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Old 03-04-2011, 09:22 AM   #1
itaborai83
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For those who came from a Striking Art ...

like Karate, Kempo, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, etc ... What did you find appealing in Aikido and why did you decide to start training it?

regards,
Daniel
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:20 AM   #2
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
like Karate, Kempo, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do, etc ... What did you find appealing in Aikido and why did you decide to start training it?

regards,
Daniel
Curiosity..... Another something to add to the experience I had so far then....I was interested in the joint locks and how they can be applied...
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Old 03-04-2011, 10:46 AM   #3
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Curiosity: why those guys are going airborne?

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Old 03-04-2011, 10:59 AM   #4
Tenyu
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.

To throw uke, one needs to strike with uke.
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Old 03-04-2011, 11:39 AM   #5
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

We don't see any atemi in aikido today!!. Its the first thing I teach before the "aikido" teaching takes place.... The atemi I see today in most dojo is just laughable.....
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:07 PM   #6
itaborai83
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
We don't see any atemi in aikido today!!. Its the first thing I teach before the "aikido" teaching takes place.... The atemi I see today in most dojo is just laughable.....
IMHO, specially Yokomen and Shomen uchi. It´s ok to train slowly, but not everyone seems to be able to attack slowly and maintain enery/force to allow the technique to be applied. It gets really awkward trying to work with noodle arms.

> Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.
> To throw uke, one needs to strike with uke.

Tenyu,

Could elaborate a little more? Thanks

regards,
Daniel
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:22 PM   #7
Don Nordin
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Philosophy and the potential for a martial art that can be practiced until a ripe old age.
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:35 PM   #8
SeiserL
 
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

From FMA/JKD, Aikido was just a natural progressive process.

Going from the harder external to the softer internal.

Congruence in philosophy and application.

And they look really cool.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-04-2011, 01:46 PM   #9
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
IMHO, specially Yokomen and Shomen uchi. It´s ok to train slowly, but not everyone seems to be able to attack slowly and maintain enery/force to allow the technique to be applied. It gets really awkward trying to work with noodle arms.

> Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.
> To throw uke, one needs to strike with uke.

Tenyu,

Could elaborate a little more? Thanks

regards,
Daniel
With pleasure.... Yokomen and shomenuchi are sword cuts essentually and can be used for atemi and are, we also include punching and kicking as from karate also the direct staccato punching from wing chun, elbows, knees and palm strikes....

The pathetic attempts I see in many dojo makes me want to puke....
Of course start gently and work up to full blows, that's common sense old boy....
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:18 PM   #10
itaborai83
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Thanks for all the replies!

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
With pleasure.... Yokomen and shomenuchi are sword cuts essentually and can be used for atemi and are, we also include punching and kicking as from karate also the direct staccato punching from wing chun, elbows, knees and palm strikes....
Attilio,

I would love to see some of that staccato punching mixed up with Aikido. Got any videos?

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Daniel,

In every Aikido throw nage should be striking with uke at a grounded asymptote. I know it's difficult to visualize this with certain techniques especially in moments where uke isn't physically connected to nage. It's a lot more subtle than the staff because it requires so little power in comparison that the strike can appear invisible. It's very obvious though to any practitioner with over half a year of good weapons study.
Tenyu,

I appreciate your reply, but I can't say I understand your terminology. I know you've used it before in the forum, but googling for the term I could only find 4 hits, one of them being this thread. Would you care to elaborate a little more and perhaps tell us why you chose to you use it? Thanks in advance.

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
From FMA/JKD, Aikido was just a natural progressive process.

Going from the harder external to the softer internal.

Congruence in philosophy and application.

And they look really cool.
Lynn,

To me, it feels cool as hell also. There's nothing like doing the technique and seeing how so "little" can do so "much". It boggles my mind to this day.

Quote:
Don Nordin wrote: View Post
Philosophy and the potential for a martial art that can be practiced until a ripe old age.
Don,

I would very much like to train to ripe old age, but sometimes I wonder about the repercussions of taking hard ukemi over the years. I just wish to get there healthy.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Curiosity: why those guys are going airborne?
Demetrio,

When it works it is awesome! ... but for me, it has been a journey filled with a lot of head scratching.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Curiosity..... Another something to add to the experience I had so far then....I was interested in the joint locks and how they can be applied...
Attilio,

I really liked the joint locks and used to try and (dumbly) resist them during training, until I received a sankyo directly to the middle joint of my ring finger .... hurts like a motherf%$ker every single day and it has been over a year. I've watched some Daito Ryu videos on the internet and I find it their joint lock stuff fascinating. Any thoughts on those?

regards,
Daniel
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Old 03-04-2011, 07:22 PM   #11
John O'Rorey
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Good police departments train in Yokomen and a few variations for stunning/debilitating.

