Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Techniques

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-02-2002, 08:05 PM   #1
efredeluces
Dojo: SBMA Aikido Dojo
Location: Olongapo, Phillippines
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
Tongue kotegaishi

Our dojo now switch from traditional to modern arts and when my sensei demonstrated kotegaishi It gave me reasons to research on this.

the traditional art is leading you uke first in a circular way making him face opposite when he attacks distracting the balance then applying the pin by twisting opposite his balance.

the modern art is applied by moving backward applying an almost downward parry to the hand using unbendable arms then applying the pin only this time not twisting but forward the opponent while pulling him towards you.

my question is, which is most effective ? and are there any other versions of the same art ?

thanks.

Quote:
FROM strength learn gentleness THRU gentleness achieve strength.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2002, 08:27 PM   #2
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,055
Japan
Offline
I am curious what you mean by switching from traditional to modern.

Both versions can work equally well.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2002, 10:25 PM   #3
Greg Jennings
Dojo: None at the moment.
Location: Springboro, OH
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,098
United_States
Offline
Re: kotegaishi

Quote:
Originally posted by efredeluces
my question is, which is most effective ? and are there any other versions of the same art ?
I typically don't like to get in the position of pulling my partner. I especially don't like to pull them toward me. It's something of a bad position to be in from a tactical perspective.

There are a great many variations of kotegaeshi. My particular favorite is to keep uke's hand very low to keep him off balance to his front/rear. Then I stop the momentum of his upper body by taking the slack out of the connection. Uke's body pivots around his center of mass and his feet therefore run out from under him.

Some of my friends named this "The Montgomery Plop" variation.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2002, 08:05 AM   #4
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
There are probably as many way to apply waza as there are people and situations. We (Tenshinkai Aikido) tend to practice both the full tenkan movement and the faster one you mentioned. Actually, we sometime even enter and blend fast so we can use their forward momemtum to apply ura and omote. We do tend to provide a slight lead/pull to facilitate the unbalancing and to give their mind a little something to think about (falling).

IMHO, the effectiveness has more to do with you, your training, and the situation than the waza.

Until again,

Lynn
Nidan Tenshinkai Aikido
Lucaylucay Kali JKD

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 06:26 AM   #5
Napoleon
Location: England
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5
Offline
In my dojo, we alter the technique depending on the situation; kote-gaeshi has been practiced where I train against knife attacks in conjunction with other techniques and atemi, and when a knife is involved, there is never a leading-uke motion, it's always done by distancing uke's hand from his body and, I suppose, applying the throw by simply twisting his wrist outwards and downwards to unbalance him, though we often use some small movements in the back leg to break his balance further. When no knife is used, we usually use the more textbook, flashy, impressive method
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 07:26 AM   #6
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Mr Nixon,

Have you ever trained with Eric Beake? Eric and I used to train together in the old Ryushinkan in Albany Street, London, and it was Eric who first emphasised (to me) the importace of seeing kote-gaeshi as a knife attack, probably with an attacker who will not attack and simply stand there to allow the technique to work.

With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 03:25 PM   #7
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?
Are you asking us?

This reminds me of the way the patrician State Department language teacher Earl Stevick characterized most language classes: "Say something so I can tell you how well you said it." I think Goldsbury Sensei must have finished checking the pile of papers on his desk and is now ready for some comic relief.

Bearing in mind Nietzsche's admonition that the attraction to education would be small indeed if we didn't have to overcome so much shame along the way, I'll report the fruits of my own investigations knowing 1) that Peter is a gentleman, and 2) that his keyboard won't convey guffaws to the distraction of the forum.

Ahem.

With the caveat that "straight atemi" hints at trick question--why specify straight?--I'll venture that my own rule of thumb is to apply ATEMI before, during, and sometimes after the attack.

Before the attack, the ATEMI--here, I suppose it would be a "straight" ATEMI--functions as a distractor. I direct it between his eyes with my right hand if he's attacking with his right hand. It disrupts his breathing, breaks his momentum (and usually balance as well) and redirects his gaze allowing me time to situate my hand on his arm--whether or not I hit him.

During the attack, I like to pop UKE as he breaks the corner of my TENKAN. This is an uppercut. Indeed, I like an ATEMI at all transitions--breaking a pivot, going under arms, etc. If he has closed on me, I throw a front leg front kick into his groin and pop him again. Again, during training, I don't actually make contact.

