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Old 04-06-2011, 02:25 AM   #251
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Global fallout forecast:

Link
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:55 AM   #252
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
What are you referring to, Graham?
Loriens first paragraph.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:36 AM   #253
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Graham,

How can you believe or not believe in an issue while simultaneously admitting complete ignorance of it? I don't see any politicians addressing AGW. If you had at least read the Lovelock article, you would know Kyoto treaty and carbon offsetting is a business scam. Real mitigation of AGW means the end of business and the global economy as we know it entirely. If you think this is wild you should check out my thread on peak oil in this same forum.
Easy Tenyu. By being honest. You use the words 'complete ignorance' implying I did. Come on now that's just not cricket!
Without too much inspection were my words. = Some data. This leads to an opinion or belief, a kind of at the moment belief. It also means I don't truly know.

You love the old doomsday scenarios don't you. Do you realize that the vast majority of people on this planet do know through common sense that if you keep on a mad course it ends in disaster and doom. They know if you go dropping nuclear bombs then that's it. They know the devastating effects of radiation. They know if some alternative energy sources are not ready for when oil runs out it's all doom and gloom from there.

Let me put it this way. Since the year dot the stories of danger and doom, the stories of those dangerous people over there, those monsters are coming to get you. All have been used to manipulate and control others into doing what they want them to. Control by fear.

In this day and age it's no different. Just give multiple sources of people saying the same thing and everyone will believe you. That's standard intelligence operation. As well as getting Authorities to say what is perceived to be wanted by the controlling interests.

So giving me multiple sources and authorities? Not interested.

It shows me only someone trying to manipulate whether for what they see as a good reason or some other reason. In their delusion from my view the manipulator thinks he has to CONVINCE others.

No need to convince anyone of anything. Just point out a scene and allow them to study both sides of the argument if they are interested and thus they will become more educated and able to make their own mind up. No convincing, no controlling, no manipulating.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:01 AM   #254
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Easy Tenyu. By being honest. You use the words 'complete ignorance' implying I did. Come on now that's just not cricket!
Without too much inspection were my words. = Some data. This leads to an opinion or belief, a kind of at the moment belief. It also means I don't truly know.
I DIG IT!!! I really enjoyed reading this post, Graham. Thank you. Most scientists seem to support the notion that global warming is something to be concerned about. The last environmental science class I took led me to believe carbon probably isn't the real issue, though it's somewhat inconclusive one way or t'other. The question is how much are we adding to the pressure-cooker that is our atmosphere; are we adding some small-but-critical amount to the warming functions which will cause some radical shift we cannot keep pace with?
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
...That and the fact that we live on a speck within a tiny bubble in blood-boiling space and that the speck we live on could utter a big belch and darn near kill us all.
Have a nice day.
Take care,
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:48 AM   #255
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Easy Tenyu. By being honest. You use the words 'complete ignorance' implying I did. Come on now that's just not cricket!
Without too much inspection were my words. = Some data. This leads to an opinion or belief, a kind of at the moment belief. It also means I don't truly know.

You love the old doomsday scenarios don't you. Do you realize that the vast majority of people on this planet do know through common sense that if you keep on a mad course it ends in disaster and doom. They know if you go dropping nuclear bombs then that's it. They know the devastating effects of radiation. They know if some alternative energy sources are not ready for when oil runs out it's all doom and gloom from there.

Let me put it this way. Since the year dot the stories of danger and doom, the stories of those dangerous people over there, those monsters are coming to get you. All have been used to manipulate and control others into doing what they want them to. Control by fear.

In this day and age it's no different. Just give multiple sources of people saying the same thing and everyone will believe you. That's standard intelligence operation. As well as getting Authorities to say what is perceived to be wanted by the controlling interests.

So giving me multiple sources and authorities? Not interested.

It shows me only someone trying to manipulate whether for what they see as a good reason or some other reason. In their delusion from my view the manipulator thinks he has to CONVINCE others.