As far as coming from another "art" I don't know if you'd count boxing. But, I went to Aikido for police work, multiple attacker, and greater awareness. I got a whole lot more than I was intentionally looking for!(In a good way!)
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Old 03-04-2011, 09:22 PM   #12
Michael Varin
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

What I typically find lacking from most "striking art" related threads is an attempt to analyze the strikes that we find within aikido, and then to ask ourselves whether the 1-2 from boxing or kicks and strikes from karate or TKD, etc. truly fit within the techniques, tactics, and strategy of aikido.

This is not to say that those are not valid and effective martial techniques that are worth learning and understanding. But it is foolish to look to aikido to technically improve your boxing.

If we fail to understand the context of our art, can we say that we understand it at all?

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:31 AM   #13
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
Thanks for all the replies!

Attilio,

I would love to see some of that staccato punching mixed up with Aikido. Got any videos?

Tenyu,

I appreciate your reply, but I can't say I understand your terminology. I know you've used it before in the forum, but googling for the term I could only find 4 hits, one of them being this thread. Would you care to elaborate a little more and perhaps tell us why you chose to you use it? Thanks in advance.

Lynn,

To me, it feels cool as hell also. There's nothing like doing the technique and seeing how so "little" can do so "much". It boggles my mind to this day.

Don,

I would very much like to train to ripe old age, but sometimes I wonder about the repercussions of taking hard ukemi over the years. I just wish to get there healthy.

Demetrio,

When it works it is awesome! ... but for me, it has been a journey filled with a lot of head scratching.

Attilio,

I really liked the joint locks and used to try and (dumbly) resist them during training, until I received a sankyo directly to the middle joint of my ring finger .... hurts like a motherf%$ker every single day and it has been over a year. I've watched some Daito Ryu videos on the internet and I find it their joint lock stuff fascinating. Any thoughts on those?

regards,
Daniel
If some one is coming in with staccato punches you will be unable to catch them, or block them at best, it would be better to avoid to the side or at an angle to counter attack or enter behind your opponent and take them from the rear in ushiro ate, this require fast footwork....

The smaller a joint is the easier it is to manipulate it, however if you are trying to manipulate a wrist when the fist is clenched and close to the body you will find it impossible. When players in Shodokan tanto randori wrestle in close trying to gain a wrist waza, they find it very hard to get a tekubi waza score, this is why they switch or attempt to switch to a "bigger" technique such as shomen ate or gyakugamae ate or gedan ate.

The difficulty of tekubi waza is about perfect timing and speed in making sure the wrist is as far away from the body as possible when one attempts to catch the arm and apply a wrist waza. In other words the farther the wrist is away from the body the easier it is to apply a wrist technique. It would be far easier to just strike your opponent in tanto randori shiai, but that is not allowed which makes it very hard to apply waza. However one can practice their atemi if one is wearing some kind of head protection. This does have a better effect and enables a widow for you to apply a wrist waza. I have used shomen ate for real in a self defence. It is a very effective technique....
An old saying of one of my old teachers was "if in doubt up the snout"
It's like this if you are in a situation where you would need to defend your self, atemi would be the first line of defence, quickly followed by a controlling technique or throw down....
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:45 AM   #14
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
John O'Rorey wrote: View Post
Good police departments train in Yokomen and a few variations for stunning/debilitating.

As far as coming from another "art" I don't know if you'd count boxing. But, I went to Aikido for police work, multiple attacker, and greater awareness. I got a whole lot more than I was intentionally looking for!(In a good way!)
Yes, employment of the telescopic asp is the usual method employed by police here. The basic stance is for a yokomen strike, usually aimed at the limbs, upper arms or thighs or shins and arm entanglement such as udegarame for take down....
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Old 03-05-2011, 11:52 AM   #15
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
What I typically find lacking from most "striking art" related threads is an attempt to analyze the strikes that we find within aikido, and then to ask ourselves whether the 1-2 from boxing or kicks and strikes from karate or TKD, etc. truly fit within the techniques, tactics, and strategy of aikido.

This is not to say that those are not valid and effective martial techniques that are worth learning and understanding. But it is foolish to look to aikido to technically improve your boxing.

If we fail to understand the context of our art, can we say that we understand it at all?
But I would look at boxing to improve my aikido....
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Old 03-05-2011, 05:10 PM   #16
Dave Plaza
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

I came from years of boxing to Aikido... What attracted me to Aikido, is the idea behind it, the cleverness of it I guess. And that it's an art that you can improve at with age.

Can you use Aikido against a seasoned boxer? not that much... It's pretty hard to get hold of them... But I have used the footwork of Aikido to get behind a boxer in the ring (as I still spar occasionally), and it was pretty amazing as I ended up right behind him and had the time to think "wow, look where I am" and had a little laugh to myself... Unfortunately (in this instance) in boxing you can't punch the back of the head.

Because of this, I believe training with realistic atemi (and by this I mean your strikes and ukes) is pretty important if you want to do some serious damage to someone... Not that i do, but it's good to have it up your sleeve right???

The fookwork in Aikido is brilliant for getting you into a position to get some nasty strikes in, and I'm glad of my boxing experience as it has helped me realise this.

Dave

Last edited by Dave Plaza : 03-05-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 03-05-2011, 06:02 PM   #17
lbb
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

I started training in aikido because I moved to somewhere where there weren't any non-McDojo striking arts, but there was a good aikido dojo. As they say on the old Monty Python shows, "Start again..."
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:34 PM   #18
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Daniel Itaboraí wrote: View Post
> Aikido is fundamentally a striking art.
> To throw uke, one needs to strike with uke.

Tenyu,

Could elaborate a little more? Thanks

regards,
Daniel
95% of your mat technique is atemi

Lyle Laizure
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Deru kugi wa uta reru
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:19 AM   #19
Walter Martindale
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Disclaimer: Not from striking art.
One sensei said "hit him with the planet" (throw him to the ground)
why risk breaking bones in hand?
W
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:33 AM   #20
sakumeikan
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

On the question of Atemi-what constitutes atemi? If you enter in to close the gap between yourself and the opponent is this defined as an atemi, inasmuch you are advancing in a positive manner to execute a waza? There may well be potential openings to punch /kick the guy but you may not use this method.Waza such as Tenchi Nage, Irimi Nage , Shiho Nage , Ikkyo all have potential to introduce atemi , but do you have to punch the guy in the hooter[nose] to make things work? I dont think so.Even if one uses tenkan to apply the waza the fact that you move to the side or behind the guy, again there are opportunities to inflict pain. My view is this , you should be able to use atemi , but choose not to [unless its really the only option.]
A choice between Iron Fist or Buddha Heart.I prefer the compassionate way of resolving issues.
Cheers, Joe.
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:04 AM   #21
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
On the question of Atemi-what constitutes atemi? If you enter in to close the gap between yourself and the opponent is this defined as an atemi, inasmuch you are advancing in a positive manner to execute a waza? There may well be potential openings to punch /kick the guy but you may not use this method.Waza such as Tenchi Nage, Irimi Nage , Shiho Nage , Ikkyo all have potential to introduce atemi , but do you have to punch the guy in the hooter[nose] to make things work? I dont think so.Even if one uses tenkan to apply the waza the fact that you move to the side or behind the guy, again there are opportunities to inflict pain. My view is this , you should be able to use atemi , but choose not to [unless its really the only option.]
A choice between Iron Fist or Buddha Heart.I prefer the compassionate way of resolving issues.
Cheers, Joe.
I understand where you are coming from Joe, but I don't think it hurts to practice atemi and to see where it can be applied within one's waza, if the need arises. For example Tenchi nage to us Shodothugs is shomenate
Youtube 0:21/3:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ9A...eature=related

Also
0:11/3:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeyas...eature=related

I don't see much difference in that from traditional aikido....
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:05 AM   #22
sakumeikan
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I understand where you are coming from Joe, but I don't think it hurts to practice atemi and to see where it can be applied within one's waza, if the need arises. For example Tenchi nage to us Shodothugs is shomenate
Youtube 0:21/3:20 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQ9A...eature=related

Also
0:11/3:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeyas...eature=related

I don't see much difference in that from traditional aikido....
Tony,
The first example of the clips is as rough as a badgers bum.Sloppy waza, poor postures, looked like badly executed judo.Not my cup of darjeeling.
Cheers, Joe
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:22 AM   #23
AsimHanif
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
But it is foolish to look to aikido to technically improve your boxing.
Would have to say I totally disagree with this. But I guess it depends on 'your' aikido. And I think the converse can also be true.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:23 AM   #24
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: For those who came from a Striking Art ...

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Tony,
The first example of the clips is as rough as a badgers bum.Sloppy waza, poor postures, looked like badly executed judo.Not my cup of darjeeling.
Cheers, Joe
Quite....

But competition aikido is rough as a badgers bum, its the reality against a resisting player, sorry it disappointed you....

Cheers, Tiny....
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