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Old 05-30-2002, 10:37 AM   #26
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

Firstly, I havent said that anyone was doing anything wrong anywhere! I simply laid out a platform for someone interested in ki and the martial arts to follow. If you dont wish to, so be it. How can anyone have a problem with that?
In my opinion the uke's responsibility to hold the nage in place and force the nage to use softness/ki/natural energy to escape , without atemi. That way, making it harder, the nage gets better each time.
If you don't charge to teach, that is good. That's all I was saying.
Lastly, to the gentleman worried about listening to a white belt. It is true that most of the words and concepts that I explain were NOT invented by me. I mearly mimic and add. Judge the material.

Thanks for reading!

Look for what you can USE, not what you can pick at.
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Old 05-30-2002, 10:56 AM   #27
Andy
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Lastly, to the gentleman worried about listening to a white belt. It is true that most of the words and concepts that I explain were NOT invented by me. I mearly mimic and add. Judge the material.
Right. So you're just regurgitating with nothing original to add yourself.

Yet another 5th kyu shihan.
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Old 05-30-2002, 01:01 PM   #28
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

I'm sorry, did I attack you Andy? No? Then why would you waste time attcking me? Is this not an AIKIDO website?
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Old 05-30-2002, 01:11 PM   #29
Andy
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If you don't like people disagreeing with you, why post on a discussion board? Just because it's an aikido website doesn't mean what you write won't be challenged.

As for the way I write, I enjoy atemi. Didn't O-sensei say something like "aikido is 90% atemi"?
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Old 05-30-2002, 01:14 PM   #30
chadsieger
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Discussion is fine.
Insult is not.
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Old 05-30-2002, 01:31 PM   #31
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Hello Chad,

First off let me start by saying that I am firmly rooted in the Ki camp of aikido. Second let me say that I also agree with many of the posters here when they say it's not the content of your posts that we find so disagreeable, it's the tone.

Let me put it a little differently. I recently had a new student show up to my class. He practiced the same style but at a different dojo. As everyone knows even withing styles things happen differently from dojo to dojo. Instead of hanging back and seeing how we did it and making the effort to fit in he just went about doing things his way and ended up making a small spectacle of himself. We haven't seen him again.

What I'm saying is that the forums are just like a dojo. All are welcome, but it's the new persons job to fit into the dynamic that's already there. Anyone who makes an honest effort, even if they occasionally fail, are welcomed with open arms. Anyone who doesn't make that effort will eventually begin to feel like an outsider and leave.

The prevailing feeling (as I read it) about your posts ISN'T the content. It's that you're not making the effort to follow the established etiquette, and traditions of this little online dojo.

Just my thought,
Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-30-2002, 03:11 PM   #32
chadsieger
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Ai symbol

I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
My posts are for those who are newly interested in persuing martial arts, those of physically weak stature, those with a handicap, those who are looking for more from the martial arts than pain and tired muscles, or those getting older who wish to continue the martial arts indeffinately.
If you dont agree, I'm sorry, I hope we can still be friends.

Thanks.
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Old 05-30-2002, 04:10 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Discussion is fine.
Insult is not.
So, are you telling us now that you're not 5th kyu?

Tell us. Have you trained for more than a year in aikido? How many dojo have you trained at? How many shihan in different organizations have you trained with?
Quote:
I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
Perhaps if you stopped assuming. As they say about one who assumes: ass-u-me.
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Old 05-30-2002, 04:26 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger

Mr. Hocker, the visiting sensei was interestingly enough looking for new students at his local dojo. My sensei does not charge to train (novel eh?). Needless to say, he has not come back, nor did any or our students leave. If I see him again, I'll suggest for him to train with us.

If that's true, then he's a fool and not a good example of your point. He understands very little about human nature and couldn't be much of a teacher anyway.


Craig
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Old 05-30-2002, 04:48 PM   #35
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Ki Symbol

Quote:
Originally posted by aiki_what

As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.

Good points!

you seem to be broadening your definition of atemi beyond the one your original post suggested.

maybe you need to define what you mean by atemi.

for some of us,
extending ki can become a form of atemi

Craig
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Old 05-30-2002, 04:50 PM   #36
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Chad,

When I first posted here, I was also quite opinionated (still am), quite direct (still am), and I annoyed and offended many people (still do). Actually, I was mainly having fun (still am), but it didn't come across that way. My recommendation to you is to start using those smiley faces more often - it's amazing what a smile can accomplish!

All this bickering makes me feel like I'm listening in on a bad aikido sitcom (hate sitcoms). You and many people here seem to have the answers to the aikido universe. I always question people who act like they are experts, even if they claim that they aren't. There's an expression that I like: "long of tongue, short of brain".

Sometimes I think the best advice I've seen here was from Greg (with the type-A-ikido personality), "shut up and train". Please take it the wrong way.

Jim23

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Old 05-30-2002, 04:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by aiki_what
...As to the question of atemi, isn't all techinque after the initial disruption/blending of balance/ki/flow just icing on the cake independent of whatever it is you use to take charge of the momentum?

The technique is just the stuff that happens after you have either blended and/or established an advantage.
You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.

The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative. This is a primary reason why I'm leery of looking and practicing Aikido techniques as a holistic or single experience.

I know the majority of people practice Aikido as a total experience and don't go around breaking down techniques into components. When I visit other dojos, I'm always trying to analyze the instructor's demonstration, while everyone else has already chosen a partner and done a few throws. Oh well...

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:12 PM   #38
chadsieger
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Talking

I train and will train for life.
This was my first experiment with a message board. I dont care about the culture and refinement, that I should "get used to." It seems most people didnt even read my messages. They simply found the things that they dont like so they can complain. The one guys even went so far as to call me a troll. Oh well.
Even the well thought out replies took many things for granted. Jim and Bronson think that I believe that only my way is correct and so forth. I just posted what I believe to be true. Read my posts without preconcieved notions and this should all be settled. It probably will never end so...
I will continue to post. Read. Don't read. Think anything you want of me.


Craig here is a short piece on atemis I wrote:

Every single technique in Aikido requires a spiritual atemi. Every single technique in Aikido requires a ki atemi. And yes, some of the inside moves, which are therefore more dangerous, do in fact require a physical atemi. So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
Regardless, learn Aikido, always use it in defense, and your ki will conquer alone.

Thanks for reading.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:17 PM   #39
chadsieger
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Immediate fpllow-up

When I say a spiritual Atemi, I simply mean, that he/she as the aggressor have by intiating an attack have created an "unnatural" situation. If you are also in the wrong, for whatever reason, it will be intrisically more difficult for you to conteract the disharmony. Your positive spiritual atemi is required. Should you respond with hate, the attacker now has a better reason to attack. If you maintain the spirtual calm that we all strive for, the attacker could theoretically be subdued by your lack of aggression.
A ki atemi is far more "physical." Everyone has a ki field, whether you belive in it or not. Developing ki, though no simple task, can be done by anyone with the proper relaxed mindstate. Hopefully, your ki is more developed than your attacker's, in which case techniques may not be necessary. Extend though the attacker, and strike them with your ki!
Atemi on the mat degrades the lesson. Don't muscle through techniques! Use ki for better results.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:24 PM   #40
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Question Aikido Formula

Quote:
Originally posted by Andy
...Didn't O-sensei say something like "aikido is 90% atemi"?
You are correct!
However I wouldn't take that quote too seriously. It seems that people misinterpet authorities like O Sensei. One of the main reasons is that modern people interpet things literally. Ancient people and I would put O Sensei in this category because of his psychology, were not literal but poetic.

Perhaps a commentary could be like: Aikido is the spirit of atemi. You are doing something completely. You are not passively waiting for something to happen.

After all, if you literally believed Aikido is 90% atemi, then what is the other 10%? Why didn't O Sensei mention that also?

It is not practice that makes perfect, it is correct practice that makes perfect.
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:32 PM   #41
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Hi Chad,

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
This was my first experiment with a message board. I dont care about the culture and refinement, that I should "get used to."
I don't have a section on netiquette here on AikiWeb, but, if I can say so, you (as well as everyone else here) might want to go read the one I wrote for the Aikido-L mailing list a while back:

http://www.aikido-l.org/netiquette/

In my opinion, you should care about how the community here works. If you're not here to share what you're presenting (and sharing, in my mind, involves a give and take), please take a moment to reconsider what you wish to accomplish with your posts.

I created these forums for people to share their thoughts and experiences. As such, you should expect people with dissenting thoughts and experiences to speak their mind as well. Just as you have the "right" to write and express your opinions, so do they.

