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Old 03-29-2011, 10:08 PM   #1
GhostBushido
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Need advice?

before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:32 PM   #2
Diana Frese
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Re: Need advice?

A new thread with a good question. In my opinion, both perspectives are possible in Aikido, some people favor one more, some the other. You will find many discussions relating to your question on Aiki Web! See what Aikido dojos are available in your area, and what the training emphasis is, and the frame of mind of the people. And I'll be interested to read what others answer to your questions. By the way, my husband has practiced Karate, Judo and Kung Fu, he says Aikido is real, he has tried it and so has his late brother, with whom he worked out for years in different martial arts, They even joined a boxing gym for a while out of curiosity. I like what one of my teachers once told me, that Aikido takes a lot of effort, but it gave back a lot to him. I wish I remembered exactly what he said, but I think I understand. In your case, what you bring to Aikido is important, not just your body but your frame of mind. Then in training, you learn from others. I hope I have helped encourage you to try Aikido.
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Old 03-29-2011, 10:47 PM   #3
crbateman
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Re: Need advice?

You may have answered your own question, Steven. As you have pointed out, some people say it works for them, while others say it is BS. You cannot force yourself into it. You can only try in earnest, and if you give it a bit of time, you will know if it suits you.
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Old 03-30-2011, 02:37 PM   #4
Marc Abrams
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Re: Need advice?

Steven:

People have a remarkable knack for creating the reality that they anticipated. If you look for those things, you can find them in your Aikido, karate, etc.. Work hard enough at what you seek to obtain and I am pretty sure you will find what you're looking for.

Good Luck on your journey!

Marc Abrams
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:06 PM   #5
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Need advice?

Sigh. Holding my tongue...

Good luck sir.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:58 PM   #6
Richard Stevens
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Re: Need advice?

No magic. Just hard work.
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:21 PM   #7
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Steven Perry wrote: View Post
before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!
Some of it is bullhit. Some of it isn't. BJJ and Judo are fairly standardised, you can turn up at one of their dojos and be fairly sure of what you'll find.
Aikido is totally different. We can't even define Aikido or agree on what it is or what it's for. Two dojo in the same association who's teachers are students of one teacher could be teaching radically different things.
All that can really be said about Aikido is that it's a bunch of people doing a bunch of things that they call Aikido. Beyond that any statement you make about Aikido is a sweeping generalisation.

Other than that the only thing I'd say is that you have to understand that Aikido isn't taught like Judo and BJJ are. You're not taught techniques in Aikido, you're taught kata and if you understand what's being taught in the kata, posture, timing, distancing, body mechanics, psychology then Aikido is a very powerful art.
If you think of it as being techniques then you end up with "But you can't catch punches" or "but that won't work against resistance."
Aikido is a very easy art to misunderstand.

Hope that helps.
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:02 PM   #8
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Re: Need advice?

My Aikido fits that description.

It is what you make it.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-30-2011, 07:41 PM   #9
Anjisan
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Ai symbol Re: Need advice?

There is such diversity out there within the Aikido community (for better or for worse) that one's time is initially probably spent finding the right teacher for you. Once that is done, follow your path.
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Old 03-30-2011, 11:30 PM   #10
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Steven Perry wrote: View Post
before i begin i mean no disrespect whatsoever but I am trying to answer a question so i come here looking for and answer.Aikido is an art in which the mystery has me wondering so much so people swear its on of the ultimate arts others say its complete bullshit. I currently do judo/bjj which was the safe bet grappling arts but i cant shake this thing inside of me for aikido. so let me explain what i want and u tell me if it can do this im looking for an art with history some spirituality yet i want it to be able to defend me if i need it to so I ask can i get an answer or opinion from you guys pro's cons of aikido good art or fairy magic! thanx!
Hello Steven,

I think you've basically summarized how we all have felt about Aikido at one point or another. And the answer doesn't come easily.

First off, what do you mean by "defend yourself". Seems like it should be pretty obvious as to what you mean, but "defend yourself" can mean lots of things.