After he hits the ground, I may jab him once in the ribs if I've missed my timing rolling him over and he does the curl up into rigor motis routine. Patty Saotome demonstrated a very nice ATEMI on me once when I was resisting in this position; she drove her thumb into the recess behind my ear and I rolled right over. Short, but effective.

"The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective."

This sentence throws me. "Straight", I've already mentioned; and then there's "most". If he knocks himself out running into my first ATEMI, then that was most effective, eh what?

Over to you, Peter.

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:48 PM   #8
Napoleon
Location: England
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 5
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Mr Nixon,

Have you ever trained with Eric Beake? Eric and I used to train together in the old Ryushinkan in Albany Street, London, and it was Eric who first emphasised (to me) the importace of seeing kote-gaeshi as a knife attack, probably with an attacker who will not attack and simply stand there to allow the technique to work.
It's difficult to see whether you're being sarcastic, i.e. a bit of a twat, or are genuinely interested in what I said. If the latter is true, the way we perform kote-gaeshi in my club against a knife doesn't rely on the attacker being willing to be taken down; you use the movement of the legs to assist the technique at speed in order to force uke to the floor, applying a pin once he's there.
If, however, you were in fact being a sarcastic wanker, then I suggest using more speed than that of a disabled turtle in techniques. Ahem indeed.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 05:50 PM   #9
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury


With kote-gaeshi, especially done as an 'ura' technique, you always need to get into a position to do atemi. The interesting question is where the straight atemi is most effective. Any ideas?

Best regards,
Hello Don,

Here are a couple more questions as grist to the mill.

1. I have seen many kotegaeshi techniques where the atemi focuses on the attacking hand or arm. How do you feel about this? (And 'straight' was merely meant to indicate timing rther than direction: it comes at the same time as the attack).

2. An eminent sensei once taught me that the taisabaki for kotegaeshi and irimi-nage should be similar. This is not what the late Doshu used to do, by the way. Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?

Background: the way O Sensei does kotegaeshi in 'Budo Renshu'.

And now back to the piles of paper on my desk...

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 06:00 PM   #10
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Napoleon

It's difficult to see whether you're being sarcastic, i.e. a bit of a twat, or are genuinely interested in what I said. If the latter is true, the way we perform kote-gaeshi in my club against a knife doesn't rely on the attacker being willing to be taken down; you use the movement of the legs to assist the technique at speed in order to force uke to the floor, applying a pin once he's there.
If, however, you were in fact being a sarcastic wanker, then I suggest using more speed than that of a disabled turtle in techniques. Ahem indeed.
Mr Nixon,

My question was a straighforward, and friendly, question about the way a friend of mine used to do a technique, plus a question as to whether you knew him, since, like I used to do, you train in the UK.

Whether you respond to the question in the spirit it was asked is, of course, up to you. But if you look at my other posts on this and other bulletin boards, I hope you will agree that I think sarcasm is inappropriate in a discussion forum.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 07:22 PM   #11
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,055
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?
Staying clear of this one for a bit. Very interesting premise. I will only say that Tomiki classed techniques into basic groups based on their dominant feature but I would think it incorrect to say that it was their only feature. I think that kotegaishi without kuzushi is very difficult to accomplish - but you don't need to apply atemi to effect that.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2002, 09:06 PM   #12
akiy
 
akiy's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,851
Offline
Hi Albert,

Please be aware that the first rule of posting here at the AikiWeb Forums is "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect." You language and manner in responding to Peter Goldsbury was not very respectful and inappropriate in these Forums. I'll ask you to please be careful in the future in the manner in which you respond here.

Regards,

-- Jun

Please help support AikiWeb -- become an AikiWeb Contributing Member!
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 05:21 PM   #13
Don_Modesto
Dojo: Messores Sensei (Largo, Fl.)
Location: Florida
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,267
Offline
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
1. I have seen many kotegaeshi techniques where the atemi focuses on the attacking hand or arm. How do you feel about this? (And 'straight' was merely meant to indicate timing rther than direction: it comes at the same time as the attack).

