04:32 PM   #133
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

I honestly don't believe O'Sensei was thinking about dance when he practiced, talked or wrote about Aikido. Looking back on this thread, it appears the OP may have touched on an answer to what can be inferred from O'Sensei's statement "there is no enemy opponent or other in aikido, there is not even a partner"

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Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
....In my opinion....The abilities of these gentlemen from what i have observed goes beyond the physical and into the metaphysical....
If that is the case then one question that comes to mind is which Senseis are teaching or doing Osensei's metaphysics?

Last edited by abraxis : 04-30-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 04-30-2011, 05:55 PM   #134
graham christian
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
I honestly don't believe O'Sensei was thinking about dance when he practiced, talked or wrote about Aikido. Looking back on this thread, it appears the OP may have touched on an answer to what can be inferred from O'Sensei's statement "there is no enemy opponent or other in aikido, there is not even a partner"

If that is the case then one question that comes to mind is which Senseis are teaching or doing Osensei's metaphysics?
Rudy.

I don't think you have finished the thought. That thought tells you what there isn't it's up to you to find therefore what there is.

Happy hunting.G.
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:01 PM   #135
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
Everything develops... the Aikido too. We should just keep training
Hello Carina

Surely just training and not bothering about how the art developed leaves us open to the same dilemma as the woman you described. Not to mention that things corrupt as well as develop. This "language" had a particular function envisioned by its creator.

Carl
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Old 04-30-2011, 06:20 PM   #136
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

In my sketch analogy, I left out "artistic license" and those who intentionally ‘draw' their art not only from Osensei's lineage, but also ‘how they like it' or from other arts. It seems to me that even these views can be informative as we trace how aikido was promulgated and purposely/accidentally changed, distorted, "progressed" or watered down by different teachers.

For a start, one thing that is easy to do is to work out how old someone was when the founder was alive and how long they could have trained with him.
Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
For instance:
Quote:
Speaking from experience, I can relate my feelings about being an uchideshi and uke to the Founder, Morihei Ueshiba. Perhaps only those students who actually practiced with the Founder will truly understand my feelings. As full-time students of the Founder
Also are there any counter claims? It seems to me there are many who claim to be Osensei's last uchi deshi.
www.taais.com/The_last_uchideshi_of_Ueshiba.pdf
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:38 PM   #137
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Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham,

You say:

" I don't think you have finished the thought. That thought tells you what there isn't it's up to you to find therefore what there is."

Unlike me you seem to have trained regularly and I have the greatest respect for anyone who has stuck with it for as long as you have. As for me, I left dojo practice for 35 years until this past Friday but I still was on a kind of hunt all that time I guess. Doesn't leave much time left to form the right questions or discover too many right answers however. Just a bit of time to practice and be happy that it's still possible to do so. I don't know what the metaphysics of that is I just know I want to keep showing up for practice.

Best,

Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 04-30-2011 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:48 PM   #138
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Also are there any counter claims? It seems to me there are many who claim to be Osensei's last uchi deshi.
Lots claim to be not only the last but also the closer to him.

Anyway, what is around is: Homma Sensei was born in 1950, started training under Maruyama Shuji Sensei in Akita when he was around 12 years old. Maruyama moved to USA in 1966. Homma Sensei could have trained in Iwama under O Sensei between 1966 and 1969.

Here is a pic of Homma Sensei in Iwama (year 1968).

Entry in Aikido Journal Encyclopedia: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=272

Hirosawa Sensei was born in Iwama in 1937 and started training in aikido in 1958. Claims are he received "the real" from O Sensei himself.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...40&postcount=1

Video of Hirosawa Sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvmIaco_SUQ

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Old 04-30-2011, 08:04 PM   #139
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
I honestly don't believe O'Sensei was thinking about dance when he practiced, talked or wrote about Aikido.
Most certainly not. He was thinking about communicating with kami (shinto gods).
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:07 PM   #140
graham christian
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Graham,

You say:

" I don't think you have finished the thought. That thought tells you what there isn't it's up to you to find therefore what there is."

Unlike me you seem to have trained regularly and I have the greatest respect for anyone who has stuck with it for as long as you have. As for me, I left dojo practice for 35 years until this past Friday but I still was on a kind of hunt all that time I guess. Doesn't leave much time left to form the right questions or discover too many right answers however. Just a bit of time to practice and be happy that it's still possible to do so. I don't know what the metaphysics of that is I just know I want to keep showing up for practice.

Best,

Rudy
Hi Rudy.

'Just a bit of time practice and be happy it's still possible to do so'

Now I do like the metaphysical or spiritual side of it as well as the physical. However, without being facetious may I say that your view is metaphysically perfect.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:49 PM   #141
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Lots claim to be not only the last but also the closer to him.

Anyway, what is around is: Homma Sensei was born in 1950, started training under Maruyama Shuji Sensei in Akita when he was around 12 years old. Maruyama moved to USA in 1966. Homma Sensei could have trained in Iwama under O Sensei between 1966 and 1969.

Here is a pic of Homma Sensei in Iwama (year 1968).

Entry in Aikido Journal Encyclopedia: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=272

Hirosawa Sensei was born in Iwama in 1937 and started training in aikido in 1958. Claims are he received "the real" from O Sensei himself.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...40&postcount=1

Video of Hirosawa Sensei: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvmIaco_SUQ
Yoda?
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:42 AM   #142
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Lots claim to be not only the last but also the closer to him.

Anyway, what is around is: Homma Sensei was born in 1950, started training under Maruyama Shuji Sensei in Akita when he was around 12 years old. Maruyama moved to USA in 1966. Homma Sensei could have trained in Iwama under O Sensei between 1966 and 1969.

Here is a pic of Homma Sensei in Iwama (year 1968).

Entry in Aikido Journal Encyclopedia: http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=272

Hirosawa Sensei was born in Iwama in 1937 and started training in aikido in 1958. Claims are he received "the real" from O Sensei himself.
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpo...40&postcount=1
Thanks. In my opinion, looking objectively for this kind of information is the way to go.

With so many claims, we have to play amateur sleuths to get to the bottom of what the founder's aikido was really like. So one sensei might insist that the founder was strong right until the end of his days, while another claims he was weak and people were taking dives for him. Others say he progressed to ki-no-nagare flowing form aikido as seen in his demonstrations (implying the abandonment of solid-form training) while some students insist he always taught solid basics as a way of reaching that point and that embu were designed to be impossible to steal from. Some say he was based in Tokyo in his later years while some have it that he was still resident in Iwama and merely visited the capital and other locations. I'm sure there are cases where honest enough deshi give conflicting accounts and that it's just a matter of degree while other times ego comes into play...

Just the other day I met a rokudan who said he trained with the founder in a particular location. He said he didn't consider himself a student of the founder, because that was the only keiko he had with Osensei during the last couple of years of his life. I find that kind of self-effacing testimony particularly compelling, not to mention the accounts of local people who knew the founder and have no vested interest.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Yoda?
I first met Hirosawa Shihan after the seminar Demitrio linked to in 2006. In those days he taught basic kotai waza although he was controversial in demonstrating flowing technique a lot. When I attacked him, he never froze me with his kiai or threw me without touching me, but when I got hold of him, I couldn't stop him moving me, despite his encouragement for me to try my best. I get the impression that this at least is typical of anyone who spent any time close to the founder, even now in their old age.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
I was present at this demonstration and to be honest, I've no idea what he was doing. His background is very different from the other "Jedi" doing no-touch throws so I try (it takes some effort) to keep an open mind.

Kind regards

Carl
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Old 05-01-2011, 08:49 AM   #143
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham,

Thank you for the kind words. Since you "like the metaphysical or spiritual side of it as well as the physical" may I ask who else do you know of who currently heads a dojo and shares your orientation? Are any of these kindred spirits currently teaching in the states? I don't think it is too far off topic to ask about this but I do ask for the obvious selfish reasons-- those are my preferences too.

Cheers!

Rudy
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Old 05-01-2011, 09:14 AM   #144
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Carl Thompson wrote: View Post
Thanks. In my opinion, looking objectively for this kind of information is the way to go.

With so many claims, we have to play amateur sleuths to get to the bottom of what the founder's aikido was really like. So one sensei might insist that the founder was strong right until the end of his days, while another claims he was weak and people were taking dives for him. Others say he progressed to ki-no-nagare flowing form aikido as seen in his demonstrations (implying the abandonment of solid-form training) while some students insist he always taught solid basics as a way of reaching that point and that embu were designed to be impossible to steal from. Some say he was based in Tokyo in his later years while some have it that he was still resident in Iwama and merely visited the capital and other locations. I'm sure there are cases where honest enough deshi give conflicting accounts and that it's just a matter of degree while other times ego comes into play...

