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Old 05-31-2011, 08:37 AM   #26
HL1978
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Quote:
Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
You might consult with a Goju-Ryu sensei and think about taking classes as they often train students in IP while also doing traditional kata instruction. In Aikido I have gotten some IP instruction when doing SUWARIWAZA - kokyuho and there are many shihans in Aikido who can give you instruction in this area if you ask them about it.
I've been doing sanchin kata for about 17 years, but I have been doing it completely wrong for most of the time. While I was taught it with a partner for testing purposes, it was taught to me wrong with lots and lots of muscular tension, heavy breathing etc leading to high blood pressure during the kata.
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:05 AM   #27
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
I've been doing sanchin kata for about 17 years, but I have been doing it completely wrong for most of the time. While I was taught it with a partner for testing purposes, it was taught to me wrong with lots and lots of muscular tension, heavy breathing etc leading to high blood pressure during the kata.
Very sorry to hear that. Try another karate instructor or..maybe Wang Hai Jun or Dan Harden. Blood pressure may need to be addressed in other ways as well though.
Best of luck,
Rudy
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:18 AM   #28
HL1978
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Hunter,

Weren't you going to post some videos of a few exercises or some things you are working on? Whatever happened to that? Don't you think you should stand by your word?
Sure I will put some new ones.

I don't have the links to my old ones anymore as I don't have access to the forum with the links.

Quote:
I know anatomy and kinesiology is a challenge for many of you, but, and this may come as a surprise, your shoulders cannot "push" the arms down.

So, if the shoulders are "relaxed" how do the arms raise?

Seriously. What does "relaxed" mean to you? Do you truly believe that it is possible to raise the arms without the deltoids activating? Or are you really referring to "feelings" that you want to develop in your body?
A large part of it is feeling based. You get a sensation and then try and replicate it again and again. See my discussion in the post with Mike about heavy vs light for one just about any one can feel (going "light").

Your shoulders can absolutely push the arms down. Your shoulders have a ball socket and can rotate up/down, forwards/backwards, left right, likewise you can raise and lower the shoulder socket. Most people are aware that if you raise the shoulder socket up, like the same position a shoulder shrug the arms generate less power. Conversly, even if my shoulders are relaxed, I can push that shoulder socket down maybe half an inch with the deltoids. You can also push or round the shoulder socket forwards, and pull the shoulders back like a military attention position.

All I was trying to say there is that pushing with the arms and shoulders doesn't make for a heavier arm, with heavyness being percieved by myself or by my partner/opponent. Instead you wind up tensing the muscles which makes it easier for an opponent to manipulate. Additionally you may find that you are pushing yourself off or away from your opponent ala newtons 3rd law which leads to the "light" sensation. If your arms are to be percieved as being "heavier" than just the weight of the arms alone, that heavyness has to be coming from somewhere else.

Now I think Phi posted a link a while back showing a study done with Kuroda showing he uses a lot less upper body than most people for a given movement. On the otherhand, you have all the fascia discussion and I have seen or felt guys that can "pull the skin" from the lower torso area which causes their arms to raise. I can do that to a very small degree and it causes my arms to raise up a few inches.

Now, if I hold a position like this:

http://laquetedekiaz.files.wordpress...pg?w=350&h=263

and relax the shoulders, I have found that other areas of my body tend to bear the weight so that my shoulders aren't fatigued. It has shifted from initally from my shoulders, to underneath the arms, to underneath the ribs as I learn to progressively relax each of those muscles to bear the weight. Are each of those areas becoming stronger to bear the weight of the shoulders/arms as I conciously relax? Perhaps, I don't know. On the other hand, my training partners will say that it feels like the weight of my arms is getting lower and lower with more body weight in the arm a "heavier" feeling. If all I do is hold the arms up with the shoulders, these lower areas never seem to come in to play and get tired. I can only assume that they are not being worked unless the shoulders are relaxed. Its also my understanding that the arm weight can be born eventually in the lower torso, but I am not there yet.