2. An eminent sensei once taught me that the taisabaki for kotegaeshi and irimi-nage should be similar. This is not what the late Doshu used to do, by the way. Our Shodokan friend Peter Rehse said somewhere that irimi-nage was an atemi technique. I think he is right, but would you say the same for kotegaeshi?

3. Background: the way O Sensei does kotegaeshi in 'Budo Renshu'.,
I'd guess that these are more suggestions than questions so I'll be thinking of them next time I'm dodging TSUKI or doing IRIMI NAGE. For the sake of discussion, though:

1. Hadn't thought of it. I imagine a strike inducing that heart-cringing, fire up the arm kind of pain which takes your breath away would provide a very tidy distraction for NAGE. I think I'd want to do it with my elbow, though, rather than try to get a knuckle accurately into metatarsals in such proximity to UKE's own knucles. A good shot to the soft parts of forearm or upper arm (or funny bone) would debilitate, too, I should think.

2. As regards TAISABAKE, the way I do the two, I'd have to go deeper on KOTEGAESHI to make them similar. Will try it.

As regards IRIMINAGE as ATEMI, um, er...I hadn't thought of that either. This might partly be because of the model to which I'm aspiring to emulate at the moment. Both Ikeda Hiroshi and Mary Heini do this wonderful version where UKE basically walks his legs out from under him/herself with very little or none of the standard clotheslining usually done with this technique. I can certainly see it as ATEMI, though. Actually, as many times as my KOTEGAESHI has failed I tend to regard that IN THE MAIN as ATEMI. Unfortunately, I tend to regard NIKYO through YONKYO that way, too.

3. Curling UKE's hand tightly into itself being the Budo version? At a Kawabe DR seminar in NY last year that gentleman showed me to align my knuckles with UKE's and concentrate on the forearm rather than the
hand, noting laconically: "Kote is kote and wrist is wrist".

(Albert! It's worse than sarcasm--it's homework! Sheesh!)

(Thanks, Peter.)

Don J. Modesto
St. Petersburg, Florida
------------------------
http://www.theaikidodojo.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 06:53 PM   #14
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 893
Offline
Say what?

Are we talking about a wrist twist, or are we argueing on the moot court bench about tomatoes or to-my-toes?

I was reviewing some of my Wally Jay jujitsu, and although he doesn't call it kotegaeshi the movement activates the same response within the same rotational movements ... only with fingers instead of across the back of the hand.

Question is ... what balance does the opponent have which will allow you to produce the desired result? I think we all agree that all techniques depend on distraction, balance, and using the position of your opponent to your advantage. So whether you pull, push, distract, or create an opening for kotegaeshi, there must be an opening for it to make it happen.

Sometimes I think you guys start to lose all common sense? It shouldn't matter if the movement is in Aikido, jujitsu, karate, or even the Defendo courses of WWI, if it works then it is useful by whatever method it takes to get there, or whatever it is called.

De-fend-O? Yeah, another form of jujitsu taught by a man who learned pressure points and jujitsu in the early 1900s.

There may or may not be some videos about.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 09:12 PM   #15
jk
Location: Indonesia
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 245
Offline
Oh great, we get homework too...

<a raised hand from the back of the class>

Professor Goldsbury,

After leafing through a copy of "Budo Training in Aikido" (English translation of "Budo Renshu"), I seemed to have missed the kotegaeshi portion...would you mind pointing out which technique # it's under?

Regards,
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2002, 11:16 PM   #16
efredeluces
Dojo: SBMA Aikido Dojo
Location: Olongapo, Phillippines
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
I am curious what you mean by switching from traditional to modern.

Both versions can work equally well.


Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.

I'm really more concern about the effectivity of the two versions coz my nephew and I tested both with a knife & ice pick. both were successful with a knife but the newer seem a little akward to use with a longer weapon as it the weapon tend to penetrate the front knee of nage.

Happy training ...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 12:29 AM   #17
PeterR
 
PeterR's Avatar
Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
Location: Himeji, Japan
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 3,055
Japan
Offline
Hi Elmer;

I asked because I consider the more direct methods to be the older (traditional) way. In one sense it is unfortunate that you have to change sensei but in another you have a good chance to see another way of doing things.

I suspect you felt a little akward because its new but also even the more "direct" methods require you to move off-line. Your distancing might not be quite right either - experiment a bit. Try to use something a little less hairy than an ice-pick. Visions of pierced knee-caps.