No need to convince anyone of anything. Just point out a scene and allow them to study both sides of the argument if they are interested and thus they will become more educated and able to make their own mind up. No convincing, no controlling, no manipulating.

Regards.G.
Graham,

I don't mind digging up and sharing climate change information here because other people will be able to see it but I really doubt you'll take the time to understand it yourself. You haven't read or watched the information I presented in the peak oil thread or you wouldn't be replying to me yet. You also claimed everything in Ascent Of Humanity is old hat for you, an obviously disingenuous statement because we both know you didn't read it in one day and you'd also know your doomsday boogeyman meme comment, albeit entertaining, was also specifically addressed in the book. I'm not upset, I just don't relate to your lackadaisical treatment of grave issues. Most people who learned about peak oil in the 21st century go through a phase where they try to inform all their friends and family about it, including myself. Very few are psychologically capable of understanding the predicament we're in. WWII will feel like a mosquito bite in comparison. Most people give up trying to inform anyone outside their inner circles and I don't blame them. In 1999 when oil was only $16/barrel, people would've laughed at you if you told them oil would reach $147/barrel in 2008, brent crude just re-passed $120/barrel but these prices are now considered normal although astonishingly peak oil still isn't common knowledge. The people who are able to understand will learn on their own after being given the right leads. There's no manipulation and agenda among the geologists, climatologists, and ecologists. The data and science speak on their own.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:53 AM   #256
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Smile Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I DIG IT!!! I really enjoyed reading this post, Graham. Thank you. Most scientists seem to support the notion that global warming is something to be concerned about. The last environmental science class I took led me to believe carbon probably isn't the real issue, though it's somewhat inconclusive one way or t'other. The question is how much are we adding to the pressure-cooker that is our atmosphere; are we adding some small-but-critical amount to the warming functions which will cause some radical shift we cannot keep pace with?
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.
...That and the fact that we live on a speck within a tiny bubble in blood-boiling space and that the speck we live on could utter a big belch and darn near kill us all.
Have a nice day.
Take care,
Matt
Thanx. IT's been a blast!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:16 PM   #257
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Unless you're talking about something worse than Permian–Triassic extincion, I'm not worried.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:29 PM   #258
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Unless you're talking about something worse than Permian--Triassic extincion, I'm not worried.
I like the hard attitude.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:42 PM   #259
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Well, life on Earth recovered, and you puny humans are not going to stay here forever,

Really, in the grand scheme of things this event (or what is discussed in AOH thread) is irrelevant.

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Old 04-06-2011, 01:44 PM   #260
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Well, life on Earth recovered, and you puny humans are not going to stay here forever,

Really, in the grand scheme of things this event (or what is discussed in AOH thread) is irrelevant.

What if we build giant engines and just turn the Earth into a mobile home? Nah...we'd just discover some new cosmic form of tornado.
Oh well...back to the old drawing board...

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:30 PM   #261
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

If I take the time to dig up the data to support each of my statements, will you take the time to read and seriously consider them? Or will you say, 'Oh, the AAAS is clearly a biased organization,' or, 'Oh, that scientist is clearly getting rich by preaching climate change,' without bothering to actually address the studies presented?

Most climate change doubt long ago left the realm of skepticism for the realm of denialism, and is now entering the realm of conspiracy theory; where do you stand on that spectrum? Are you swayable by a preponderance of data and scientific opinion?

@ Tenyu, it's not just oil*. There's also coal (quite a lot of it), tar, and natural gas, and if we are desperate enough to try to switch to coal we will not only stave off the end for a while but immensely exacerbate both climate change and air quality. I do not, at all, deny that there is a serious problem in the works - but I do hope that we can ease the transition and thereby limit the pain and suffering that it will cause.

*regardless of their profit margins, they are making billions in net profit and spending vast quantities on buying politicians and professional think-tank doubt-makers.

