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Old 04-20-2011, 11:54 AM   #26
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
and check for evidence of un-cleaned-up-after canines...
yup yup....
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Old 04-20-2011, 11:58 AM   #27
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Hi Joe

Actually, 'Berk' is term that is commonly used in this way in the UK, however it is being misused. It is a shortened bit of cockney rhyming slang that is derived from The Berkley Hunt. I'll leave you all to do the rhyming. So not a good phrase to use, but most people remain completely unaware of what they are calling someone. Tony may be a bit of a nanna, but I wouldn't call him a berk unless I had good reason to

This really belongs in the language thread

regards

Mark
I'm quite used to The Berkley Hunt Mark... at least I'm useful....
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Old 04-20-2011, 12:26 PM   #28
Janet Rosen
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Mark Mueller wrote: View Post
mary, janet,

Either of you guys willing to post a video of this?

Mark
I'm very willing but have no video camera. Maybe I'll see if somebody can bring a smartphone or something to next Tuesday evening's class!

Oh... the link provided ealier in this very thread does indeed show it, its the very first few seconds...I tend to show a version that is a little less splayed open/a little rounder.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 04-20-2011 at 12:28 PM. Reason: add further comment.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:01 PM   #29
lbb
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Oh... the link provided ealier in this very thread does indeed show it, its the very first few seconds...I tend to show a version that is a little less splayed open/a little rounder.
Yes, same here -- the example in the vid is pretty short, but it looks to me like he's rolling onto a flat back. I expect that's probably not quite what is happening, but it might look like that, and that's not what you want to do, exactly. Related to what I said earlier about the legs being live and not dead, you want to maintain a tension in your core that pulls things together, and not just flop around -- and that would make the exercise appear more rounded/pulled into its center (if that makes sense).
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:16 PM   #30
Basia Halliop
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

One exercise I've seen and shown to new people is from kneeling with left knee forward, put right palm on ground for extra support, reach left hand back through along ground under chest and lower left shoulder all the way to the ground until the back of the left shoulder is actually ON the ground. Then use legs to slowly push the body over. (Same with left and right reverse for the other side)

This seems to work for some people as they aren't 'falling' onto their shoulder. They're placing their shoulder firmly on the ground and continuing to roll from there.

Also some people find back rolls easier to start with (although others are the opposite...).
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Old 04-20-2011, 04:51 PM   #31
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

We do the same exercise as mentioned by Janet and Mary and shown in the video. Often we'll have people start in the sitting "butterfly stretch" position - sitting on the fanny with soles of feet together and drawn in to stretch the groin - and then start the rolling. After a few rounds of that, we have them open the legs much like the video and start rolling. I've found two keys to the exercise: first, keep the arms slightly bent in a shallow arc; and lean forward at an angle to start the movement. It appears like you would roll backwards, but that doesn't work. We refer to these as "wobble rolls".

Monkey rolls for us are a good conditioning and confidence building exercise for those who can roll, but still aren't confident. We just do a series of continual rolls, starting from standing, right to left, right to left. I start someone with a series of five, five R L R L R L R L R L and then progress to maybe twenty. That will get you huffing and puffing and you will do a total of forty rolls in less than a minute.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 04-25-2011, 01:15 PM   #32
JCT53
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

I am not the most experianced, but I would suggest that you slowly try it and make sure the people you work with understand your problem. Hope it helps.

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
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Old 04-25-2011, 06:10 PM   #33
ramenboy
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Try rolling backwards a few times for a while. Almost the same body position as forward rolling. Just to get yourself used to the shoulder being on the mat.

practice hard
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Old 04-25-2011, 11:03 PM   #34
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

If you are interested, a significant portion of this event will be devoted to dealing with the fear of falling. Even folks who normally don't actually think of themselves as being afraid of falling. carry a lot of tension they are unaware of. This is the source of most injuries.

Anyway, if you are interested the info ios here:
Ukemi and Connection

- George

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
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Old 04-27-2011, 08:07 AM   #35
Amir Krause
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Yes, I recall having expireinced a similar very brief far of falling after the last injury I had.

Yet, prior to giving any advice, I have a few questions:
a. How long have you trained?
b. Did you roll well prior to the injury? on both sides?
c. what about simple break-falls?
d. do you believe you are currenlty fit to roll & practice?
e. did you ever teach anyone to roll from the start?

My solution was rather simple, since I did roll well before the injury and did teach it, and the only issue was a simple mental barrier of fearing the shoulder was still injured, I re-started rolling slowly, on aslightly softer mat, on the other shoulder, from mid-high and with second hand in supportive position (to release tension).
After a few rolls I could feel the level of tension reducing it did not get away for a few practices.