Budo Renshu is traditional. Dynamic Sphere is - well the drawings are artfully done.
Quote:
Originally posted by efredeluces



Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.

I'm really more concern about the effectivity of the two versions coz my nephew and I tested both with a knife & ice pick. both were successful with a knife but the newer seem a little akward to use with a longer weapon as it the weapon tend to penetrate the front knee of nage.

Happy training ...

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 01:21 AM   #18
efredeluces
Dojo: SBMA Aikido Dojo
Location: Olongapo, Phillippines
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Hi Elmer;

I asked because I consider the more direct methods to be the older (traditional) way. In one sense it is unfortunate that you have to change sensei but in another you have a good chance to see another way of doing things.

I suspect you felt a little akward because its new but also even the more "direct" methods require you to move off-line. Your distancing might not be quite right either - experiment a bit. Try to use something a little less hairy than an ice-pick. Visions of pierced knee-caps.

Budo Renshu is traditional. Dynamic Sphere is - well the drawings are artfully done.
Hello again,

Thanks, you might be right I still need to get more adopt to this new techniques. Guest I've gotten used to the previous that its almost an instinct when I move. We practiced with icepick coz its the ussual weapon that we see here but well who wants pierce knees he he guest well have to use the old wooden knives for the next practice.

Thanks and have a nice day..

Quote:
truthfullness in practice does not give one the courage to fight but the knowledge to avoid troubles.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 11:26 AM   #19
Erik
Location: Bay Area
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,200
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by efredeluces
Hello, previously we study using traditional techniques, you know the ones featured in the book dymanic sphere. now we have a new sensei were switching to a more modern versions were we use direct applications.
I think I'm with Peter on this one. I'm no Aikido history expert, and it's been some time since I opened the Dynamic Sphere, but my take on the large circular movements are that they are the more modern approach. I would argue, not too strenuously though, that the first Doshu probably sent things down this path as much as anyone. May the history minded and more knowledgeable on this topic correct me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 07:51 PM   #20
efredeluces
Dojo: SBMA Aikido Dojo
Location: Olongapo, Phillippines
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by Erik


I think I'm with Peter on this one. I'm no Aikido history expert, and it's been some time since I opened the Dynamic Sphere, but my take on the large circular movements are that they are the more modern approach. I would argue, not too strenuously though, that the first Doshu probably sent things down this path as much as anyone. May the history minded and more knowledgeable on this topic correct me.
Hi! I'm not also much with history but one of my previous sensei told me that we are actually learning the more traditional arts now than what we previously learn but somehow I appreciate knowing both versions coz now I can somehow create my own or I think I can somehow he he he.

I'm just missing the old randori, taigi and weapon stuffs coz now we don't get much of it.

Happy training ....

Quote:
One's acquisition knowledge does not make one great but makes one realized that he has much to learn in life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2002, 10:53 PM   #21
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,000
Japan
Offline
Quote:
Originally posted by jk
<a raised hand from the back of the class>

Professor Goldsbury,

After leafing through a copy of "Budo Training in Aikido" (English translation of "Budo Renshu"), I seemed to have missed the kotegaeshi portion...would you mind pointing out which technique # it's under?

Regards,
Mr Kuo,

Yes, you are right. I used Budo Renshu as a preparation for Aiki Expo and clearly confused kote-gaeshi with other techniques I taught which do appear in the book. Many apologies.

The irimi I had in mind in a reply to Don Modesto is when you take uke's other, non-attacking, hand. This would be very unwise in a knife attack, but it is a good irimi exericse. The entering movement is very deep, but is outward-turning (O). With this movement, you can take either hand.

Best regards,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2002, 12:06 AM   #22
efredeluces
Dojo: SBMA Aikido Dojo
Location: Olongapo, Phillippines
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 13
Offline
Professor Goldsbury

May I ask something, I know its out of the topic. is it allright for a practitioner to build a small dojo so that I can practice together with my family who are in to it also ?

I know there are rules in doing this I'm just not totally familiar with it.

Regards..
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Kotegaishi weakness? orenb Techniques 60 10-11-2008 02:53 PM
Aikido Kotegaishi Caricature Jarah General 3 10-22-2004 09:50 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:15 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate