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Old 03-08-2011, 09:24 AM   #76
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Thanks Inocencio.... That made my day!!
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Old 03-08-2011, 09:52 AM   #77
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Thanks Inocencio.... That made my day!!
You're welcome, Tony..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:14 AM   #78
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Now that really worries me......
Tony

You should be worried, we are taking our Jo's dancing to the Hammersmith Palais next Saturday...( I apologise in advace if I upset the ` humour mods ` )

Henry Ellis
Aikido Blogs
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:18 AM   #79
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

You should be worried, we are taking our Jo's dancing to the Hammersmith Palais next Saturday...( I apologise in advace if I upset the ` humour mods ` )

Henry Ellis
Aikido Blogs
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
That wouldn't happen to be Jo Anna and her sister would it?.
Don't suppose you could get me an invite as well?
I've got a nice broom that I could bring....
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:31 AM   #80
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
That wouldn't happen to be Jo Anna and her sister would it?.
Don't suppose you could get me an invite as well?
I've got a nice broom that I could bring....
Tony

I am sure that you would be welcome, I understand Joe Tetley's band is playing this season. could be a cosy get together.
Maybe even become the annual AW event....

Henry Ellis
Silence is Approval
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-08-2011, 01:14 PM   #81
Ketsan
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

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Graham Christian wrote: View Post
A fair enough point. However then a person who studies should take that viewpoint and apply it to life to see if it is valid.

I think all soldiers are told what to do for they are in a command stucture and have to do it. So they would be fighting for other than their own impulses and 'glory' of the unit or general.

His view on a warrior being un undisciplined fighter and unsophisticated doesn't fit any in life scenes that I can see. Quite the opposite in fact. A masai warrior for example is hardly ill disciplined and unsophisticated. Samurai warriors even had a code of honour which reinforced discipline and sophistication. Only the odd arrogant one might have glory as the goal but usually it is something that is lavished on them by others in all the history books I've read.

I could see a military man who is set on command structure and orders being obeyed like a machine having this kind of view though or even a dictator for that matter.

Regards.G
Actually I was going to bring up Masai warriors. I doubt most of them have actually spent all that much time in combat but who would argue with them being defined as warriors?

Traditionally warriors are a part of the tribe that lives slightly appart and has it's own traditions and codes of conduct and ethos and they spend their whole lives like this; they're not paid to do it, it's who they are. They're naturally inclined to that kind of way of life.
Cf to a modern soldier there are simularities but we don't expect total dedication to a martial way of life from a soldier. At most we expect him to maintain fighting skills and fitness for about twenty years. He is what he is because he's paid to be that way often he's there because of socio-economic factors.

In really serious times everyone becomes a soldier via conscription and at the end they all cease being soldiers. Ex-soldiers do not usually seek to maintain their fighting skills though. They have no use for them in civil society and they discard them and learn new skills; they blend back into society.

But for a warrior these skills are integral to who they are and they find value in them outside of their immediate application. So a warrior IMO is simply someone who practices and prepares for conflict because it is part of their identity and because they find personal utility in doing so.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:05 PM   #82
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

"But for a warrior these skills are integral to who they are and they find value in them outside of their immediate application. So a warrior IMO is simply someone who practices and prepares for conflict because it is part of their identity and because they find personal utility in doing so"

I'd go with that....
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:16 AM   #83
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Warrior mind vs fighting mind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1gu-OAgV4

G.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:41 PM   #84
jonreading
 
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

I've been trying to think of a concise way to respond to this thread. I dunno if I buy the fighter v. warrior thing. I think we are talking about the spirit to fight for something and the strategic intelligence to do so successfully.

Warriors are to my knowledge persons who engage in warfare. Soldiers (or mercenaries) are persons who engage in war for compensation or conscription. Fighters are persons who engage in combat for personal reasons. I do not think any of these classifications would or should construct a hierarchy of morality.

I would concede that it is likely the professionalism and training of these classes may stratify them. A fighter trains in a method different than a soldier. Again, I do not think that difference reflects a moralism.

The argument sounds as if we are trying to moralize one class of person over another. Throw in the fact that in our community "warrior" is much romanticized and "fighter" is a neaderthal jock and the thread smacks of an ostracization tactic for those "fighters" who will never be real martial artists...
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #85
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Warrior mind vs fighting mind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1gu-OAgV4

G.
Graham

I trust that you are not offering a loudmouth 18 year old yob as a fighter and a calmer middle aged man with a bit of Karate experience to validate you points ?

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:50 PM   #86
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Warrior mind vs fighting mind?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k1gu-OAgV4

G.
See this every weekend.... Doormen put up with much the same, We cabbies get it as well when we refuse to take them, Chavs are every where... two a penny!!
Now when the sqaddies hit town, then it gets a bit more interesting....
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:29 PM   #87
Hellis
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
See this every weekend.... Doormen put up with much the same, We cabbies get it as well when we refuse to take them, Chavs are every where... two a penny!!
Now when the sqaddies hit town, then it gets a bit more interesting....
Tony

Perhaps we should rename the fred " Frightened Mind vs Worrier Mind " .......

Henry Ellis

British Aikido History
http://british-aikido.com
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:18 PM   #88
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Graham

I trust that you are not offering a loudmouth 18 year old yob as a fighter and a calmer middle aged man with a bit of Karate experience to validate you points ?

Henry Ellis
British Aikido History
www.british-aikido.com
Henry.

If I could find one of you calmly handling some thug, which I no doubt that you have in your time, then maybe it would make more sense to you.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:25 PM   #89
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
See this every weekend.... Doormen put up with much the same, We cabbies get it as well when we refuse to take them, Chavs are every where... two a penny!!
Now when the sqaddies hit town, then it gets a bit more interesting....
No doubt it does.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:38 PM   #90
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Actually I was going to bring up Masai warriors. I doubt most of them have actually spent all that much time in combat but who would argue with them being defined as warriors?

