Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-07-2011, 05:27 PM   #226
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham, Demetrio

How is being in the zone and performing a technique being at one with "creation"? It istnt.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 05:44 PM   #227
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Graham, Demetrio

How is being in the zone and performing a technique being at one with "creation"? It istnt.
Lee. You asking or telling? You ever been at one with the universal?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 05:54 PM   #228
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham,

I have been in the "zone" doing numerous sports, so i know this isnt being at one with creation (unification of the universal).

Doing a technique competently, also isnt being at one with creation.

Im not sure what it is, but as i said in earlier posts, i have a goal, and an idea. Internal training using principals of the ken, yin and yang and correct breathing.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:27 PM   #229
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Graham,

I have been in the "zone" doing numerous sports, so i know this isnt being at one with creation (unification of the universal).

Doing a technique competently, also isnt being at one with creation.

Im not sure what it is, but as i said in earlier posts, i have a goal, and an idea. Internal training using principals of the ken, yin and yang and correct breathing.
Lee.
That sounds fair enough to me. That's your path, enjoy it.

So you are searching. It sounds to me through the terminology you use that you are searching for enlightenment through Aikido. And why not indeed?

Good hunting.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:48 PM   #230
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Graham, Demetrio

How is being in the zone and performing a technique being at one with "creation"? It istnt.
I'm not saying it is the same, I'm saying someone with the education, religious/spiritual tendencies and shamanistic practises of O Sensei could have easily used expressions as "being one with the universe" and the like to define what today is called "being in the zone" or "state of flow".

What is the objective difference between being in a state of flow and being one with the universe?

Are you talking of "Unification with the Universal" as mystical religious ecstasy?

  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:50 PM   #231
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

No Graham, its only THROUGH enlightenment that you find Aikido, you have it the wrong way around.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2011, 06:59 PM   #232
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
No Graham, its only THROUGH enlightenment that you find Aikido, you have it the wrong way around.
If that's so Lee then what is it you are looking to find? Or are you already enlightened?

Let me see if I've got this right.
You have an idea and a goal to reach unification with the universal.

You havn't experienced it but you are practicing principles of Aikido towards that end.

However you need to be enlightened first before you can find it.

How am I doing?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 05:52 AM   #233
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham,

As i said before, i am looking to find Aikido (Unification with the Universal), i have not discovered it, and this will only happen if i am lucky.

Until you become enlightened, you are not practicing Aikido, you are completing a physical form, a Jutsu.

Also you dont seem to get the fact that Aikido can be discovered through other activities such as Bonsai, Calligraphy, Tea Cerempny etc. It is NOT the techniques.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 11:01 AM   #234
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Graham,

As i said before, i am looking to find Aikido (Unification with the Universal), i have not discovered it, and this will only happen if i am lucky.

Until you become enlightened, you are not practicing Aikido, you are completing a physical form, a Jutsu.

Also you dont seem to get the fact that Aikido can be discovered through other activities such as Bonsai, Calligraphy, Tea Cerempny etc. It is NOT the techniques.
I suggest you inspect your own 'logic' rather than just state things and tell others what they do or don't understand Lee.

From your view then tea ceremony, bonsai and calligraphy are also 'jutsu' or physical and thus not Aikido.

You appear to like talking. You like the argument. You like winning the argument. To me you seem fixed and indeed fixated. Hardly Aikido to me.

Good luck. G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 12:39 PM   #235
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Graham,

I have never made any reference to Bonsai, Tea Ceremony or Calligraphy being a Jutsu - this is just nonsensical.

Unification with the Universal can be acheived through the above. As i said before, techniques were tools O'Sensei used to find Aikido. You dont need to do a Jutsu to find Aikido.

And no, i dont like winning an argument. I am in the persuit of Aikido, and improving my understanding.

My ideas are based upon research and discussion with senior Aikidoka. I say again, there is only one Aikido - Arikawas words not mine.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 12:57 PM   #236
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 981
United_States
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Aikido is defined as Unification with the Universal.
You are incorrect. Aikido is defined as the way of aiki.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 01:03 PM   #237
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Another definition is "Way of harmony woth the spirit"

or

AIKI-DO - AIKIDAO - AIKITAO
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 04:35 PM   #238
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Graham,

As i said before, i am looking to find Aikido (Unification with the Universal), i have not discovered it, and this will only happen if i am lucky.

Until you become enlightened, you are not practicing Aikido, you are completing a physical form, a Jutsu.

Also you dont seem to get the fact that Aikido can be discovered through other activities such as Bonsai, Calligraphy, Tea Cerempny etc. It is NOT the techniques.
Graham is a guy who likes arriving at Aikido via... Aikido.
Now, he can hardly be reproached for that.

As a matter of fact, there isn't any eventual and ultimate goal whose name is Aikido. That ultimate thing is NAMELESS. Once you have it, it can assume any name you want to give to it, because its nature is precisely that of being able to lend itself to any use affording immediate command of the field.

You can reach it via many paths - the ones Lee mentions (nothing against them!). Yet, also the one Graham mentions - undoubtedly.