Just the other day I met a rokudan who said he trained with the founder in a particular location. He said he didn't consider himself a student of the founder, because that was the only keiko he had with Osensei during the last couple of years of his life. I find that kind of self-effacing testimony particularly compelling, not to mention the accounts of local people who knew the founder and have no vested interest.

I first met Hirosawa Shihan after the seminar Demitrio linked to in 2006. In those days he taught basic kotai waza although he was controversial in demonstrating flowing technique a lot. When I attacked him, he never froze me with his kiai or threw me without touching me, but when I got hold of him, I couldn't stop him moving me, despite his encouragement for me to try my best. I get the impression that this at least is typical of anyone who spent any time close to the founder, even now in their old age.

I was present at this demonstration and to be honest, I've no idea what he was doing. His background is very different from the other "Jedi" doing no-touch throws so I try (it takes some effort) to keep an open mind.

Kind regards

Carl
Maybe he thought he would have a giggle to..... otherwise why do it?
I am told Tomiki Sensei frowned frowned upon this kind of thing.... Me? I know it's ridiculous, but some choose to believe it, which is kind of sad don't you think?
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Old 05-01-2011, 10:36 AM   #145
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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"演舞" indeed.

Kentokuseisei
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Old 05-01-2011, 11:38 AM   #146
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Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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"演舞" indeed.
Roughly translated as "play dance"?

Couldn't it be considered a spiritual exercise? Could the final videos of OSensei be viewed not just as as martial artistry but as a Divine Prayer? I don't know. I may just be confused on a very fundamental level that's all. I do believe that anyone who can demonstrate that they combine the Divine and the Physical in an effective Martial Art has got my vote.
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:41 PM   #147
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Roughly translated as "play dance"?
Kent's making a pun. The words for "demonstration of budo" (演武) and "demonstration of dance" (演舞) are both pronounced "embu".

Josh Reyer

The lyf so short, the crafte so longe to lerne,
Th'assay so harde, so sharpe the conquerynge...
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:48 PM   #148
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Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Kent's making a pun. The words for "demonstration of budo" (演武) and "demonstration of dance" (演舞) are both pronounced "embu".
Joshua, Thank you. Then budo is made up of dance moves? I know that at the one summer camp I attended in the 70's there was a Noh Theater troupe which performed for all those in attendance. As a perpetual beginner I've never fully understood what was intended by that.
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Old 05-01-2011, 05:02 PM   #149
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Kent Enfield wrote: View Post
"演舞" indeed.
Josh just beat me to explaining this. As an extra note, this kanji 舞 means dance
Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Maybe he thought he would have a giggle to..... otherwise why do it?
I am told Tomiki Sensei frowned frowned upon this kind of thing.... Me? I know it's ridiculous, but some choose to believe it, which is kind of sad don't you think?
I'm told Osensei frowned on this kind of thing too. It depends who you ask. The founder was known to do kagura-mai 神楽舞 which is a kind of "spiritual dance" (note the kanji) as well as deliberately making his embu difficult to understand. Some allege he even made them look faked on purpose.

In Hirosawa Shihan's case, I also wondered if this was some kind of joke but he told me directly that this demonstration was the real deal. I do find the "sensitivity" expectation required by the other Jedi out there a bit strange as martial practice, especially after having been told off by one of them for not going where I was supposed to go, but Hirosawa Shihan always wanted me to attack full on and had the goods at a basic level. If the magic doesn't work (and at this point, I can't see how it would work), he at least has that to fall back on. The other Jedi don't in my experience so far.

PS: I notice Kent still has Miyagi-ken as his location. Although you may be sick of hearing it by now, I hope things are well with you after the quake and tsunami.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:09 PM   #150
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Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

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Joshua Reyer wrote: View Post
Kent's making a pun. The words for "demonstration of budo" (演武) and "demonstration of dance" (演舞) are both pronounced "embu".
Furthermore, while this demonstration (embu--演武) is from an event with multiple different demonstrations (embu taikai--演武大会) as can be seen on the banner in the background, whoever made this video labeled it, I presume unintentionally, as a "dance performance association" (embukai--演舞会) and had made the pun for me.

I lived in Miyagi until a bit less than two years ago. I'm back in the US. I just had forgotten to update this profile.

Kentokuseisei
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