As for what relaxed is, it doesn't mean limp noodled. Though doing so seems to make the body feel very heavy to yourself and a partner. If you have a the muscles relaxed, but either structurly good alignment or the body held together via the Mike Sigman suit/fasica model to hold the shape, it leads to relaxed muscles and heavy limbs.

Quote:
Listen, I agree that directing your weight straight down, using gravity, not depending on anything/anyone else for your balance, being relaxed, and favoring the lower body are all positive qualities, but I really feel you need to communicate much more clearly about the ideas you bring up for discussion.
I agree. So much of what I am currently doing is chasing/recreating sensations, in order to utilize different muscles, or generate/maintain the heavy (or other feelings) that it is difficult to talk about unless you have felt the same thing. Even if you have some experiences in common, there seems to be trouble discussing it as well.

Heck, look at how many martial arts expressions that are out there which can be viewed as a sensation vs philosophy. We see plenty of arguments either way here on aikiweb for both viewpoints.

Last edited by HL1978 : 05-31-2011 at 09:23 AM. Reason: grammar
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:26 AM   #29
HL1978
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Very sorry to hear that. Try another karate instructor or..maybe Wang Hai Jun or Dan Harden. Blood pressure may need to be addressed in other ways as well though.
Best of luck,
Rudy
It wasn't really until I met Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, and others that I realized I was doing it wrong. I'm not sure if I am doing it right, but I am probably doing it less wrong than before. At least it makes a lot more sense than it did before.

I was taught it was a conditioning or breathing exercise, but how to use breath or what I was actually conditioning was never made all that clear.

I would love to meet Dan and have worked out with people that train with him, but I'm unsure if I meet his criteria for seminar attendance.

Last edited by HL1978 : 05-31-2011 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:42 AM   #30
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
...I would love to meet Dan and have worked out with people that train with him, but I'm unsure if I meet his criteria for seminar attendance.
I've read that if you keep at him and don't take no for an answer he'll probably want you to attend his seminars. Also, based on what I've read here, you could get in touch with http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member.php?u=7069 or http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member.php?u=11744
and ask them to speak to Dan on your behalf.

Regards,
Rudy

Last edited by abraxis : 05-31-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 10:58 AM   #31
Walter Martindale
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
(snip)

Your shoulders can absolutely push the arms down. Your shoulders have a ball socket and can rotate up/down, forwards/backwards, left right, likewise you can raise and lower the shoulder socket. Most people are aware that if you raise the shoulder socket up, like the same position a shoulder shrug the arms generate less power. Conversly, even if my shoulders are relaxed, I can push that shoulder socket down maybe half an inch with the deltoids. You can also push or round the shoulder socket forwards, and pull the shoulders back like a military attention position.

(snip)
I'm going to split some hairs here... The deltoid muscle (heck, all muscle) PULLS. The Deltoid pulls between its origin on the clavicle and scapula, and the insertion on the humerus. Muscle cannot 'push' without using the lever systems of the bones - e.g., you 'push' your hand into a punching bag using the anterior deltoid and probably the pectoral muscle to pull the humerus forward and up - and the triceps muscle to pull the ulna into extension relative to the humerus. The muscles are pulling - only pulling...
You must be using some other muscle group to lower the shoulder ball/socket joint. OR, you're fixing the position of your hand, contracting the deltoid, and letting it pull your shoulder joint downwards, but a muscle cannot push. They contract (pull) and relax - any extension in the length of a muscle when it's not actively contracting is passive...

All human movement is complex. For example, most people don't realise that the only "bony" connection of the arm/shoulder to the body is the sternum/clavicle joint. The scapula floats on a bunch of muscle and the arm attaches to the scapula with the glenohumeral joint. The scapula's 'bony attachment' to the body is the other end of the clavicle. It's kinda why a broken collar bone or having either end of the clavicle (collar bone) separated/dislocated is REALLY bad for your arm's functionality...