In closing this part of my post, I just wanted everyone to remember the first rule of these Forums (listed right there under where you compose your post) is, "Treat your fellow AikiWeb Forums members with respect."
Quote:
So, O'Sensei was correct when saying that certain techniques do require atemi. He did not say however, to use atemis to practice Aikido. The purpose
of training with Aikido techniques is to teach you the feeling of budo. "Learn and forget." Using atemis on the mat degrade the nourishment. Similar to frying food.
I'm not saying strikes have no place in budo. Quite to contrary. However, at O'Sensei's skill level his true budo strike would look far beyond our comprehension.
To stay on topic here, I wrote the following back in 1999 about Morihei Ueshiba sensei's book, "Budo Renshu" (which loosely translates to "budo training/practice"), one of the only books that the founder wrote himself on training in aikido:

I borrowed this book (nicely bound, Japanese edition) a while back and found it quite interesting. I wish I could afford a copy. I think we had a discussion of it a while back whether O-sensei ever used atemi in his aikido; Lisa was nice enough to fax me pages from "Budo Renshu" and it's just full of things like "strike your opponent forcefully in the face with your fist" accompanied by O-sensei putting a fist in his uke's face. Neat stuff.

Hope that helps.

-- Jun

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Old 05-30-2002, 05:35 PM   #42
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
I guess the the disharmony between myself and seemingly everyone on my posts is simply due to the fact that I did not properly acclimate myself to the style of communication that already exists. Proper steps should have been taken on my part to prepare each statement I made to not offend anyone. However, I'm not trying to join a community. I figured that people interested in ki would open my posts. Instead, people who didnt believe in ki picked through them and accused me of being "preachy."
...

These lists are about communication, but the usual expectation is that it will be a two-way communication. If you look at what you have written, would you be comfortable walking into a room of strangers at an aikido dojo and start saying the same things verbatim out loud ? How many new students in the croud would you think would be immediately swayed by the statements you have made ? People interested in ki can read books or surf the web or post questions to this list (that you can happily answer) or ,heaven forbid, actually visit schools. There is a lot already out there.

Rather than immediately jump on a soap box, as you give the appearance of wanting to do here,
you would probably do more good to your cause by just hanging out, chill, and answer specific posts by beginners about ki in a thoughtful manner. Those posts would hang around and be readily available to future beginners too.
It takes patience to do that, however, and a calm mind when others disagree.

Craig
Houston Ki Society
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Old 05-30-2002, 05:49 PM   #43
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Hi Ted,

Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara

You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.
Interesting! I find myself looking through techniques (both empty-handed and weapons) thinking, "Now, how does this work?" at each step. It's kind of like looking at the notes and the spaces in between the notes if we were talking about music, I guess...
Quote:
The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative.
I think this kind of practice where each side recognizes the opportunity to take the initiative (sente) is one of the most interesting. As Chuck Clark has said before, it's a lot like playing chess...

I've noticed some people give me some quizzical looks when I "give" my balance as nage to uke, almost as though they think I'm "losing" or something. They often say, "Once again?" and offer another "try" at the technique in hand as though I didn't learn something from not getting my partner to fall down that time. I find such feedback of uke letting me know when I've given back the initiative, recognizing that I've given away the initiative, and accepting it to be very, very important, too.

-- Jun

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Old 05-31-2002, 12:21 PM   #44
aiki_what
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Craig said,

"for some of us,
extending ki can become a form of atemi "

What you define as ki I define as intent which is indeed a form of atemi. I am sure you have seen examples of shihan making subtle movements that impact uke's intent which are just as effective as atemi (so in reality the desired result is the end, you have impacted ukes' rhythm/balance/intent.)

Ted said,

"You're correct, if you look at this holistically. What I usually do is try and break down the technique into components. Therefore, if I atemi and then perform a sankyo, I have two components: Atemi and Sankyo. I examine both components to see how they work individually. Then I try and put them back together in the actual technique. So my approach is more analysis and sythesis.

The one problem I've noticed is that you can lose the lead after initially gaining it. You might initially gain the lead/blend with your partner, but during the performance of the technique, the lead can be lost through in attention or technical mistakes. If you're working with someone who can notice this, they might be able to reverse the technique and counter. Why not? After all, they now have the lead/initiative. This is a primary reason why I'm leery of looking and practicing Aikido techniques as a holistic or single experience. "

I agree to a point. We learn techniques component by component rather than holistically. However there is a danger in breaking down techniques. How we practice is how we will perform.....that is if you have learned the technique as Step 1 - Atemi, Step -2 Sankyo, there will always be an inherent pause in the way you perform the technique under pressure....giving uke an opening to re-direct/change the intent and regain the initiative. If I can direct my intent constantly throughout so that atemi (or intent to atemi) flows directly into technique you eliminate the opportunity for uke to find an opening. Actually the better way to think about it is " the atemi is the technique is the pin....all one flow.
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Old 05-31-2002, 10:10 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
...I think this kind of practice where each side recognizes the opportunity to take the initiative (sente) is one of the most interesting. As Chuck Clark has said before, it's a lot like playing chess...
-- Jun
When you analyze your technique, you'll find yourself gaining and losing the lead during the technique. However, I agree with Mark, in that the whole technique should be done in one smooth movement. A movement where you don't lose the lead at any point. I do think that you need analysis understand where you go wrong. Having a training partner who can notice your mistakes is also very helpful.

Just because you gain and lose the lead or initiative, doesn't mean performing a technique becomes like a chess game. In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win. What happens is that one side or both can steer the game into unclear positions, hoping to gain a winning advantage through sharp play.

So my interpetation of correctly done aikido technique translated into chess terms is that one side has a decisive advantage and utilizes correct procedure to a win! Of course, in practice things can turn out differently in both chess and aikido.

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Old 05-31-2002, 10:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara

In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win.
Actually, white (who moves first) in chess does have an advantage as s/he has the initiative/sente. Of course, such an advantage is sliver thin for a game such as chess.
Quote:
So my interpetation of correctly done aikido technique translated into chess terms is that one side has a decisive advantage and utilizes correct procedure to a win!
Mine would be that one side (nage) looks ahead four, five, or six "moves" ahead and makes sure that, each step of the way, the other side (uke) has no other alternative but to move in a certain manner -- kind of like getting rid of their alternatives before they really happen; that's why expert chess players can concede when there's still multiple moves they can make before getting checkmated. In aikido terms, this might mean that uke has no other movement except one -- that which nage "allows" him or her to do to keep "safe."

In aikido, though, I think this sort of look-ahead becomes a lot more intuitive than in chess (although my chess experience is pretty much nil...).

-- Jun

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Old 05-31-2002, 11:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Jim and Bronson think that I believe that only my way is correct
Funny, I don't remember saying that

That doesn't mean I didn't...I just don't remember

Bronson

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Old 06-01-2002, 06:51 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara
In chess, all games would theoretically end up in a draw, since neither side starts with an advantage that could be converted into a win.
Hmm, this is kind of an unfounded claim. Gametheorists are researching this for years already and the nature of the chessgame has not been determined yet (Meaning nobody has proven that in chess at optimal play of both parties it will always be white winning, black winning or be a draw.) So al what remains is just believe about the nature of the chess game.

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Old 06-01-2002, 09:23 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by erikknoops

Hmm, this is kind of an unfounded claim. Gametheorists are researching this for years already and the nature of the chessgame has not been determined yet (Meaning nobody has proven that in chess at optimal play of both parties it will always be white winning, black winning or be a draw.) So al what remains is just believe about the nature of the chess game.
At the start of the game, the only difference between the two sides is the fact that white moves first. This gives white an advantage of one tempi. It is generally considered that three tempi equals one pawn. A winning situation is generally considered to be up two pawns, since drawing chances are still great if there is only a one pawn advantage.

The ability to draw increases as skill gets better. There are several forcing lines in the openings that lead to draws. By forcing, I mean that if the other side deviates from recommended play the drawing player can then play for a win.

This is not a theory, this is an over-the-board principle that most tournament and match players always consider.

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Old 06-01-2002, 09:57 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by tedehara
At the start of the game, the only difference between the two sides is the fact that white moves first. This gives white an advantage of one tempi. It is generally considered that three tempi equals one pawn. A winning situation is generally considered to be up two pawns, since drawing chances are still great if there is only a one pawn advantage.

The ability to draw increases as skill gets better. There are several forcing lines in the openings that lead to draws. By forcing, I mean that if the other side deviates from recommended play the drawing player can then play for a win.

This is not a theory, this is an over-the-board principle that most tournament and match players always consider.
Still all statements over the nature and possibilties of the chess game are based on this over the board principle and other forms of common sense rules.
This does however not lift these statements above the level of unproven conjectures. Still no proof giving the nature of the chess game is known within gametheory!

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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