First, and what you probably mean by "defend yourself" is: will Aikido help me to overcome other young males who insult my character or physically embarrass me. I call this "bravado fighting". It happens most often when young males compete for status. Aikido isn't great in this area (in my opinion). If you are looking for great ability in this area, Kickboxing, Bjj, Judo, MMA, and Wrestling are all better choices of study; again in my opinion.

If by "defend yourself" you mean: will Aikido training help me to survive a life threatening encounter, where people are interested in killing or severely maiming me. I believe yes, Aikido is a system designed around serious physical conflict; life and death struggle.

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Old 03-31-2011, 07:37 AM   #11
Ron Tisdale
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Re: Need advice?

Good post Chris. Always good to read your writing.

Best,
Ron

Ron Tisdale
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Old 03-31-2011, 01:06 PM   #12
Don Nordin
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Re: Need advice?

As Alex Said "
Quote:
You're not taught techniques in Aikido, you're taught kata and if you understand what's being taught in the kata, posture, timing, distancing, body mechanics, psychology then Aikido is a very powerful art.
If you think of it as being techniques then you end up with "But you can't catch punches" or "but that won't work against resistance."
Aikido is a very easy art to misunderstand.
Aikido can be what you want it to be, But it does appear to quite a bit of time to be proficenet in it. If you are already involved in Judo and BJJ you may be able to defend yourself better than the average person already, so you may want to think about what defense means to you. The sense of balance and timing used in Judo is similar to Aikido, I think. In my opinion you should probably start visiting Dojo's to see if it what you want.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:50 PM   #13
GhostBushido
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Re: Need advice?

ok let me explain myself im 6'0 295 of what i call fuscle fat and muscle.i have loved and done martial arts since i was a kid and i love the spiritual and cultural part and aikido has just always been an enigma to me so as im more than capable of defending myself do to alot of different style i have never acheived a high rank in a style and it is a goal and i at a point in life where im able to do that ! and this style always seem fantastic and rich in alot of things and nothign would make me more happy to be able to master(well as much as i can ) this style but i would like to know it truly works!
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:11 PM   #14
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Don Nordin wrote: View Post
As Alex Said "
Aikido can be what you want it to be.
Then Aikido is everything a human being can imagine. In fact the word "everything" and the word "Aikido" are now synonyms. BJJ is Aikido, Judo is Aikido if you want them to be, MMA is Aikido. Aikido can be a method of toilet cleaning or pie making if you want it to be.

In fact we can say that Aikido is 100% effective because I want Aikido to be whatever the winner in any fight used to beat the looser.

Quote:
But it does appear to quite a bit of time to be proficenet in it.
Only because you want it to. You could want Aikido to be something you could instantly master but you choose to make it something that is hard to learn.

What I actually said was that there are a lot of people doing a lot of things under the umbrella term Aikido. I didn't say that it could be anything one wanted.

Last edited by Ketsan : 03-31-2011 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 08:26 PM   #15
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Steven Perry wrote: View Post
ok let me explain myself im 6'0 295 of what i call fuscle fat and muscle.i have loved and done martial arts since i was a kid and i love the spiritual and cultural part and aikido has just always been an enigma to me so as im more than capable of defending myself do to alot of different style i have never acheived a high rank in a style and it is a goal and i at a point in life where im able to do that ! and this style always seem fantastic and rich in alot of things and nothign would make me more happy to be able to master(well as much as i can ) this style but i would like to know it truly works!
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole. Yes it works in self defence situations. The hard part is finding an instructor who teaches Aikido for self-defence.
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:14 AM   #16
John Connolly
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Re: Need advice?

If you are 6'0 and 295, you may take any martial art you want-- even the least effective, and still be effective. Just find something you enjoy or think is fun, and have fun and do it. If Aikido is beautiful and awesome to you, then it is what's best. Frankly, I really believe Aikido will be very good for your coordination, timing, sensitivity, and flexibility, but then, so will any martial art, Good luck in your search.