Yes, it's possible to get a feeling of relaxing and sinking your weight - I can't really explain it but some of my sensei have told me that I can do it. However - muscles can't push, and there's a whole nother thread about a famed shihan raising his arms in kokyu-dosa without using his shoulder muscles - sorry, but that's impossible, too.
Cheers,
Walter
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Old 05-31-2011, 11:00 AM   #32
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
It wasn't really until I met Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, and others that I realized I was doing it wrong. I'm not sure if I am doing it right, but I am probably doing it less wrong than before. At least it makes a lot more sense than it did before.

I was taught it was a conditioning or breathing exercise, but how to use breath or what I was actually conditioning was never made all that clear.

I would love to meet Dan and have worked out with people that train with him, but I'm unsure if I meet his criteria for seminar attendance.
Dan's approachable, but he's very busy these days. You should be able to get in if you get your application in early enough for one of the workshops (a lot of them are closed because they are at full capacity already).

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-31-2011, 11:36 AM   #33
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
It wasn't really until I met Akuzawa, Mike Sigman, and others that I realized I was doing it wrong.
I was taught it was a conditioning or breathing exercise, but how to use breath or what I was actually conditioning was never made all that clear....
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wang hai jun
summer camp in june
check it out
stan
Don't know if this is a possibility for you. Keep us posted here on how it goes with Dan &/or Wang Hai Jun.
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Old 05-31-2011, 12:05 PM   #34
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Anyone going to this who will be able to report back here:-- in this thread or a new one?

http://www.silkreeling.com/whj_camp.html
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:42 PM   #35
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Rudy Ternbach wrote: View Post
Don't know if this is a possibility for you. Keep us posted here on how it goes with Dan &/or Wang Hai Jun.
Hmmmm.... is anyone representing that Dan and Wang Hai Jun have the same understanding to "internal martial arts"? I wasn't aware that they did. My impression, based upon a lot of Aikido posts over a number of years is that many Aikido people have had a problem understanding that (1.) there was any internal arts that they were unaware of (I think Dan himself has made this point a number of times) and (2.) if there was a difference, they were unable to see what it was.

My point is (which I've made before) is that instead of lumping people together under the heading of "I.S.", perhaps people should define what they mean by "internal strength".

I realize that some people will take umbrage with the idea that there may be different perceptions.... but that's exactly my point.
Watch who takes the most umbrage.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2011, 05:17 AM   #36
Michael Varin
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Quote:
Walter Martindale wrote:
I'm going to split some hairs here... The deltoid muscle (heck, all muscle) PULLS. The Deltoid pulls between its origin on the clavicle and scapula, and the insertion on the humerus. Muscle cannot 'push' without using the lever systems of the bones - e.g., you 'push' your hand into a punching bag using the anterior deltoid and probably the pectoral muscle to pull the humerus forward and up - and the triceps muscle to pull the ulna into extension relative to the humerus. The muscles are pulling - only pulling...
You must be using some other muscle group to lower the shoulder ball/socket joint. OR, you're fixing the position of your hand, contracting the deltoid, and letting it pull your shoulder joint downwards, but a muscle cannot push. They contract (pull) and relax - any extension in the length of a muscle when it's not actively contracting is passive...

All human movement is complex. For example, most people don't realise that the only "bony" connection of the arm/shoulder to the body is the sternum/clavicle joint. The scapula floats on a bunch of muscle and the arm attaches to the scapula with the glenohumeral joint. The scapula's 'bony attachment' to the body is the other end of the clavicle. It's kinda why a broken collar bone or having either end of the clavicle (collar bone) separated/dislocated is REALLY bad for your arm's functionality...

Yes, it's possible to get a feeling of relaxing and sinking your weight - I can't really explain it but some of my sensei have told me that I can do it. However - muscles can't push, and there's a whole nother thread about a famed shihan raising his arms in kokyu-dosa without using his shoulder muscles - sorry, but that's impossible, too.
Nice post, Walter.

And not because it give the "IP/IT/IS" crowd a hard time, but because it requires them to conform to physical reality, which everything that exists must do.

The level of belief that the "IP/IT/IS" crowd have put into their practice is laudable.

The amout of analysis, on the other hand, is lamentable.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:14 AM   #37
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
....there's a whole nother thread about a famed shihan raising his arms in kokyu-dosa without using his shoulder muscles - sorry, but that's impossible, too.
I could be confused by time, but I think this topic has been discussed even here in the past (I know it has on other forums like the Neijia List, QiJin, etc.). I haven't seen a "famed shihan" do it (i.e., I'm not sure to whom you're referring), but "don't use shoulder" doesn't actually mean no shoulder muscles are firing; it means that the motion is initiated elsewhere and that other factors than muscles are involved in the transmission of forces. The confusion exists with people misunderstanding how to, for instance, do shomenuchi or ikkyo with the power coming from the ground/hara as opposed to doing it from the shoulder. "Don't use shoulder" takes on a different meaning when you view it in that light.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-01-2011, 09:42 AM   #38
HL1978
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Nice post, Walter.

And not because it give the "IP/IT/IS" crowd a hard time, but because it requires them to conform to physical reality, which everything that exists must do.

The level of belief that the "IP/IT/IS" crowd have put into their practice is laudable.

The amout of analysis, on the other hand, is lamentable.
In my opinion, this comment about the amount of analysis does show some misunderstanding of the approach required for figuring out IS. It requires a lot more self-analysis using various feedback mechanisms than one might expect. Of course this refers to various sensations that I mentioned earlier, likewise becoming aware of and strengthening particular muscle groups and support structures of the body that might not typically be consciously engaged in a normal workout. Perhaps you meant the quality of the written analysis you have seen on aikiweb?

There is fairly considerable written analysis preformed on other forums by people interested in these skills. I wouldn't use my posts as a measuring stick for the quality of the analysis preformed in general by IS people. There are others of course who will do plenty of analysis in person as it is a heck of a lot easier to do than writing online. You just might not see much of it as late on aikiweb. Of course, it can't be helped if one can't see the same things in a particular movement as the other person.

As to conforming to physical reality, no one has claimed anything other than that. If you could clarify a bit further I think it would be helpful for discussion. Are you referring the the suit/fascia model? Are you referring to muscles pushing? Are you referring to the more "woo woo" stuff like the account of Tenryu not being able to move when Ueshiba held on to him?

Lets take for a second yours and Walter's comments about the shoulders not being able to push the arms. One would have to acknowledge that the arms can extend forwards in some way as the result of shoulder movement. That is to say, even if the muscles only pull, the functionally equivalent movement winds up being a push. I hope that was made clear in post #28. I took your response to mean that the shoulders were fixed in the socket and could not extend/push the arms forwards. I was not viewing my comments as to how muscle groups in general move.

It also depends if you are thinking about how each part of the body moves in a technical manner. This certainly makes conversation easier with different people. On the other hand, it seems that the way you wind up using many of the IS movement types is the opposite of what you would consider the normal way. Say for something as simple as striking softer/relaxed to hit harder. That ran counter to all my years of karate experience before I was shown/figured that one out. Thats to say to learn to to use far less local strength and sourcing more power from somewhere else.