Good luck
Amir
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Old 04-27-2011, 10:43 PM   #36
Eva Antonia
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Hello,

I got hurt twice, once I tore my left ACL and the second time, just three weeks ago, my foot was trapped in tori's hakama and I made an uncontrolled flight into terrain with my right shoulder. I don't know what happened exactly to the shoulder (afraid to go to the doctor, thinking he could ban me from aikido), but it hurt breathtakingly.

Strangely, instead of fearing ukemi after these incidents, my body just adapted it in order not to touch the hurt parts. After the ACL thing I got an orthesis until surgery, and automatically started doing ukemi so that the leg with the orthesis was always on top and never got fall impact. After the shoulder incident I either switched to breakfalls where the shoulder did not touch the floor or to soft rolls where I pull the shoulder in and touch the floor directly with the upper back. It's not even consciously done, but it works...even if someone does a completely unexpected counterattack where the fall has to come instinctively.

There is no remedy for other things, such as sukumen irimi nage, which I just couldn't do for some time because the shoulder wouldn't allow to do the necessary turn, or ikkyo, when the partner goes a bit roughly and nails the bad shoulder to the mat (I especially dislike those whom I ask to go ahead quietly with my right shoulder, and they confuse left and right, treat my left shoulder with gentle care and then hammer the hurt one into the tatami).

So I think
1) you could try to adapt your rolls and falls to your injury,
2) if there is too much ukemi trauma, start again with rolls from kneeling position and then switch to 1).

Wish you much luck!!!

Eva
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:40 AM   #37
lbb
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
Strangely, instead of fearing ukemi after these incidents, my body just adapted it in order not to touch the hurt parts.
The problem with this is that, while this adaptation may be better than landing on the hurt part, it may still not be good for you. Your shoulder is supposed to touch the mat in a roll -- not land on it with your full weight, but it does touch it briefly. Your legs aren't supposed to always end up with the same one "on top" in a backward fall. Adaptations that do ukemi differently may spare an injury, but may also lead to injury of another part of your body. I know people who have permanent injuries or disabilities and who have found non-standard ways to do ukemi that they have practiced safely for years, so yes, it can be done -- but you have to make an intelligent decision about whether the adaptation is a safe thing to do. In the case of an injury that should heal, it might be more prudent to simply not do that kind of ukemi for the time being, rather than take chances on a new injury.
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:12 AM   #38
hughrbeyer
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Eva Röben wrote: View Post
(I especially dislike those whom I ask to go ahead quietly with my right shoulder, and they confuse left and right, treat my left shoulder with gentle care and then hammer the hurt one into the tatami).
Duct tape.

Use it to put an "X" on the hurt shoulder and people won't forget.
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Old 04-28-2011, 09:57 AM   #39
Janet Rosen
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Your shoulder is supposed to touch the mat in a roll -- not land on it with your full weight, but it does touch it briefly. Your legs aren't supposed to always end up with the same one "on top" in a backward fall. Adaptations that do ukemi differently may spare an injury, but may also lead to injury of another part of your body..
Mary, I understand and agree w/ your basic premise as expressed in the last sentence.
But , as one who indeed does very ideosyncratic falls and rolls due to multiple joint issues, I have to ask why you think that a roll is only correct if the shoulder touches the mat? What is the problem if a person does back fallsl so the same leg is always on top?

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 04-28-2011, 10:56 AM   #40
Basia Halliop
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Eva Roben wrote:
(I especially dislike those whom I ask to go ahead quietly with my right shoulder, and they confuse left and right, treat my left shoulder with gentle care and then hammer the hurt one into the tatami).
Quote:
Hugh Beyer wrote: View Post
Duct tape.

Use it to put an "X" on the hurt shoulder and people won't forget.
Electrical tape works pretty well too. And it comes in red too, which is an extra reminder.

I've even seen someone take white tape and write 'OUCH' with a marker on it .
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Old 04-28-2011, 08:10 PM   #41
Dave Gallagher
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Just an update. I am beginning to come around. This is due to a PM I received from a Forum member with some very good ideas.
I expect to be back to a good level in the next week or so.
I have also discovered or re-discoverd the value of staying relaxed. It's never too late to start all over again when you have to.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:06 AM   #42
Dave Gallagher
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Well, as luck would have it, I was working on ukemi last nite when my knee began to swell and a bit of pain set in. Seiza was a killer.
I have an appt with the doctor Friday.

It is the duty of the strong to protect the weak.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:02 AM   #43
Diana Frese
Dojo: Aikikai of S.W. Conn. (formerly)
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

I was just reading around in the threads, when.... oh no this sounds way too familiar.... so I signed in, success after two tries. Then I got my reading glasses off the table...

Sounds like what happened to me many many years ago. I had been sent home to Connecticut after a scary ukemi from shiho nage koshi nage or something like that. My knee had some black and maybe green and purple ... I can't remember..

(My ukemi was never that great anyway...) Then I came back after maybe a couple of weeks and some friends from the dojo were having a party. I was dancing, you know with people at some distance sixties style and knees were bending except mine swelled up maybe like a baseball...

