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Old 04-21-2011, 08:17 AM   #26
chillzATL
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Tony,

I don't see these clique's you're talking about. I see people who discuss things, agree and disagree and do so without ever making things personal, what you call "harmless ribbing". It's funny that you constantly try to excuse your actions as "being real" or "harmless ribbing". Nobody here knows you and they're instantly not going to be interested in knowing you when the first things you have to say to anyone is cracking jokes about them being aiki-bunnies and then taking it much further than that in a lot of cases. You quite obviously see that the way you say things, not what you sway, irritates some people, yet you don't care to adjust. You just shrug it off that people don't get you, they're all softies and they need to man up. You know that attitude doesn't work face-to-face, why would you think it would work here? Because you're behind a computer and not face-to-face? You may say that you're the same way all the time, but I just don't buy it. Your intial introduction to people you meet "out there" can't be to automatically start pointing out their faults as you see them. If it were you would have no friends and nobody would want to know you, and I don't get that impression from you. So again, why do you think that sort of thing is acceptable here?

I've been on the internet since before it was the internet and I've seen many a person lose themselves (myself included) behind the facade of semi-anonymous discussions, where they amp up their personality because they know they're talking to people they'll likely never meet. I think that's part of your problem and you don't seem to care to push things further than you would otherwise. It's a shame because with your background, you probably have some good things to say that people would get something out of.

Also, your notion that people should train harder and take their training more seriously isn't anything new here. If you spent some time getting to know people before trying to take the piss out of them you might surprise yourself.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:33 AM   #27
Dan Rubin
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I am rather blunt, matter of fact and will say things that maybe those of sensitive sensitivities may not like, but even as George L who has pointed out.... why don't you click the ignore button?
I'm just being the real me, no gang, no BS, no hidden agenda.... Excuse my ignorance, but I just cannot see where some of you are coming from at times, they ramble on about the in and outs of such and such without getting to the point, or eventually arrive there after much rear wind.
Well, Tony, "why don't you click the ignore button?"

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I will repeat, and will keep repeating that you are not doing "aikido" you are doing martial dance and that is all there is to it.....
Perhaps you would have more influence if you stopped repeating that.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:39 AM   #28
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.

If a kid is bullied online that would be a different situation.

Pauliina
Words can be very powerful Paulina..... Just as the written word?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:40 AM   #29
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Dan Rubin wrote: View Post
Well, Tony, "why don't you click the ignore button?"

Perhaps you would have more influence if you stopped repeating that.
Why? Do you dance?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:48 AM   #30
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Words can be very powerful Paulina..... Just as the written word?
I don't know what you mean exactly?

Pauliina
 
Old 04-21-2011, 08:54 AM   #31
Marc Abrams
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Happy slap on the back chappies? I can see through you like glass Marc...... I'm not the one disguising their disgust so thinly veiled.....
Have I actually insulted you yet? Methinks not , but you are very, very sensitive, now that is obvious..... I really wonder why?
Tony:

I am so glad that you can see through me like glass! Maybe you can enlighten me as to why I am so very, very sensitive? There actually is no disgust with you from my side. I frankly think that we would enjoy training together and tossing back some suds afterwards. That is why I invited you to the Ushiro Sensei seminar. That is why I strongly suggested you go to the Harden seminar (you would get along with him as well).

To me, it is simply tiresome to hear the same litany of complaints, hidden behind the veil of a common-man who speaks a simple truth. To me, I would appreciate a dose of integrity and candor on your part by meeting at least one of the two people I mentioned, and then hear back from you as to whether or not your position on things was perhaps inaccurate. To me, your blame game is simply an immaturity of character. From my perspective, you have simply not gained the wisdom that can accompany age.

Marc Abrams
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:02 AM   #32
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony:

I am so glad that you can see through me like glass! Maybe you can enlighten me as to why I am so very, very sensitive? There actually is no disgust with you from my side. I frankly think that we would enjoy training together and tossing back some suds afterwards. That is why I invited you to the Ushiro Sensei seminar. That is why I strongly suggested you go to the Harden seminar (you would get along with him as well).

To me, it is simply tiresome to hear the same litany of complaints, hidden behind the veil of a common-man who speaks a simple truth. To me, I would appreciate a dose of integrity and candor on your part by meeting at least one of the two people I mentioned, and then hear back from you as to whether or not your position on things was perhaps inaccurate. To me, your blame game is simply an immaturity of character. From my perspective, you have simply not gained the wisdom that can accompany age.

Marc Abrams
Then why take rancour at my posts? If it didn't affect you as much as you say it doesn't, why do you bite at the slightest suggestion that it does?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:04 AM   #33
akiy
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Once again:

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

-- Jun

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Old 04-21-2011, 09:04 AM   #34
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
I don't know what you mean exactly?

Pauliina
You were on about online bullying?
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:26 AM   #35
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
You were on about online bullying?
Yes, when children are involved I think it's important for adults to step in a protect them even just from words. But the most effective way to do that I think would probably be to confront and deal with the bullies in real life.

I don't think the disagreements on Aikiweb go so far that I would call them online bullying though. And everyone involved as far as I know is quite grown up, so I don't feel like they need that much protecting.

I do try to choose my own words carefully though.

Pauliina
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:30 AM   #36
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
Once again:

Just a quick reminder to please keep your discussions directed toward the topic rather than directed towards the people behind the topic. Let's refrain from making things personal, shall we?

-- Jun
Hey Jun, much as your post is to get people to lighten up, it's not me who is getting upset here, I just ask why?
It interests me greatly that people can get so worked up about honest, frank points of view or answers.... Sorry I'm so sharp but I am being honest..... Really...
I ask people to show me what they can do and it does not impress me much, or they hide what it is as they are not wanting to show? DH? What's that all about? I'm just looking for the "martial" in their "aikido" or methods, thought and how they arrive at their conclusions, so far a lot of it just doesn't move me, maybe this is where it's all really at?
You tell me?
The impression I get is "aikido" is moving towards a new age philosophical health system with very little to do with "Martial Arts"
I know what your stance is on this so I understand that you may not comment, that is fair enough, it's your site and power to you, but if we can't say things without people going all "snotty" and getting over sensitive, where do we go? If you ban me for life? No big deal, but think how dull it will become because people are too timid to say what they really think..... I just happen to be one of 'em...

Take care......

Tony
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:36 AM   #37
C. David Henderson
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Tony,

If one really doesn't care how people react to bluntness, ribbing, and ribald humor, one can't really complain about the reaction.

If one cares, your tag line suggests that, like all truth, admission is something the person owes to themselves.

I wish you well.

David Henderson
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:42 AM   #38
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
Yes, when children are involved I think it's important for adults to step in a protect them even just from words. But the most effective way to do that I think would probably be to confront and deal with the bullies in real life.

I don't think the disagreements on Aikiweb go so far that I would call them online bullying though. And everyone involved as far as I know is quite grown up, so I don't feel like they need that much protecting.

I do try to choose my own words carefully though.

Pauliina
Nice, I agree with you, I just like to be frank and to the point, I know my "dodgy" humour may not help but I find I can laugh at most things in life even "aikido" Maybe if people laughed more, there would be less bullying? I know where you are coming from as I was bullied a lot in my school youth and was very, very sensitive. I have knocked that out of myself as it is a kind of debilitating fear that no one should have to put up with, but alas it exists everyday, not just in the schools but in the workplace as well, even on here... but it happens to be in a different guise, it's called snobbery and being way to over sensitive.
It can be be overcome, but it has to come from each and every one of us....
Nice of you to answer.....
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:49 AM   #39
Pauliina Lievonen
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

The beauty of online discussions I think is that there are technical solutions that don't exist in real life. In real life you can't always avoid a bully because they can follow you and get in your face. But here if I thought someone was bullying me I would just put them on my ignore list. After that they could go on and say whatever they want but what I don't read doesn't really hurt me does it? Then there would be only my own morbid curiosity to deal with.

Pauliina
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:50 AM   #40
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Tony,

If one really doesn't care how people react to bluntness, ribbing, and ribald humor, one can't really complain about the reaction.

If one cares, your tag line suggests that, like all truth, admission is something the person owes to themselves.

I wish you well.
Yes, its the reaction I am interested in how they are doing that....

You take care too.....

Last edited by akiy : 04-21-2011 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:52 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
The beauty of online discussions I think is that there are technical solutions that don't exist in real life. In real life you can't always avoid a bully because they can follow you and get in your face. But here if I thought someone was bullying me I would just put them on my ignore list. After that they could go on and say whatever they want but what I don't read doesn't really hurt me does it? Then there would be only my own morbid curiosity to deal with.

Pauliina
Aye aye...
 
Old 04-21-2011, 09:57 AM   #42
akiy
 
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Hey Jun, much as your post is to get people to lighten up, it's not me who is getting upset here, I just ask why?
My asking for people to refrain from making things personal is not directed towards whether people are being "upset" nor "honest." Rather, it is about whether people are discussing the topic or the people behind the topic. When posts are filled with "you are" and "you think," I'd reckon that those posts are targeting the person rather than the topic at hand. Doing so, in my mind and experience, often creates unnecessary friction through assumptions, attacks upon the person, and aggression sometimes -- all of which get in the way of civil discussion.

Once again, I am fine with controversial topics and people who have differing opinions. What I am talking about is not that, but rather to make sure that the direction of these discussions remain on-topic rather than becoming personal.

Quote:
I know what your stance is on this so I understand that you may not comment, that is fair enough, it's your site and power to you, but if we can't say things without people going all "snotty" and getting over sensitive, where do we go? If you ban me for life? No big deal, but think how dull it will become because people are too timid to say what they really think..... I just happen to be one of 'em...
I think you are responding to my posts asking for respectful dialogue with a discussion of what to talk about. Those are two entirely different topics, in my mind. To clarify, again, I am not talking about what people here discuss but how they discuss it. I am all for people saying "what they really think," as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- and that includes (if I may borrow more of your words) those who are being "honest" and being "oversensitive" both.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

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Old 04-21-2011, 10:01 AM   #43
Hellis
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
The best way I've found to deal with people both online and in real life, is to only react to what I perceive as an insult if it's directed to me. And the most effective reaction so far seem to be to just say "I think that's insulting.". Usually if the other person didn't actually mean to be insulting, they tell me so, and all's well again. If they did in fact mean to be insulting, well, now they know that they succeeded and I know that they're a person I don't want to waste my time on.

If the remark wasn't actually directed at me, I wouldn't be surprised to get a response of "what's it to you" or something along those lines. So I leave it to other people to respond to insults that are directed at them.

In my experience trying to teach other people or somehow influence how they behave online is futile. I wish people would just stop doing it, but of course I can't make anyone do that either.

Pauliina
Paulina

You make a good response which I believe Tony may have initially misunderstood ??
Children aside - I agree - I don't see how people can allow themselves to be bullied
on the internet, I know it takes place and I know people respond to it, I have even read of people committing suicide over it. I still don't understand it - some threads I occasionally follow, other may just get one visit........I do accept that many on here are overly sensitive
and I sometimes wince at their hurt.

Henry Ellis
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:21 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Jun Akiyama wrote: View Post
My asking for people to refrain from making things personal is not directed towards whether people are being "upset" nor "honest." Rather, it is about whether people are discussing the topic or the people behind the topic. When posts are filled with "you are" and "you think," I'd reckon that those posts are targeting the person rather than the topic at hand. Doing so, in my mind and experience, often creates unnecessary friction through assumptions, attacks upon the person, and aggression sometimes -- all of which get in the way of civil discussion.

Once again, I am fine with controversial topics and people who have differing opinions. What I am talking about is not that, but rather to make sure that the direction of these discussions remain on-topic rather than becoming personal.

I think you are responding to my posts asking for respectful dialogue with a discussion of what to talk about. Those are two entirely different topics, in my mind. To clarify, again, I am not talking about what people here discuss but how they discuss it. I am all for people saying "what they really think," as long as it's done in a respectful manner -- and that includes (if I may borrow more of your words) those who are being "honest" and being "oversensitive" both.

Hope that helps,

-- Jun
It does, I haven't resorted to insults yet as that would turn the air blue, but we won't go there.... a bit of needle maybe, but insults naaah!
 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:02 AM   #45
Cliff Judge
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I am now getting to the point that "aikido" as a "martial" art is degenerating more into martial "fart"
He who smelt it, dealt it.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:47 AM   #46
Keith Larman
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Well, groups almost always form. The problem with evaluating this, however, is that sometimes the dynamic is a sort of negative thing, others it is simply what happens when people who are experienced and who have similar views are in the same place. You can call it a clique if you don't agree, but if that group is disagreeing with you out of their honest and valid experience, well, maybe it is time to pay a little attention to what they're saying? Sometimes there is the one or two guys valiantly fighting against an oppressive status quo. Yup, that happens all too often on on-line forums. Most everyone disagreeing with you should cause you to reflect. Either you're right and everyone else is wrong *or* maybe you should pay attention to what they're actually saying. Because maybe, just maybe, you're reading their opinions through a filter of your biases of those things you hate.

Honestly I don't disagree with *some* of your comments about the quality of Aikido as displayed by many in the world of Aikido. However, I also find blanket, automatic condemnation of anything other than a certain view close-minded and provincial.