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Old 04-01-2011, 09:38 AM   #17
lbb
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.
They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things if you're a prison guard, or a football hooligan, or a brash young fella who perceives ego challenges from his fellow bar patrons once he's had a few, or a person in an abusive relationship, or a grownup who lives and works in a low-crime area and who keeps his nose clean. I'm sure that aikido has worked in all those situations; I'm also sure that it cannot always be relied on to save you from every situation. If, for example, you're someone who becomes aggressive and confrontational when you've been drinking, you shouldn't expect aikido to bail you out of those situations. It might work once, it might work twice, it might work many times, but it won't make you bulletproof. It won't work forever. It's a tool of last resort, not first resort.
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Old 04-01-2011, 10:57 AM   #18
Don Nordin
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Re: Need advice?

Yes it works but it takes time to learn. You seem to have the right attitude. You will learn which teacher emphasize self defense by visiting your local Dojos.
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Old 04-01-2011, 12:09 PM   #19
graham christian
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Re: Need advice?

Hi Steven.
Just read the other threads pertinent to your question and you'll see the various answers and opinions.

My answer would be this. Aikido ALWAYS works in all situations whether fight situations or life.

We learn the principles and apply them until we understand and are able to do at ease. It takes as long as it takes.

For me the problem with Aikido for everyone is this: The recognition that the aim is be confident and able enough so that when situations happen you handle them naturally with Aikido.

Most people in 'tight' situations REVERT to something else.

This applies to all martial arts too.

When is the last time you saw a practitioner of let's say praying mantis kung fu actually use that in a situation in life?

The point is only those who have reached that stage can in any art.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:45 PM   #20
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole.
This is a very true statement here.

If you want a specific answer, you'll have to ask a specific question. "Works" is very general, and "real" tends to be predicated on a false assumption (that there is something "not real").

The key is to understand what it is that you want to know, then form the best question you can, in order to get that answer. As you get better at asking questions, your knowledge will improve. It's not an easy path. Which is probably why there are not to many who are good at it, and we all keep asking the same vague questions over and over.

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Old 04-01-2011, 04:38 PM   #21
Hellis
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
You'll get a million responses asking what you mean by "works" now. And if you ask about a "real fight" then you'll get asked a million more questions about what a real fight is.

Aikiodka and straight answers are not on speaking terms on the whole. Yes it works in self defence situations. The hard part is finding an instructor who teaches Aikido for self-defence.
Alex

That is an excellent response.

Henry Ellis
Aikido Controversy
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 04-03-2011, 10:48 AM   #22
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things if you're a prison guard, or a football hooligan, or a brash young fella who perceives ego challenges from his fellow bar patrons once he's had a few, or a person in an abusive relationship, or a grownup who lives and works in a low-crime area and who keeps his nose clean. I'm sure that aikido has worked in all those situations; I'm also sure that it cannot always be relied on to save you from every situation. If, for example, you're someone who becomes aggressive and confrontational when you've been drinking, you shouldn't expect aikido to bail you out of those situations. It might work once, it might work twice, it might work many times, but it won't make you bulletproof. It won't work forever. It's a tool of last resort, not first resort.
All the above situations differ only in the differ only in the minutiae. Unless you're insisting that there is a radical difference between how a single individual would fight based on if he was a prisoner, in a bar or beating his girlfriend up. If a person transistions through being in a fight in a bar, gets arrested and has a pop at a prision officer and then beats his girlfriend up when he gets out would you expect his fighting style to transition also? No.

It's a straw man argument designed so Aikidoka don't have to seriously answer questions about Aikido as a martial art. People fight in two basic ways, they throw strikes, occasionally with weapons and they wrestle.

Again another classic strawman argument shows its face "It might work x number of times but it won't always work" the same thing is true of just about everything in life but you don't give up driving in case your car doesn't start one morning.

Self-defence is fighting; the same tactics and strategies work regardless of wheather you're mugging someone or trying not to get mugged. Also in all situations the goal is the same: quickly stop the opponent fighting back by achieving dominance.