I would certainly appreciate your thoughts regarding recruitment of other muscle groups to bear loads or initiate movement. That is in part why I brought Kuroda into the discussion while mentioning the whole fascia thing in the next sentence. It's a fairly well known maxim in martial arts that movement begins in the middle and propagates outwards. Figuring out how to do it though seems to elude most people, though not everyone chases after it either.
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:20 PM   #39
Walter Martindale
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I could be confused by time, but I think this topic has been discussed even here in the past (I know it has on other forums like the Neijia List, QiJin, etc.). I haven't seen a "famed shihan" do it (i.e., I'm not sure to whom you're referring), but "don't use shoulder" doesn't actually mean no shoulder muscles are firing; it means that the motion is initiated elsewhere and that other factors than muscles are involved in the transmission of forces. The confusion exists with people misunderstanding how to, for instance, do shomenuchi or ikkyo with the power coming from the ground/hara as opposed to doing it from the shoulder. "Don't use shoulder" takes on a different meaning when you view it in that light.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
Kodo Horikawa thread in this (non-aikido martial traditions) has "don't use shoulders" to raise arms. I don't really know how famous the man is/was.
Cheers,
W
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Old 06-04-2011, 05:31 PM   #40
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Kodo Horikawa thread in this (non-aikido martial traditions) has "don't use shoulders" to raise arms. I don't really know how famous the man is/was.
Cheers,
W
Horikawa is doing (in the videos I've seen) what I'm talking about.

Mike Sigman
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:00 PM   #41
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Walter Martindale wrote: View Post
Kodo Horikawa thread in this (non-aikido martial traditions) has "don't use shoulders" to raise arms. I don't really know how famous the man is/was.
Cheers,
W
Sagawa Yukiyoshi was also an early student of Takeda Sokaku, like Horikawa.



Akuzawa Minoru trained for two years or so (happy to be corrected on this) in Sagawa's dojo. In the following clip, he demonstrates the aiki age exercise captured in the still photo of Sagawa above. In particular, watch his shoulders from 0:08 to 0:16.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?...AB64DECBF6D8B5
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:14 AM   #42
Lee Salzman
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
Sagawa Yukiyoshi was also an early student of Takeda Sokaku, like Horikawa.



Akuzawa Minoru trained for two years or so (happy to be corrected on this) in Sagawa's dojo. In the following clip, he demonstrates the aiki age exercise captured in the still photo of Sagawa above. In particular, watch his shoulders from 0:08 to 0:16.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?...AB64DECBF6D8B5
And yet, the shoulders look like only a part of what is going on there. At the moment when the man in the white shirt is being lifted off the ground, and Mr. Minoru is under load, look at the line the forearm is going towards (from his elbow to his wrists). Look at the line his torso is going (from his butt to the top of his skull). They are going in the exact same direction, so the spine can reinforce the arm's direction cleanly, with the upper arm moving towards that same direction but just not evident from the range of movement.

The man in the white shirt's spine and arms are almost going at cross purposes. The lower spine is sort of driving up and into Mr. Minoru while the upper spine is disagreeing with that line and pulling back away from him (arching backwards), while at the same time the forearms are cutting almost perpendicular. For the upper arm bone to push into the forearm, his spine would have to push into the upper arm. But it's going the totally opposite direction, so his upper arm are unsupported by his movement, so the forearms can get no support from the upper arm, and they just collapse under the load.

tl;dr The shoulder joint can't extend if it's supported by mush and will only squish the mush rather than extend. Just say no to mushy spine. Spine and arm must asymptotically seek the same direction to fully utilize the shoulder joint, rather than go at cross purposes.

Exhibit A

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 06-05-2011 at 04:27 AM.
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Old 06-05-2011, 08:34 PM   #43
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
. . .

so the spine can reinforce the arm's direction cleanly, with the upper arm moving towards that same direction but just not evident from the range of movement.

tl;dr The shoulder joint can't extend if it's supported by mush and will only squish the mush rather than extend. Just say no to mushy spine. Spine and arm must asymptotically seek the same direction to fully utilize the shoulder joint, rather than go at cross purposes.
I agree, and that's a nice expansion of the discussion on shoulder engagement.

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Looks like you've put on some weight and grown some hair since the last time I saw you.
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Old 06-06-2011, 01:11 AM   #44
Lee Salzman
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
I agree, and that's a nice expansion of the discussion on shoulder engagement.

Looks like you've put on some weight and grown some hair since the last time I saw you.
Sadly, no, that is scraped from random google image search because it nicely illustrated various phases of shoulder movement. Male pattern baldness progresses apace.
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Old 06-08-2011, 06:29 PM   #45
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Lee - I'm not sure I got your idea exactly.
also: just a question for you -why do people flex their shoulders? because they are trying to lift the load with their shoulders or because they are trying to keep thier shoulders from slipping out (i.e. humerus leaving glenohumeral joint in any number of directions?). i.e. is it a problem of lifting wrong or of stabilization. or both?
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Old 06-08-2011, 11:34 PM   #46
Lee Salzman
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Lee - I'm not sure I got your idea exactly.
also: just a question for you -why do people flex their shoulders? because they are trying to lift the load with their shoulders or because they are trying to keep thier shoulders from slipping out (i.e. humerus leaving glenohumeral joint in any number of directions?). i.e. is it a problem of lifting wrong or of stabilization. or both?
I guess I was just trying to say that the arm has to push off something, that thing being the torso. Arm pushes away from torso, torso pushes away from arm, net result being that angle at the shoulder joint increases. If the torso arches back, it actually just decreases that joint angle again, being the opposite of what raising the arms is trying to do.

Sitting on the ground (on your butt) it can be easier to grasp the idea. Specifically, if you sit next to a wall (on your butt) and try pushing up and into it, and feel what the torso needs to do to get that push to carry down to your butt into the ground, and simultaneously the push of your torso off the ground into the arms, rather than just causing a structural collapse at some intermediate point on the spine or at the shoulder joint. If any part of the the chain collapses (between hands and butt), force is bleeding out there. Why a person would be predisposed towards any one type of collapse would be a matter of ingrained movement habits.

Last edited by Lee Salzman : 06-08-2011 at 11:38 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 06-09-2011, 07:35 AM   #47
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Re: playing with weight and a question

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Lee Salzman wrote: View Post
I guess I was just trying to say that the arm has to push off something, that thing being the torso. Arm pushes away from torso, torso pushes away from arm, net result being that angle at the shoulder joint increases. If the torso arches back, it actually just decreases that joint angle again, being the opposite of what raising the arms is trying to do.

Sitting on the ground (on your butt) it can be easier to grasp the idea. Specifically, if you sit next to a wall (on your butt) and try pushing up and into it, and feel what the torso needs to do to get that push to carry down to your butt into the ground, and simultaneously the push of your torso off the ground into the arms, rather than just causing a structural collapse at some intermediate point on the spine or at the shoulder joint. If any part of the the chain collapses (between hands and butt), force is bleeding out there. Why a person would be predisposed towards any one type of collapse would be a matter of ingrained movement habits.
A better idea is to stretch two bungee cords horizontally across a door frame about four inches apart and just below chest height. One for each hand, you can then push or you can pull
Or you can push and pull at the same time while slowly spiraling
These are a first step and sort of help with the more sophisticated aspects of manipulating different forces between hand and elbow and along all body parts, later. There are other methods for that, but at least the cables can help you get the shoulder out of the equation.
I used to use a heavy bag to push on as well. I would use the wall for other things involving the transfer of weight.
Lee, remember the arm is much more complex than single vectors. Thinking of forces just "coming out your hand" is sort of baby steps.
a. I would not think of push as much as lead, but to each their own.
b. I would keep in mind that the goal is that "contact" at any point on the arm should reveal the same level of connection, and there are bungee cord and paired exercises for that as well. The "angle" of the shoulder joint is actually an interesting discussion; while it should not matter in the long run -to you- because it is supported, you can make it matter TO THEM, becase it doesn't matter to you!
c. Contact or force on different parts with you moving connected and properly can lead to some very interesting effects on uke allowing you to enter at will.
Daito ryu has some interesting training models for how and why that happens that I have seen in some Master level Taiji teachers as well. To be honest, I have not seen it much in DR either. Example: Popkin knows things that- after watching dozens of videos of the Roppokai- I have never seen in their other students. There is also a form of push hands using the hands and arms, then the hands and arms AND the whole body as well, that is quite sophisticated in execution. I suspect most do not know these things because the old man did not teach everyone equally. It is interesting listening to DR people talk. Some look at you like they had never heard of this before, and then their buddy (who trained with the same teacher) not only knows and has seen it, he knows why it works and how to do it as well. Anyway, it sure makes it interesting reading students opinions on stuff on various forums when they talk about "What is, and what is not...in...their own arts."
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-09-2011 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 06-09-2011, 10:07 AM   #48
Lee Salzman
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 399
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A better idea is to stretch two bungee cords horizontally across a door frame about four inches apart and just below chest height. One for each hand, you can then push or you can pull
Or you can push and pull at the same time while slowly spiraling
These are a first step and sort of help with the more sophisticated aspects of manipulating different forces between hand and elbow and along all body parts, later. There are other methods for that, but at least the cables can help you get the shoulder out of the equation.
I used to use a heavy bag to push on as well. I would use the wall for other things involving the transfer of weight.
What do you think of things like the wrestling pummeling drill for this purpose? I have been using a similar drill to that, but with almost no stepping, and the underhooks are tightly maintained rather than released - so that each side must forcefully drill in to break the underhook without being uprooted to actually reverse the situation - and with more active use of the spine and neck to offbalance as well.

Quote:
Lee, remember the arm is much more complex than single vectors. Thinking of forces just "coming out your hand" is sort of baby steps.
That would put me in kindergarten. But the ABCs are starting to make some sense as of late... I am slowly catching on to just two directions through just the body, and it makes me feel consistently retarded, but just getting one direction felt even harder to me than that at first, and kiddie stuff or not, it's the basis for everything else I am working on.

Quote:
a. I would not think of push as much as lead, but to each their own.
I guess that's what it feels like. The bones poking each other, end on end. Should it not feel like that?

Quote:
b. I would keep in mind that the goal is that "contact" at any point on the arm should reveal the same level of connection, and there are bungee cord and paired exercises for that as well. The "angle" of the shoulder joint is actually an interesting discussion; while it should not matter in the long run -to you- because it is supported, you can make it matter TO THEM, becase it doesn't matter to you!
Yah, in the wall pushing that would be evident as a local collapse or some part rigidly freezing in place with tension, but at first it is just to get a taste of how to increase the directed pressure at both ends, then dissect it later. If the wall were removed, or gave way, every joint would move to some degree. Only easy to see local collapse with the wall, have to do it against a form of resistance that moves to spot freezing more clearly.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:12 PM   #49
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: playing with weight and a question

Lee
I've a feeling that you are still approaching things more like an isometric exercise. What if you took away all the feedback...what would you change?

I get no sense of bones sticking into each other end to end. You have seen me do the following drill at seminars (just did it again at Marcs).
I have someone push on my body
I send it to ground and back.
I then let it "hit' dantian and it comes back.
I then let it "hit" the surface and it echoes" off the surface of me.
I then go fluid all over while they push and I go completely fluid moving all around while they push on any body part? (Note* I have seen some internal gurus try this but you will quckly see they still have latent stiffness in their bodies).

Couple that with the one I do when I make kuzushi on them and then I walk freely all around them while maintaining kuzushi without adding or removing pressure yet my body was free to walk all around them and under the contact point and then even move behind them. Remember me patting Howard on the back of his head while keeping Kuzushi from the front? How do I do that if I am thinking of a type of rigidity between two points?
The fullness does not come from a "hard feel" but rather from a a very soft "full feel."
The connection exercises I gave you, coupled with the breathing exercises (remember the example I gave of the hot dog balloon inflatable man?) will get you there sans any need for feedback, much less that feeling that impart a sense of rigidity between bones or two points. It's both softer and rounder than that.
If you are playing with intent, this late in the game, you should be able to eliminate that sense of invasion, where they cannot get that path into you in the first place.
I wish you could get to a seminar earlier or stay after, where we could work one-on-one
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 06-10-2011 at 10:20 PM.
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