Traditionally warriors are a part of the tribe that lives slightly appart and has it's own traditions and codes of conduct and ethos and they spend their whole lives like this; they're not paid to do it, it's who they are. They're naturally inclined to that kind of way of life.
Cf to a modern soldier there are simularities but we don't expect total dedication to a martial way of life from a soldier. At most we expect him to maintain fighting skills and fitness for about twenty years. He is what he is because he's paid to be that way often he's there because of socio-economic factors.

In really serious times everyone becomes a soldier via conscription and at the end they all cease being soldiers. Ex-soldiers do not usually seek to maintain their fighting skills though. They have no use for them in civil society and they discard them and learn new skills; they blend back into society.

But for a warrior these skills are integral to who they are and they find value in them outside of their immediate application. So a warrior IMO is simply someone who practices and prepares for conflict because it is part of their identity and because they find personal utility in doing so.
I like it. Well put.

Regards.G.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:13 PM   #91
Ketsan
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
The argument sounds as if we are trying to moralize one class of person over another. Throw in the fact that in our community "warrior" is much romanticized and "fighter" is a neaderthal jock and the thread smacks of an ostracization tactic for those "fighters" who will never be real martial artists...
I think maybe it comes down to this: in human history the soldier is the newcomer. The warrior is probably the oldest and the fighter is in the middle. The warriors of a tribe had a social function: they did the fighting. Most of the time though there was no fighting to do and so these men had to find a larger role in society to justify themselves and also simply to get on with the rest of the tribe who probably treated them like we treat soldiers today: with a certain amount of fear and suspicion. Warriors as a group had to be able to claim some kind of moral equality with if not superiority to the rest of the tribe to maintain tribal cohesion, which was in everyone's interests. There's always some social contract between warriors and the rest of the tribe.

Fighters though usually come from the civil population of the tribe and their fighting skills have always been for their own personal ends; no-one expected them to have a social function; there was no social contract and thus no requirement to demonstrate morality to the tribe because they were never a set aside, cohesive group like the warriors were.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:11 AM   #92
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

There's always some social contract between warriors and the rest of the tribe.

And we all know that is a pittance.....!!!

The way politicians treat our Warriors is nothing short of deplorable!!
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:50 AM   #93
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Henry.

If I could find one of you calmly handling some thug, which I no doubt that you have in your time, then maybe it would make more sense to you.

Regards.G.
For that matter how about one of you Graham...?

Video camera's weren't so much about in Henry's younger days, or at least I don't think they were, were they?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 03-10-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:56 AM   #94
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

"Cf to a modern soldier there are simularities but we don't expect total dedication to a martial way of life from a soldier. At most we expect him to maintain fighting skills and fitness for about twenty years. He is what he is because he's paid to be that way often he's there because of socio-economic factors.

In really serious times everyone becomes a soldier via conscription and at the end they all cease being soldiers. Ex-soldiers do not usually seek to maintain their fighting skills though. They have no use for them in civil society and they discard them and learn new skills; they blend back into society.

But for a warrior these skills are integral to who they are and they find value in them outside of their immediate application. So a warrior IMO is simply someone who practices and prepares for conflict because it is part of their identity and because they find personal utility in doing so."

It's also known that old soldiers, seamen and airmen get recalled in times of need to....
One may grow older, but one never forgets the training.....
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:14 AM   #95
SeiserL
 
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Perhaps we should rename the fred " Frightened Mind vs Worrier Mind "
And then there is the prepared mind.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:29 PM   #96
dps
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

Perhaps we should rename the fred " Frightened Mind vs Worrier Mind " .......

Henry Ellis

British Aikido History
http://british-aikido.com
Or "Mushiness, Mind of No Mind".

dps
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Old 03-10-2011, 04:19 PM   #97
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Or "Mushiness, Mind of No Mind".

dps
Coming from magic mushrooms?.... empty mind empty body?
Dead from the neck up...?

Or were you thinkin' of Mushin Mugamae.....
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:50 PM   #98
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
And then there is the prepared mind.
Indeed. Prepared for harmony. Shin shin toitsu.

G.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:20 AM   #99
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

To adhere to a path of non-resistance, non-control, non-opposition. To enter with non-disturbance. To guide with the spirit of loving protection. To bring heaven to earth. The warrior of true budo-love.

The Aikido Mind!!!

G.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:27 AM   #100
graham christian
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Re: Fighting Mind vs Warrior Mind

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Actually I was going to bring up Masai warriors. I doubt most of them have actually spent all that much time in combat but who would argue with them being defined as warriors?

Traditionally warriors are a part of the tribe that lives slightly appart and has it's own traditions and codes of conduct and ethos and they spend their whole lives like this; they're not paid to do it, it's who they are. They're naturally inclined to that kind of way of life.
Cf to a modern soldier there are simularities but we don't expect total dedication to a martial way of life from a soldier. At most we expect him to maintain fighting skills and fitness for about twenty years. He is what he is because he's paid to be that way often he's there because of socio-economic factors.

In really serious times everyone becomes a soldier via conscription and at the end they all cease being soldiers. Ex-soldiers do not usually seek to maintain their fighting skills though. They have no use for them in civil society and they discard them and learn new skills; they blend back into society.

But for a warrior these skills are integral to who they are and they find value in them outside of their immediate application. So a warrior IMO is simply someone who practices and prepares for conflict because it is part of their identity and because they find personal utility in doing so.
Thank you Alex. Another well thought out explanation.

Regards.G.
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