In fact, "Until you become enlightened, you are not practicing Aikido" is an expression that doesn't tell the whole story. For, once you are enlightened, you don't need Aikido anymore.

It is not that you want enlightenment to achieve Aikido: you want Aikido to achieve enlightenment.

So, saying that ""Until you become enlightened, you are not practicing Aikido" is like saying that Until you become enlightened, you are not enlightened - a self evident tautology.

For it is Aikido that is for enlightenment, not enlightenment for Aikido.
Defending the cause of the ultimate enlightenment is a praiseworthy battle, but let's make sure we are not defending it back to front.
You don't live to discover Aikido - you use Aikido to discover life.
You don't engage in life to find out the eventual meaning of Aikido, but you may definitely engage in Aikido to discover the eventual meaning of life.

There are many paths to the same thing, whose eventual name is not even (I repeat) "Aikido"; and the fact there are many means exactly that we are not made all the same.
Some arrive at Rome via car. Others via air. Others via sea. Other pass from China first. Others lose their ways in a brothel. Others swim. Others sail. Others make a mix. Others by train. Others never arrive. Others stay home dreaming of leaving.
Many are missing, and many are killed in action.

Graham wants to go there with Aikido.
Nothing to object.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-08-2011 at 04:45 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 05:21 PM   #239
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,219
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Alberto,

you've certainly got a way with words, nice post!

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 05:24 PM   #240
abraxis
 
abraxis's Avatar
Location: New England
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185
United_States
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Isn't this a discussion about the biochemistry of enlightenment?

OSensei found Aikido by becoming enlightened and became enlightened by doing Aikido.

When any of us does Aikido, or any one of a host of other activities, "right" we have an experience we call enlightenment, being in a zone, standing on a bridge to the divine etc. We then make efforts to provide a verbal description of our private internal feelings.

Feelings brought on by internal biochemical changes resulting from a combination of meditation and physical practice. Nice when you do it right.

Last edited by abraxis : 05-08-2011 at 05:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2011, 09:12 PM   #241
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,817
United_States
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Isn't this a discussion about the biochemistry of enlightenment?

OSensei found Aikido by becoming enlightened and became enlightened by doing Aikido.

When any of us does Aikido, or any one of a host of other activities, "right" we have an experience we call enlightenment, being in a zone, standing on a bridge to the divine etc. We then make efforts to provide a verbal description of our private internal feelings.
Sure. And they're potentially all different. We're like the blind men and the elephant, only instead of using different words to describe one whole, we use the same word to mean different states of mind. In Buddhist tradition, being enlightened simply means being fully present in reality -- simple, but far from easy, or I suppose everybody would be doing it. In that view, statements about aikido leading to enlightenment or enlightenment leading to aikido don't make a whole lot of sense to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 06:58 AM   #242
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 349
England
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Another definition is "Way of harmony woth the spirit"

or

AIKI-DO - AIKIDAO - AIKITAO
I would say that is a rather vague description, not a definition, of aikido.

In its simplest form, yes, "Aikido" means the Way of Aiki. There are several very knowledegable Japanese language experts on this forum, and I am definitely not one of them, but I do understand that In this context it is meaningless to separate "ai" and "ki". There have been several AikiWeb threads on this already.

Alex
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 09:09 AM   #243
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 981
United_States
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Another definition is "Way of harmony woth the spirit"

or

AIKI-DO - AIKIDAO - AIKITAO
FYI, this is actually one popular, but rather licentious interpretation of the kanji.

合 means merging, fitting, together, all, both. I've never really seen any non-hyperbolic reason that this should be translated as "harmony." This kanji is adjectival in nature, it describes the ki.

気 is "spirit," yes, but this is a Japanese concept that lacks many connotations that the English word carries and has many more. It is not a word that carries much meaning by itself, but when combined with a couple other kanji it can mean the essential nature, the numinous force, or that type of thing.

Note that if you take ki and its modifying characters at face value, it can seem very impressively poetic and deep. For example, "spirit of the heavens." Sounds really impressive! Where can I get some of that, it will make me powerful and allow me to crush my enemies! Then of course you find out that tenki means "weather" and while this mystical force did in fact prevent a possible crushing of Japan by Mongol invaders in the 13th century, next time you are caught in the rain without an umbrella you tell me if you find this exposure to the Spirit of the Heavens to be a particularly empowering, spiritual thing.

Basically, though, ki taken by itself does not really mean "THE spirit" or anything like that.

To emphasize something else I have been talking about, 道 means way or path. It doesn't mean destination and it doesn't imply or connote anything great or numinous really, so Lee, you are incorrect in your assertions that Aikido is something we are training towards or striving for. As soon as we step on the mat with the intention of participating in a class we are practicing Aikido. There is no requirement for "enlightenment."

So we're all doing Aikido. If you insist that there is only one, then we're all doing it. There are differences in training pedagogy, including some differences between Saito's organization and the Hombu, but you are not qualified to judge the relative merits of one or the other, sorry. Also, it would just be a "jutsu" difference. It's all O Sensei's Aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 09:24 AM   #244
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Cliff,

Then you are contradicting Arikawa. You carry on believing that if you want, but i know who i believe.

