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Old 04-12-2011, 12:14 PM   #76
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,091
United_States
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Sundennly , here on Aikiweb we discover some exceptional Martial Artists, with higher level of aikido understanding than O sensei direct students.
This seems like a bit of a strawman to me. I haven't read anyone here making claims about being able to throw anyone without touching them. They've simply been saying there's a logical reason for thinking about them at all; sometimes attackers will respond to things other than those involving touch. It happens.
Should you form your whole study around that? Probably not or you end up looking like the "kiai master:" bloody nose and unable to handle the wrist grab that led directly to the end of your fight.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 04-12-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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Old 04-12-2011, 12:19 PM   #77
Randy Sexton
Dojo: Aikido of Lake Keowee
Location: South Carolina
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 187
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Grizzly Bear Aikido

In my opinion and by my experience in the martial arts I believe the ability to project KI as an energy force is not real. Sorry, Yoda! Good movie but not Aikido.

However, if you feel KI is the ability to mentally and emotionally and perhaps spiritually connect to another human being. That I believe. Having established that connection the other individual knows beyond a doubt that when I atemi to his face that I am coming to his face and am going to go through it leaving him with only two choices. He moves out of the way or gets punched really hard. In his moving, if I stay connected and press toward him directing him to his weakest support his balance begins to fail and continuing to press the attack he will fall to the ground. On the way down he must continually believe he has to go down or he will get punched really hard on the way down to the floor. So he constantly continues to evade breaking his balance all the way to the floor.

Imagine a bear coming at you and is right on top of you but has not physically touched you yet I think he will break your balance and send you to the ground without touching you. Get the idea? That is a Grizzly bear no touch throw.
I believe the connection and intent and continuing the attack is crucial and if the Uke sees it, feels it, believes it he will get the hell out of the way. That is a real no touch throw.

If you line up a bunch of guys and the first in line is connected and you affect him the others who are connected to him will also be affected. However to do it at a range that he feels no real physical threat it won't work unless he feels a connection even at a nonthreatening physical distance. His mind can be affected causing him to subconsciously sway and begin to break his balance. Those physically connected to him will also be affected.

Imagine he is first in line and all his five buddies behind him are touching him and connected to him and as he comes over the rise he sees the Grizzly bear standing up and charging at him full force with bared teeth and claws coming down. What do you think will happen?. That is another Grizzly bear no touch throw for all of us nonbelievers.

Bottom line, it is about connection and staying connected breaking his balance all the way down to the ground by affecting his mind and emotions and his survival instinct. As someone said above have a guy ignore that instinct he gets the punch. Most people are not that stupid but I have had attackers rush in ignoring everything and charging like a bull. Try an energy ball on him! That guy you must connect to him and break his balance and take him down.
]
Food for thought.

Doc Sexton

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will"
Gandhi
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:02 PM   #78
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Nice meal Randy. Now we're getting nearer the crux of the matter.

Some say you have to disturb the persons center and mind, others say you have to lead their center and mind. Both viewpoints converge on persons center and thus stability and thus also mind 'gone.'

In your examples it took a big ogre and thus fear.

There are so many examples in life of things that have or could take your center or your mind. Think of things that make you nervous for example. The point being that in those states a person could touch you with the lightest of touches and you would fall down for your stability has already left the building. I guarantee someone at some point in your life made you go weak at the knees, now thats pretty much gone.

If you are in motion at these particular times like for instance an object you didn't see on the path whilst you were running then the surprise takes your mind and your stability but it's too late to stop. You hurtle over it and crash to the floor. Thrown by a lump of concrete.

In Aikido it is the motion and energy which takes the opponents mind and center. Aiki motion. The techniques follow and compliment that.

Anyway, simple realities to do with center and mind apparent all around you in your daily life.

Now this has taken my mind long enough.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:16 PM   #79
jeremymcmillan
Dojo: Kiku Matsu/Chicago, IL
Location: Chicago, IL
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Re: Grizzly Bear Aikido

Thank you Randy. This is how Ki is taught in my dojo. Your explanation bears repeating, so I quote it in entirety.

Heard the saying that a beginner tries to control his opponent with strength, and an intermediate aikidoka tries to control his opponent with speed, and an experienced aikidoka tries to control his opponent with Ki. A master, however, controls his opponent with his own mind. It is a real magical phenomenon, I like to say, as practiced by Penn and Teller.

Psychologists may be getting closer to explaining how it works by explaining some kinds of learning through Mirror Neurons. No "Spock/Vulcan" mind-meld required. Just get and control your opponent's attention to get a direct line to their brain motor control:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_neuron

Quote:
Randy Sexton wrote: View Post
In my opinion and by my experience in the martial arts I believe the ability to project KI as an energy force is not real. Sorry, Yoda! Good movie but not Aikido.

However, if you feel KI is the ability to mentally and emotionally and perhaps spiritually connect to another human being. That I believe. Having established that connection the other individual knows beyond a doubt that when I atemi to his face that I am coming to his face and am going to go through it leaving him with only two choices. He moves out of the way or gets punched really hard. In his moving, if I stay connected and press toward him directing him to his weakest support his balance begins to fail and continuing to press the attack he will fall to the ground. On the way down he must continually believe he has to go down or he will get punched really hard on the way down to the floor. So he constantly continues to evade breaking his balance all the way to the floor.

Imagine a bear coming at you and is right on top of you but has not physically touched you yet I think he will break your balance and send you to the ground without touching you. Get the idea? That is a Grizzly bear no touch throw.
I believe the connection and intent and continuing the attack is crucial and if the Uke sees it, feels it, believes it he will get the hell out of the way. That is a real no touch throw.

If you line up a bunch of guys and the first in line is connected and you affect him the others who are connected to him will also be affected. However to do it at a range that he feels no real physical threat it won't work unless he feels a connection even at a nonthreatening physical distance. His mind can be affected causing him to subconsciously sway and begin to break his balance. Those physically connected to him will also be affected.

Imagine he is first in line and all his five buddies behind him are touching him and connected to him and as he comes over the rise he sees the Grizzly bear standing up and charging at him full force with bared teeth and claws coming down. What do you think will happen?. That is another Grizzly bear no touch throw for all of us nonbelievers.

Bottom line, it is about connection and staying connected breaking his balance all the way down to the ground by affecting his mind and emotions and his survival instinct. As someone said above have a guy ignore that instinct he gets the punch. Most people are not that stupid but I have had attackers rush in ignoring everything and charging like a bull. Try an energy ball on him! That guy you must connect to him and break his balance and take him down.
]
Food for thought.

Doc Sexton
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Old 04-12-2011, 01:30 PM   #80
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,907
Spain
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
I didn't claimed anything, so I don't need to publish video - logic is simple. Don't try to impose me your own duty LOL.
I know you didn't claim anything. I simply asked for a deal: my clip in MMA for your clip in MMA.

What you want doesn't will come (if it comes) for free.

Quote:
For God reference, you didn't understand a joke
Try to make better jokes.

Quote:
I studied with different O sensei direct students in my short life - ALL of them said directly about no touch throws - " I can't do it".
So what?

Quote:
But my logical brain tells me - watch out, writing words on internet is cheap.
The pot calling the kettle black. ROFLMAO!!!

Quote:
So I said - PROVE IT with video! Technology is cheap and simple, available everywhere.
Earn the right to watch what you're asking for.

Quote:
For the moment all I see is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH....
The same I've seen from you in lot of years, lots of talk but no walk.

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Old 04-12-2011, 02:03 PM   #81
matty_mojo911
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 38
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Thumbs up Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

When I started this thread I was looking for some feedback, as this is no touch throwing is something that both concerns and fascinates me.
The feedback has been great. I've got some fresh ideas on it all, and some new ways to think of it.
I sense this debate could go on for ever. In BJJ we don't get debates like this as it is so clear cut (I.e - you tap out or you pass out).
Aikido isn't clear cut which in many aspects is what makes it so challenging.
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Old 04-12-2011, 03:40 PM   #82
carina reinhardt
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
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Re: No touch throwing or muppets in a circle?

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
What Gornall Bell just said.

I think I wrote something similar earlier in this thread, about really good posts on both sides. I was intending to thank Carina for posting Niall's blog entry on Watanabe Sensei, and by the way I wrote one on him myself, having joined later in the year and not knowing about Niall's until after I had posted mine. By the way I had listed Watanabe Sensei as one of my main teachers in my profile.

My husband says sometimes no touch throws do happen in what I may term action sparring, the type he and his brother used to do, he figured out it might sometimes happen,but that's another story. I'm not going to try to duplicate what others have said better than I, and I haven't seen Watanabe Sensei since 1975 and only exchanged a couple of sentences at the dojo and coffee shop in a small group of people, so I'm guessing that the no touch throws in the demo clips were to show the extreme development of leading, etc.

Watanabe Sensei was, and I am sure still is, an excellent teacher. Another guess is, similar to a recommendation years ago someone explained, that weapons are an excellent way, as extensions of the empty hand, to teach the regular empty handed techniques. Likewise, might the no touch ways be a way to teach the extension of the "regular " forms?

As for personal experience I grew to really like teaching katate tori, then gradually go into the leading forms, to make sure students kept paying attention to the connection between uke and nage....

Well, this is probably old stuff to many of you, and I haven't taught much in the past twenty or more years, so I'll defer to the other side of the debate, to be fair.

It may surprise y'all but Tony W. has been helping my husband and myself with advice and training suggestions for quite some time both in the threads to begin with and then via email. Job and home repairs have kept us really busy, let alone winter related .... but when we do get back to training we will include them. They are very valuable.

Chuck likes judo, so Tony's Tomiki style perspective is very interesting to him, athough he also likes what my "lineages" (Francis called my list of teachers "eclectic") have to offer.

Actually it's interesting to both of us. I'm going to include a quote from one of Tony's emails on self defense as soon as I can copy it longhand off the email and then type it onto a post for you to read. I'm still technologically challenged, have dial up video and am very far behind in watching clips people have kindly posted. Furthermore I didn't have time to study how to transfer from email to a web post. Sorry about that. Well, later today for the post, I'm posting this for now...
Thank you Diana for sharing all this memories and I mentioned that post of Moon in the water because I liked it very much and I thought it could help in this thread.
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