May not be the same as yours but here's what happened. I went to Doc Meyers, one of the old timers a brown belt at the time, on Woodhaven Boulevard accessible by subway and bus. He waved the syringe which was half clear and half a darkish pink..." Hey nurse look what I got out of Daian's knee...."

Then he told me if I had waited much longer after it swelled up they would have had to take the knee cap off and scrape it.

Well, Doc Meyers was famous for a sense of humor, but with things like that you don't take chances.

Hopefully you will be okay after treatment. I was, that was the late sixties and I trained actively until the mid eighties.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:56 AM   #44
Shany
 
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Dave Gallagher wrote: View Post
After a long layoff due to a knee injury and some work hours issues I am ready to return to training. During this time off I seem to have developed a fear of Ukemi.I have not been able to get up the nerve to even attempt a simple forward roll.
Has anyone else ever had this happen or even heard of it before?
can you go to swari-waza and do a forward roll slowly and safely without any damange to your knees?

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:19 PM   #45
lbb
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Mary, I understand and agree w/ your basic premise as expressed in the last sentence.
But , as one who indeed does very ideosyncratic falls and rolls due to multiple joint issues, I have to ask why you think that a roll is only correct if the shoulder touches the mat? What is the problem if a person does back fallsl so the same leg is always on top?
You tell me, Janet. With the average person's anatomy, it is a problem. If it's not a problem, then, uh...no problem? Not sure where this digression is leading...
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Old 05-01-2011, 09:07 PM   #46
Janet Rosen
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
You tell me, Janet. With the average person's anatomy, it is a problem. If it's not a problem, then, uh...no problem? Not sure where this digression is leading...
You've answered by repeating that it's wrong or incorrect ukemi (for the average person) but in terms of actual body use I'm trying to understand the specific harm or damage - or is it a matter of "correct" as in traditional?
I'm not trying to criticize or stir things up. I have a decades long interest in kinesiology and body use and am asking what you think the harm is, specifically, so I can consider it.
Thank you.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 05-02-2011, 06:33 AM   #47
lbb
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
You've answered by repeating that it's wrong or incorrect ukemi (for the average person) but in terms of actual body use I'm trying to understand the specific harm or damage - or is it a matter of "correct" as in traditional?
I'm not trying to criticize or stir things up. I have a decades long interest in kinesiology and body use and am asking what you think the harm is, specifically, so I can consider it.
Thank you.
As someone with a decades long interest in kinesiology, have you ever seen an injured person develop a limp? Have you ever seen that limp cause yet other problems? That's what I'm talking about. It seems pretty obvious and straightforward and shouldn't call for a lot of reading-into: when you change functional mechanics in order to "work around" an injury, rather than simply giving the injury time to heal, you may very well be buying additional trouble through your impatience.
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Old 05-03-2011, 12:42 AM   #48
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
... when you change functional mechanics in order to "work around" an injury, rather than simply giving the injury time to heal, you may very well be buying additional trouble through your impatience.
To my experience in many cases this is not a question whether or not to work around an injury or a chronic problem, but a question of how to work around it.

True: Sometimes it's not possible. But very often it is. And can be a very helpfull way to get over it. This can teach a lot!

Well, there are teachers who develloped their specific aikido by working around an injury: Tohei sensei (spine), Endo sensei (shoulder).
I myself experienced this a few time in all those years. Most impressive after I tore a muscle fiber.

You have to have good teachers (or in other cases coaches) I think, a good physiotherapist, and most of all a lot of experience of practice and of your own body.

So to have to work around an injury even can improve your level of aikido. Without doing harm to your body, even in the long run.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:22 AM   #49
Abasan
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

I advice to you to start off the mat instead from a crouch.

Lying on your back, reverse your legs over a shoulder and go into seiza from there. then lie back and repeat with the other shoulder.

If you're flexible both feet can go at nearly the same time over the shoulder. If you are not, then the lead leg should go over the shoulder and followed by the back leg.

As you get comfortable doing this, once you have nearly completed doing the back roll but with your shoulder still touching the ground, reverse the movement into your original position.

Once you can do that comfortably, reverse the roll into a crouching position (instead of going back into a lying position).

There you have just completed basic ukemi from back to front. Having being able to do that, you'll have no issues to go from a crouching position and then to a standing position. Either mae or ushiro, its all the same.

Draw strength from stillness. Learn to act without acting. And never underestimate a samurai cat.
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Old 05-03-2011, 01:25 PM   #50
Phil Van Treese
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Re: Fear of Ukemi

To get over the fear of rolling, start from your knees and work your way up. When I separated my shoulder and was out for 1 1/2 years, it was very scary to get back to ukemi. I started from the knees and worked my way up. You do the same and your fears will leave. Good luck to you.
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