"Self-defence" is just the lable we place on socially acceptable violence.
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Old 04-03-2011, 11:33 AM   #23
Janet Rosen
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Re: Need advice?

Alex, I disagree with your assertion that the skills or style needed are all the same.
First of all, Mary didn't cite a guy resisting arrest, she cited the needs of the arresting officer...A prison guard or a juvenile probation officer or a counselor in a mental health setting has a need to be able to do controls and takedowns but is not permitted to just haul off and beat the dickens out of those under his purview.
Secondly, the drunk spoiling for a brawl in a crowded bar is out to create maximum mayhem, but the typical wife abuser (or husband abuser, I imagine also) is in many scenarios out to create paralyzing fear and control, not actually send the spouse to the ER (unless we are talking about a way escalated situation such as the spouse filing for divorce or otherwise leaving). So often there is a slowness, a prolonged threat period, and a very controlled and purposeful blow.
Different goals > different intent > different use of body.

Janet Rosen
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Old 04-03-2011, 12:20 PM   #24
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
They're reasonable questions. "Fight" and "self-defense" mean different things
Are they? If someone came to you with two black eyes and said they'd had their wallet stolen by two men would you ask "Yes but were you in a fight?" Would that be a reasonable question?

The point is quite simple: We all know what a fight is until we try and fit Aikido into a fighting, dare I say martial, context. Then mysteriously many Aikidoka suddenly have no clue. They would have us believe that they wouldn't recognise a fight if they were in one. If they see violence on TV they think "I wonder what that is, what's going on? Why is that man waving his arms and legs at that other man?" and when their friend says "that's a fight" they say "Are you sure?". Somehow if a prisioner punches a prision guard that's different to one MMA fighter punching another or a guy punching his wife.
A guy could be punching them in the face and they'd be thinking "Is this fight or is it self-defence?" if the discussions in Aikiweb are anything to go by.

So I don't think these are resonable questions; they're questions to blend with and redirect the discussion away from the question while appearing to be trying to answer the question. Reasonable questions have reasonable answers; none of these questions have answers reasonable or otherwise.

Really it's a technical question; it doesn't require deep thought. What can you do against someone trying to punch you? What can you do against someone trying to kick you? What can you do if someone grabs you and tries to wrestle you to the ground? Are you significantly more likely to avoid harm in these three situations than an untrained person?

If you've answered those four questions then you've covered the bulk of of what people want to know when they ask how good Aikido is for fighting/self-defence. If you go beyond the technical then you're missing seeing the wood for the trees. After all what do you mean by a tree? There are oaks and beech and ash, are they trees or are they wood? That's the level of discussion about what a fight is on aikiweb.
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Old 04-03-2011, 12:26 PM   #25
Ketsan
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Re: Need advice?

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Alex, I disagree with your assertion that the skills or style needed are all the same.
First of all, Mary didn't cite a guy resisting arrest, she cited the needs of the arresting officer...A prison guard or a juvenile probation officer or a counselor in a mental health setting has a need to be able to do controls and takedowns but is not permitted to just haul off and beat the dickens out of those under his purview.
Secondly, the drunk spoiling for a brawl in a crowded bar is out to create maximum mayhem, but the typical wife abuser (or husband abuser, I imagine also) is in many scenarios out to create paralyzing fear and control, not actually send the spouse to the ER (unless we are talking about a way escalated situation such as the spouse filing for divorce or otherwise leaving). So often there is a slowness, a prolonged threat period, and a very controlled and purposeful blow.
Different goals > different intent > different use of body.
Yes but only minior differences in the use of the body. If you're taking down someone in a professional context you're not doing too much different to someone with an intent to kill, physically speaking. The principles of pins and take downs don't differ with the intent of their use because the body doesn't change. Homo sapiends tend to be very much a like physically.

I mean I can do irimi nage in several ways: I can slam someone onto their head with massive force or I can gently take them down, but at the basic level what I'm doing is irimi nage. If you can do one you can do the rest.

Last edited by Ketsan : 04-03-2011 at 12:30 PM.
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