Last edited by Lorien Lowe : 04-06-2011 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:28 PM   #262
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Graham,

I don't mind digging up and sharing climate change information here because other people will be able to see it but I really doubt you'll take the time to understand it yourself. You haven't read or watched the information I presented in the peak oil thread or you wouldn't be replying to me yet. You also claimed everything in Ascent Of Humanity is old hat for you, an obviously disingenuous statement because we both know you didn't read it in one day and you'd also know your doomsday boogeyman meme comment, albeit entertaining, was also specifically addressed in the book. I'm not upset, I just don't relate to your lackadaisical treatment of grave issues. Most people who learned about peak oil in the 21st century go through a phase where they try to inform all their friends and family about it, including myself. Very few are psychologically capable of understanding the predicament we're in. WWII will feel like a mosquito bite in comparison. Most people give up trying to inform anyone outside their inner circles and I don't blame them. In 1999 when oil was only $16/barrel, people would've laughed at you if you told them oil would reach $147/barrel in 2008, brent crude just re-passed $120/barrel but these prices are now considered normal although astonishingly peak oil still isn't common knowledge. The people who are able to understand will learn on their own after being given the right leads. There's no manipulation and agenda among the geologists, climatologists, and ecologists. The data and science speak on their own.
Tenyu. Same ol same ol.

My laxadaisical attitude eh? Fair enough. I would call it more of a bored one.

Let me put it simply. I remember the cold war.

The cycle now is no different to the cycles of the past.

Some races got wiped out like the incas for example.

Some empires got destroyed. Like the roman empire.

Some countries got overrun and uprooted like the Tibetans.

All similar in respect of being no more from their viewpoint.

You are now talking about a threat to the whole human race.

Same cycle, different scale. It's just the same old cycle of ignorance and the effect of it. As I said, nothing new to me.

So if you were to study from this viewpoint you would find the various solutions that worked in the past compared to the ones that didn't for they are all solutions to the same cycle. A far more fruitful exercise I would suggest.

You may be surprised. To think that the best solutions, the ones that resulted in great change for the better were ideas!

Ideas that resonated with the whole and brought about great change. Ideas that defeated the negative monster. Ideas that permeated the world consciousness.

You can also search history and find underlying wants and needs shared by all which were handled by an idea which resulted in worldwide change. How do you think the internet or even the telephone came into being and became such hugely popular and worldwide accepted things?

So I am saying a better idea is needed and I am saying every person on the planet wants that better idea to be found and put into practice. If you believe you are not interested in the best solution or indeed then you are deluding yourself.

So banging on about how corrupt 'they' are and Authorities that say this and that may be useful if it leads to someone coming up with a perfect solution and thus a way foreward but as you say the situation is so dire then I put it to you thats even more reason to come up with a solution, an idea that permeates the consciousness of all parties concerned.

Thus I can say I have faith for I know what I have faith in. It is what IS needed in this present time.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:06 AM   #263
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Graham,

You could learn a lot from this site.

Lorien,

I believe the paradox and denial of peak oil surrounds the fact any conventional mitigation of pain and suffering now will only add to even greater pain and suffering, perhaps extinction, in the future.

Albert Bartlett explains in this video series.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:33 AM   #264
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Graham,

You could learn a lot from this site.

Lorien,

I believe the paradox and denial of peak oil surrounds the fact any conventional mitigation of pain and suffering now will only add to even greater pain and suffering, perhaps extinction, in the future.

Albert Bartlett explains in this video series.
Tenyu.
As they say in the british parliament 'I'll refer you to the answer I gave a moment ago.'

Maybe we could have a vote at the end of this debate like in parliament.

The ayes to the left..... The nays to the right....

The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

Cordially.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 04-07-2011 at 11:34 AM. Reason: SPELLING
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:30 PM   #265
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Some races got wiped out like the incas for example.

Some empires got destroyed. Like the roman empire.

Some countries got overrun and uprooted like the Tibetans.
And someday, the sun will expand into a planetary nebula and the earth will be fried, so none of it matters, eh?

Quote:
the best solutions, the ones that resulted in great change for the better were ideas!

Ideas that resonated with the whole and brought about great change. Ideas that defeated the negative monster. Ideas that permeated the world consciousness.
Ok, you have an idea? Let's hear it. No? Then maybe stop going on about how there's not really a problem.

Also, I repeat my question: If I present the data, will you read it and seriously consider it without automatically ad-homing the respective authors?
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:58 PM   #266
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
You may be surprised. To think that the best solutions, the ones that resulted in great change for the better were ideas!

Ideas that resonated with the whole and brought about great change. Ideas that defeated the negative monster. Ideas that permeated the world consciousness.

You can also search history and find underlying wants and needs shared by all which were handled by an idea which resulted in worldwide change. How do you think the internet or even the telephone came into being and became such hugely popular and worldwide accepted things?
Well, they didn't really come about through "ideas", not the way you're thinking of them. You're positing some kind of group consciousness whereby everybody has an instinctive sense for a good idea -- and by implication, also has a native sense of restraint and appropriateness that allows them to distinguish their wants from their needs. In fact, the internet and the telephone both came into being and were popularized through a series of events and forces, none of which really had anything to do with whether they were a good idea or fulfilled a real need.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So I am saying a better idea is needed and I am saying every person on the planet wants that better idea to be found and put into practice.
Oh, I'm sure they do. But your use of the passive voice is very telling here. People, at least people living in comfort in the industrialized world, want a better idea to be found. They want it to be put into practice. By whom? By someone else, apparently. They don't want to do the hard work and the heavy lifting that are needed to produce useful and workable ideas, and even more so are needed to implement them. They don't want to sit down with people of different views and work towards an idea that provides solutions for all. They want it to all just magically happen.

This sort of harmonious mysticism, to put it bluntly, is crap. Developing viable ideas is hard work. Achieving consensus is hard work. It involves getting into the areas of disharmony, shining the light on them and understanding them, rather than floating off in some ethereal haze in search of a more congenial and harmonious place. It means working through things and not just sitting around waiting for harmony to well up out of our collective unconsciousness or descend like the gentle rain from the heavens.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
So banging on about how corrupt 'they' are and Authorities that say this and that may be useful if it leads to someone coming up with a perfect solution and thus a way foreward but as you say the situation is so dire then I put it to you thats even more reason to come up with a solution, an idea that permeates the consciousness of all parties concerned.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You expect a "perfect solution"? You're barking up the wrong tree. You've just created conditions that are impossible to fulfill.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Thus I can say I have faith for I know what I have faith in. It is what IS needed in this present time.
Perfect ideas descending from heaven in a rain of universal harmony, creating world-wide acceptance among all? Good luck with that. It ain't about to happen. If you want any solution, be prepared to get your hands dirty.
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Old 04-07-2011, 05:27 PM   #267
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Maryand Lorien. Sorry but perfect solutions are both necessary and are many.

A solution which solves a problem equals no more problem. Good.

A solution which solves a problem without causing harm. Even better.

A solution which does the above and also brings about a better future. Perfect.

People like yhe third one best, they gravitate towards it. Not mystical.

People get together and solve problems in such a fashion every day. Not impossible.

It takes many factors but that doesn't mean it's not done.

It takes honesty number one from both sides. Then establishing what the desires, the intentions, the purposes are. That's just the start for if one sides purpose for example is counter to the other sides then we have a problem already. Thus that needs to be addressed first. You get the idea? It's a process.

This process is methodical, bit by bit to unravel what the true causes of the problem are, then on discovering that both sides can see what they didn't before.

Then we have progress in the right direction and we keep going on this process and we enter various ways foreward and we weigh up the pros and cons. Through this process many ideas are discussed and tested in a search for the most optimum.

A process. Then plans of how to put them into effect and programmes to be followed etc.

Hardly mystical.

In fact all inventors get a bright idea first and then work through the process of how to bring it into being and what form it would take and all the other variables.

Ideas are powerful and useful and necessary.

So let's let's say we start with the idea that you cant have a perfect solution.

Wow. You have already lost.

Regards. G.
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Old 04-07-2011, 07:14 PM   #268
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

State of emergency declared at Onagawa nuclear power plant.

Link

Link

west of Onagawa
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:54 PM   #269
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Ok, Graham:
You don't have any workable ideas.
You won't address the data.
Good to know. Now stop whining about how the rest of us are trying to handle it, ok? I believe the moral is, 'lead, follow, or get out of the way.'

@ Tenyu: I'm pretty sure that I've seen that series of vids before, but I want to watch all 8 to make sure I'm not missing any points. I do have some criticisms, but I wish to be complete.

edit: in the mean time, here's an interesting link about where our energy comes from.
http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy..._mexico_canada
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:21 AM   #270
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post

@ Tenyu: I'm pretty sure that I've seen that series of vids before, but I want to watch all 8 to make sure I'm not missing any points. I do have some criticisms, but I wish to be complete.

edit: in the mean time, here's an interesting link about where our energy comes from.
http://www.salon.com/news/env/energy..._mexico_canada
Lorien,

That's ridiculous if they build Keystone through Ogallala. Less then five years ago Mexico was the leading exporter to the states. They had the second largest producing high quality light sweet oil field in history called Cantarell. Because its production went off its individual cliff several years ago, the drug cartels have filled in for lost revenue. This report is a short and sobering account of just how fast peak oil is happening. Oil wars are intensifying to impose demand destruction, to put it euphemistically 'externalizing production costs'. Of course 'internally' the domestic economic collapse via a decade of severe top down fraudulent real estate was engineered to coincide with peak oil. The media does a good job of making people believe recovery's right around the corner, in reality we're heading into the greatest depression ever and there'll never be a recovery, nor should there be, of our unsustainable infinite growth/consumption/destruction/debt based system. They can print money infinitely but they can't print energy.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:25 AM   #271
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Wow. You have already lost.
Wow. You didn't read or try to understand a single thing I said. The shoe fits; you just don't like wearing it.

I'm done non-discussing these issues with you. Lead, follow or get out of the way, indeed.
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:36 PM   #272
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

The current recession is not an energy recession, relatively high gas prices notwithstanding. The energy depression has yet to hit in any significant way, because there are still 'bad' energy resources such as tar and coal to turn to.
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Old 04-08-2011, 02:39 PM   #273
graham christian
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Wow. You didn't read or try to understand a single thing I said. The shoe fits; you just don't like wearing it.

I'm done non-discussing these issues with you. Lead, follow or get out of the way, indeed.
Mary and Lorien.

Lead, follow or get out of the way? Indeed that seems to fit with you two. I've already followed you. You lead to come and see how bad it all is. O.K. Been there. now what?

Oh I forgot, now go there and see how bad it is . O.K. done that. Now what? Oh same again.

Or am I being too simplistic. Yes I am because it's followed by 'so we need to get rid of.' Yeah that about sums it up.

I wouldn't mind betting that is your views in your own lives no?

A bit too annhihallistic for me or even dictatorial.

Regards.G.
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Old 04-08-2011, 03:23 PM   #274
Tenyu
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Quote:
Lorien Lowe wrote: View Post
The current recession is not an energy recession, relatively high gas prices notwithstanding. The energy depression has yet to hit in any significant way, because there are still 'bad' energy resources such as tar and coal to turn to.
My point is that the banks knew when cheap energy would peak, so they repealed Glass-Steagall in 1999 which led to this derivatives and housing scheme to 'transfer' wealth as much as possible at the right time. Did you disagree with any of Bartlett's video?
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Old 04-08-2011, 05:21 PM   #275
Lorien Lowe
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Re: The fact that you believe a nuclear plant can explode....

Ok, having watched the video I don't have much to add or to comment, except that the republicans trying to shut down the government over defunding birth control seems just that much more obscene now.

Here are a few links for people looking for solutions, though:
http://ukiahcommunityblog.wordpress.com/
(lots of discussions on peak oil, among other things)
http://www.sustainable-economy.org/
http://www.oeconline.org/our-work/economy
http://www.economicsforaroundearth.c...-steady-state/
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