Me, I train in an offshoot from Tohei sensei that focused on maintaining his exercises, his theories, but also keeping it firmly grounded and effective. No ki-balls flying here. We split off 30 years ago. I also try to keep an open mind and I hit whatever seminars I can. I've had the opportunity to train with shodothugs. And with Harden and Sigman. Hope to get on the mat with Popkin and Ushiro one of these days. I've also been lucky enough to have been invited on occasion to train with people from old stuff that usually don't invite outsiders (occupational benefits). None of this indicates that I find my style insufficient. None of it indicates that I think any one style is any better than any other because answering that question requires a much larger discussion on why people are training. The reality is that my life has been spent as a full-time student -- I just love learning new stuff. So what's my point? To everyone, open your minds. If someone wants to be hyper critical, well, fine. I reserved judgement of Dan until I met him because a lot of what he wrote seemed familiar to me and not "revolutionary" per se. Just more of what I had always been looking for in all my studies. I very much enjoy time I've spent with Toby Threadgill because it's like looking into a window of 150 years ago. More like where we came from which really helps understand what we do today. And to notice the vestiges of the past in our stuff that we maybe don't fully understand.

Anyway... Being critical is fine, especially if you've got the stuff to back it up. Being dismissive of things you simply have never seen is foolish. Which makes the criticism hollow at best.

Yeah, cliques form. Whether that is good or bad really depends. When the clique is composed of multiple people with 30+ years experience who get together with folk outside their arts to actually pressure test their stuff honestly and fairly, well, sometimes, maybe one should not be quite so dismissive of that group.

'nuff from me. I will admit to tremendous forum fatigue.

End of Keith's long ramble of the month...

 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:48 AM   #47
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
He who smelt it, dealt it.
Beginning with Whom? I'm not the only one......
 
Old 04-21-2011, 11:53 AM   #48
Keith Larman
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I'll also comment that there are always folk on the very extremes. Yeah, I look sideways at things I see as silly and weird. Mostly I just don't comment because I honestly couldn't possibly care any less. I think the point here is to realize that, for better or worse, Aikido did morph into a very large and diverse thing. Not all Aikido is the same, it hasn't been for a very long time. There are many pursuing what I personally think of as Aikido as seen through the lens of "new age" spiritualism. That's just not for me. That said I wish the best to those who pursue that end. So I shrug and move on.

Some on the other extreme see Aikido as basically a very hard jujutsu and (in my view) seem to miss out on a lot of the subtle stuff that gave O-sensei and even the founders of these styles a lot of their power. Some seem to focus on the omote of what they saw but miss the ura (again, IMO). That's also not for me. But again, more power to those who do see it as a good thing. So I shrug

I guess I shrug a lot...

 
Old 04-21-2011, 12:07 PM   #49
lbb
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Pauliina Lievonen wrote: View Post
Online, among adults, yes. An "attack" online is just words. I expect adults to be able to survive that.
By talking about "surviving", you're taking the argument to the extreme. You don't really believe that an appropriate reaction to witnessing any non-lethal attack is to stand around with your hands in your pockets, do you? Even if we're confining matters to verbal attacks, I think there are some points you're missing. If (for example) someone uses a racial epithet in speaking to someone else, do you really feel that it's inappropriate for anyone else to say, "Hey, that ain't right"? Because that's the kind of thing we're talking about here.
 
Old 04-21-2011, 12:12 PM   #50
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is Aikiweb an open Aikido Forum ? Or is it a

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Tony.
I'm fascinated and 'honoured' once again to be mentioned by you.

I think there are cliques in all walks of life including here so that is normal. The truth is it is not those who get you banned it is you who get yourself banned.

I am one of the many who you remark upon. So what. I don't find what you say funny or hurtful or anything really. However I do see you getting yourself into trouble again. Can you not see why? Really?

If you want to know my true feelings about you they are that you have no doubt in the past put many years into your Aikido and got yourself up to a good level. Go teach, live it, enjoy it. I truly believe that when you do that and are happy and successful at it you will have no need to criticise others.

Is everyone attacking me for being me or is there something about my communication I should change? (maybe that's the real question)

Anyway, being a clique of one that almost makes us partners.

Enjoy, G.
Actually Graham I'm still in disbelief at your videos...... I have looked at every one of them..... I just find it hard to believe that you can equate what you do as a martial art? I have to be honest and say it looks more like afternoon tea at Graham's....
I'm sorry Graham I'm not into disliking people so much, there are plenty of those around, but you sound like a nice guy, I'm sure you are, but what what you bring up or express as aikido as a "martial art" is somehow a little misleading?
I will be honest and say what you are doing is more akin to some kind of health pastime with some connection to "aikido"? Can I presume that is what you are actually doing? Maybe a Japanese version of Tai Chi for health as a comparison...?
Please enlighten me......
 

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