Good luck with the training.

Lee
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 09:56 AM   #245
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 981
United_States
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Cliff,

Then you are contradicting Arikawa. You carry on believing that if you want, but i know who i believe.

Good luck with the training.

Lee
Please provide a quote and a link. You have offered public disrespect in another thread to a gentleman who had a very close, decade-long relationship with Arikawa so you really have no right to invoke the name in support of your arguments here.

I don't believe you have a good enough understanding of Japanese martial culture to be basing your convictions on what one shihan has said. It is the nature of a shihan to use hyperbolic and evocative language to speak about their art. Speaking directly and succinctly is somewhat uncouth in general in Japanese culture, but more to the point, shihan are tasked with the very grave duty of being their art in human form. When they speak about it to outside people they need to take care that their words are a lesson, something that inspires and drives you in your training. This is much more important than being specific, offering an answer to your literal question, or being consistent with what they said yesterday.

If you approach the words spoken by a high-level Japanese martial arts teacher too literally, and make them into a dogma, you are destined for nothing but trouble. You restrict your own growth. You are also being presumptuous and lazy to no end by assuming you really understand what was being said and that nothing further can be said about it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 10:13 AM   #246
Maarten De Queecker
Dojo: Aikikai Gent, Brugse Aikido Vereniging
Location: Bruges
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 139
Belgium
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
There have been a lot of interesting comments on this thread.

However, the numerous references to individual Aikido are wrong. There is only ONE Aikido – unification of body and mind with the universal, not my words Arikawa.

What everyone is alluding to is an individual’s interpretation of implementation of the techniques. However, the techniques ARE NOT Aikido.

Aikido can also be found in Calligraphy, Bonsai, Tea Ceremony etc.

O’Sensei used the martial arts, Ju-Jitsu, to find Aikido.

Aikido IS NOT about a physical manifestation, it is a spiritual joining between ones self and the universal/creation.

Just by repeated training of the physical budo will not lead to Aikido. This is why only few reach such a level.

IMHO only O’Sensei and Kanshu Sunadomari have reached it.

This is what I was talking about. The Aikido that O’Sensei produced can only be attained not just by earnest physical training, but by a spiritual enlightening.

You can train 24/7, 365 days a year, but will only become competent in execution of techniques, not Aikido.
No offense, but most people I've encountered who also believe stuff like this are generally people frustrated at their own lack of progress compared to other, more talented people and use said 'true aikido' idea to convince themselves they're actually better while in fact, they are not.

Aikido is a martial art. If your technique is bad, your aikido sucks. It's really that simple. Aikido is a martial art and one does not learn how to deal with potential physical conflicts by meditating under a waterfall.

99% of O Sensei's aikido was achieved by rigorous training in various martial arts from a very young age, and actually engaging in combat. The guy was a warrior, a samurai pur sang, not a monk. Aikido is basically a combat system. One of the most difficult around because not harming an opponent is way more difficult than destroying him. It also requires a completely different mindset. O Sensei's enlightenment was probably a "Eureka"-moment in which he discovered that the techniques he was taught can also be used to softly immobilize and convince (an) attacker(s) that more conflict is not necessary and not in their best interest.

Last edited by Maarten De Queecker : 05-09-2011 at 10:15 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 10:15 AM   #247
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Cliff,

The source is a book written by Pierre Chassang, i only have it in hard copy, where it is a discussion between him and Arikawa.

I at least provide sources for my information, you have not.

All i can do is refer to discussions and material i have had access to. If there are others who have trained with Arikawa for years, then i would be interested to hear their opinion. I HAVE NOT offered any disrespect so please withdraw this accusation.

If anything it is your growth that is restricted because all you have done is dismissed my comments, which at least are traceable to senior Aikidoka, you have provided no evidence whatsoever.

Also you are making assumptions of my knowledge and experience.
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 10:18 AM   #248
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Maarten,

If your technique sucks, your technique sucks. It has nothing to do with Aikido.

Aikido is a combats system? Then how can you find Aikido in the Tea Ceremony, Bonsai, Calligraphy etc?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 10:27 AM   #249
Lee Crockett
Dojo: Chichester
Location: Portsmouth
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 56
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Maarten,

One of the most significant periods in O'Senseis life was his time with Onisabaru Deguchi. Do you really not think this had a significant affect on his development of Aikido?
  Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2011, 10:44 AM   #250
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Are we really doing O'Senseis Aikido?

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Maarten,

One of the most significant periods in O'Senseis life was his time with Onisabaru Deguchi. Do you really not think this had a significant affect on his development of Aikido?
If O sensei were not able to kick ass because his technique sucked, Deguchi would not had hired him as bodyguard and much less had put him on charge of Budo Senyokai.

Get a clue, please.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Aikido DVDs and Video Downloads - by George Ledyard Sensei & other great teachers from AikidoDVDS.Com



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 122 02-10-2010 05:39 PM
The continued Evolution of Aikido salim General 716 12-27-2008 11:00 PM
Baseline skillset eyrie Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 1633 05-23-2008 02:35 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 05:52 AM
Two things. Veers General 8 04-04-2003 02:54 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:23 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate