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Old 02-28-2011, 03:26 AM   #26
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Ive heard long distance running is good for developement of body and spirit.

But, as running 42 and something kilometers in about 2 hours to bring news is totally outdated and unnecesary in todays world, from now on a marathon race will be 4 km in lenght and should be done in about 4 hours.

This way, everybody can be a marathon runner and obtain the associated physical and spiritual benefits of long distance running.

 
Old 02-28-2011, 04:23 AM   #27
Chicko Xerri
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International Fudoshin dojo Australia.
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Do symbol Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Should a martial art be concerned with street effectiveness to be called a martial art?

How about kendo, kyudo, iaido, sumo?
Are these martial arts? I think yes.
Do these arts train to be effective on the street? I have no experience in any of these arts, but I think street effectiveness is not a major concern here.

Some martial arts are more concerned with street effectiveness. I guess kyokushin karate and systema would fall in this category.

My understanding is that aikido is somewhere in between.
It can be said Aikido is not a Martial Art. Aikido comes from Martial Arts. Aikido is Beyond Martial Arts.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 04:51 AM   #28
Flintstone
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Chicko Xerri wrote: View Post
It can be said Aikido is not a Martial Art. Aikido comes from Martial Arts. Aikido is Beyond Martial Arts.
Huh, really?
 
Old 02-28-2011, 05:15 AM   #29
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Really.

Like in Buzz Lightyear's motto "To infinity ... and beyond!"

 
Old 02-28-2011, 05:15 AM   #30
Hellis
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Huh, really?
Plus ONE MORE

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-blogs.blogspot.com/
 
Old 02-28-2011, 06:42 AM   #31
Mark Freeman
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
We have to end this trend of savage materialism and give a little bit of conscience, spirit and love back to the world. We must put down our sword and act with our heart, to let go of violence in order to track down intolerance, repress aggression, and teach compassion.
In other words, we need a supplement of soul. Extend your heart rather than your sword!
It is quite surprising that this cry from the heart was launched to the world by the founder of Aikido, the Japanese Master Morihei Ueshiba. Indeed it seems that nowadays, the practice of martial arts is quite far from canalising violence and that instead, it tends to encourage it while giving to its adepts the means to exert violence without providing them with the means to control it, unlike what was taught originally.
I clipped the above from Guillaume's excellent post titled 'The heart against the sword' worth a read for anyone interested in the wider application of Martial Arts and Aikido in particular.

I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

Aikido is a much bigger art than than Tony make's it out to be. His view is his view and he is fully entitled to it, but I personally find it tedious to read about how 'hard' is good and 'soft' is bad. It is so simplistic as to be laughable

Henry's illustration of the 'soft' senior that couldn't defend his family means nothing, it doesn't put his aikido in question, it put's his own courage in the firing line. Are we to assume that everyone who steps onto the mat of a 'hard' style is suddenly imbued with the courage to confront a gang? I think not.

Where is the tolerance and understanding and applied questioning in all of this 'bashing' of others who do not conform to one's narrow world view.

Aikido as far as I am aware from my own studies is not about beating the opponent, rather it is a means to polish oneself to become a better human being.

If you want effective self defence aikido can be effective, if you want all of what aikido has to offer, you have to see it as a bigger philisophical / spiritual endeavour.

My teacher gave us a talk this weekend about this. He was re-iterating what he has told us so many times before, the essence of aikido is 'non- resistance'. He made it very clear that this was not understood very well when the Japanese teachers introduced the concept to the UK in the mid 50's. He talked about (And Henry Ellis will confirm this, I'm sure) there were challenges made by those who questioned the validity of this new art, and there were injuries as a result of these challenges. He said they were not done on purpose, but were an inevitable result of where everyone was at at that time. He went through much harder training than Tony can imagine, and yet he does not espouse the martial approach. He has gone way beyond the narrow 'street effective' approach, to embrace something much wider, deeper and essentially more productive. His focus now is almost exclusively on mind body co-ordination, the effective use of ki and using all of this to become better human beings.

Stick with what you've got if you are happy with it, move and find something else if you are not.

There is so much to be gained by looking at the benefits of the art, there should be questions asked about the quality of what is being taught, there should be a focus on the martial and the art. There should be a focus on the qualities you need to cultivate to improve as an aikidoka

There is little to be gained from saying everyone not doing it my way is wrong ( Margaret Thatcher was a master of this approach).

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 07:30 AM   #32
Gorgeous George
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I clipped the above from Guillaume's excellent post titled 'The heart against the sword' worth a read for anyone interested in the wider application of Martial Arts and Aikido in particular.

I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

Aikido is a much bigger art than than Tony make's it out to be. His view is his view and he is fully entitled to it, but I personally find it tedious to read about how 'hard' is good and 'soft' is bad. It is so simplistic as to be laughable

Henry's illustration of the 'soft' senior that couldn't defend his family means nothing, it doesn't put his aikido in question, it put's his own courage in the firing line. Are we to assume that everyone who steps onto the mat of a 'hard' style is suddenly imbued with the courage to confront a gang? I think not.

Where is the tolerance and understanding and applied questioning in all of this 'bashing' of others who do not conform to one's narrow world view.

Aikido as far as I am aware from my own studies is not about beating the opponent, rather it is a means to polish oneself to become a better human being.

If you want effective self defence aikido can be effective, if you want all of what aikido has to offer, you have to see it as a bigger philisophical / spiritual endeavour.

My teacher gave us a talk this weekend about this. He was re-iterating what he has told us so many times before, the essence of aikido is 'non- resistance'. He made it very clear that this was not understood very well when the Japanese teachers introduced the concept to the UK in the mid 50's. He talked about (And Henry Ellis will confirm this, I'm sure) there were challenges made by those who questioned the validity of this new art, and there were injuries as a result of these challenges. He said they were not done on purpose, but were an inevitable result of where everyone was at at that time. He went through much harder training than Tony can imagine, and yet he does not espouse the martial approach. He has gone way beyond the narrow 'street effective' approach, to embrace something much wider, deeper and essentially more productive. His focus now is almost exclusively on mind body co-ordination, the effective use of ki and using all of this to become better human beings.

Stick with what you've got if you are happy with it, move and find something else if you are not.

There is so much to be gained by looking at the benefits of the art, there should be questions asked about the quality of what is being taught, there should be a focus on the martial and the art. There should be a focus on the qualities you need to cultivate to improve as an aikidoka

There is little to be gained from saying everyone not doing it my way is wrong ( Margaret Thatcher was a master of this approach).

regards

Mark
Very good, incisive, critical writing.
Thank you.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 07:33 AM   #33
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I clipped the above from Guillaume's excellent post titled 'The heart against the sword' worth a read for anyone interested in the wider application of Martial Arts and Aikido in particular.

I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

Aikido is a much bigger art than than Tony make's it out to be. His view is his view and he is fully entitled to it, but I personally find it tedious to read about how 'hard' is good and 'soft' is bad. It is so simplistic as to be laughable

Henry's illustration of the 'soft' senior that couldn't defend his family means nothing, it doesn't put his aikido in question, it put's his own courage in the firing line. Are we to assume that everyone who steps onto the mat of a 'hard' style is suddenly imbued with the courage to confront a gang? I think not.

Where is the tolerance and understanding and applied questioning in all of this 'bashing' of others who do not conform to one's narrow world view.

Aikido as far as I am aware from my own studies is not about beating the opponent, rather it is a means to polish oneself to become a better human being.

If you want effective self defence aikido can be effective, if you want all of what aikido has to offer, you have to see it as a bigger philisophical / spiritual endeavour.

My teacher gave us a talk this weekend about this. He was re-iterating what he has told us so many times before, the essence of aikido is 'non- resistance'. He made it very clear that this was not understood very well when the Japanese teachers introduced the concept to the UK in the mid 50's. He talked about (And Henry Ellis will confirm this, I'm sure) there were challenges made by those who questioned the validity of this new art, and there were injuries as a result of these challenges. He said they were not done on purpose, but were an inevitable result of where everyone was at at that time. He went through much harder training than Tony can imagine, and yet he does not espouse the martial approach. He has gone way beyond the narrow 'street effective' approach, to embrace something much wider, deeper and essentially more productive. His focus now is almost exclusively on mind body co-ordination, the effective use of ki and using all of this to become better human beings.

Stick with what you've got if you are happy with it, move and find something else if you are not.

There is so much to be gained by looking at the benefits of the art, there should be questions asked about the quality of what is being taught, there should be a focus on the martial and the art. There should be a focus on the qualities you need to cultivate to improve as an aikidoka

There is little to be gained from saying everyone not doing it my way is wrong ( Margaret Thatcher was a master of this approach).

regards

Mark
Well Mark, all very nice philosophy and in some ways I would agree with some points from a philosophical point of view, the only trouble is by the time you have said all that to somebody who is only interested in owning you, you would look a sorry mess....
I'm sure that mind and body coordination is a fine thing to achieve, which incidentally can be achieved by any physical pursuit of any worth. "Ki" aikido doesn't have the rights to that as far as I'm aware so we can assume that aikido is not a martial art anymore? By your standards it is a spiritual quest. If that is the case why not become a spiritualist as oppose to a martial artist....?
Lets face it, there are many of them making a fast buck at the gullibility of others........

Regards

Tony
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:09 AM   #34
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Ive heard long distance running is good for developement of body and spirit.

But, as running 42 and something kilometers in about 2 hours to bring news is totally outdated and unnecesary in todays world, from now on a marathon race will be 4 km in lenght and should be done in about 4 hours.

This way, everybody can be a marathon runner and obtain the associated physical and spiritual benefits of long distance running.
Are people imprisoned for running long distances where you live?
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:17 AM   #35
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 317
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

Aikido is a much bigger art than than Tony make's it out to be. His view is his view and he is fully entitled to it, but I personally find it tedious to read about how 'hard' is good and 'soft' is bad. It is so simplistic as to be laughable

Henry's illustration of the 'soft' senior that couldn't defend his family means nothing, it doesn't put his aikido in question, it put's his own courage in the firing line. Are we to assume that everyone who steps onto the mat of a 'hard' style is suddenly imbued with the courage to confront a gang? I think not.

Where is the tolerance and understanding and applied questioning in all of this 'bashing' of others who do not conform to one's narrow world view.

Aikido as far as I am aware from my own studies is not about beating the opponent, rather it is a means to polish oneself to become a better human being.

If you want effective self defence aikido can be effective, if you want all of what aikido has to offer, you have to see it as a bigger philisophical / spiritual endeavour.

My teacher gave us a talk this weekend about this. He was re-iterating what he has told us so many times before, the essence of aikido is 'non- resistance'. He made it very clear that this was not understood very well when the Japanese teachers introduced the concept to the UK in the mid 50's. He talked about (And Henry Ellis will confirm this, I'm sure) there were challenges made by those who questioned the validity of this new art, and there were injuries as a result of these challenges. He said they were not done on purpose, but were an inevitable result of where everyone was at at that time. He went through much harder training than Tony can imagine, and yet he does not espouse the martial approach. He has gone way beyond the narrow 'street effective' approach, to embrace something much wider, deeper and essentially more productive. His focus now is almost exclusively on mind body co-ordination, the effective use of ki and using all of this to become better human beings.

Stick with what you've got if you are happy with it, move and find something else if you are not.

There is so much to be gained by looking at the benefits of the art, there should be questions asked about the quality of what is being taught, there should be a focus on the martial and the art. There should be a focus on the qualities you need to cultivate to improve as an aikidoka

There is little to be gained from saying everyone not doing it my way is wrong ( Margaret Thatcher was a master of this approach).

regards

Mark
Great post.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:17 AM   #36
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

The ones who don't run long and fast enough are the ones who get caught and imprisoned.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:30 AM   #37
Mark Freeman
Dojo: Dartington
Location: Devon
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Well Mark, all very nice philosophy and in some ways I would agree with some points from a philosophical point of view, the only trouble is by the time you have said all that to somebody who is only interested in owning you, you would look a sorry mess....
I'm sure that mind and body coordination is a fine thing to achieve, which incidentally can be achieved by any physical pursuit of any worth. "Ki" aikido doesn't have the rights to that as far as I'm aware so we can assume that aikido is not a martial art anymore? By your standards it is a spiritual quest. If that is the case why not become a spiritualist as oppose to a martial artist....?Lets face it, there are many of them making a fast buck at the gullibility of others........

Regards

Tony
Tony,

You know nothing about me or my martial abilities, why would I want to become a spiritualist, what an absurd suggestion. What's mutually exclusive about being a martial artist and being a spiritual being. O Sensei and many others would be turning in their collective graves.

I have only faced two serious situations where I could have come to harm, both with gangs of youths of around 5 or 6 in each case. Both situations I was promised I was either going to get my f**cking head kicked in or in the other case get f**cking killed. In both cased I managed to get out of the situation by negotiating eyeball to eyeball with the ringleader in each case. No face lost no blood spilt, Ideal aikido as far as I am concerned.

From your answer to my post I see that the case I put is correct.

I didn't say that Ki Aikido had the rights to anything, your prejudice not mine.

The sort of mind-body co-ordination I am refering to is not achievable by any physical pursuit, it is specific and quantifyable.

Aikido is greater than your perception of it Tony, be happy with the fact that you are limited by your own imagination.

I'll bow out of this one as there is nothing to be gained here.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:34 AM   #38
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

my reality keeps changing and my martial arts have a hard time keeping up. after watching Inception, i am not sure if this is real or not.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 08:44 AM   #39
Alex Megann
Dojo: Southampton Aikikai
Location: Southampton
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 375
United Kingdom
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I clipped the above from Guillaume's excellent post titled 'The heart against the sword' worth a read for anyone interested in the wider application of Martial Arts and Aikido in particular.

I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

(rest of post clipped)

regards

Mark
Mark -- excellent post!

My own teacher was a student of Gozo Shioda in the late fifties and early sixties, so knows intimately what hard training is. He is still fond of recalling confrontations from his earlier life (many of them start along the lines of "I had a fight with policeman in Nepal..."). I suspect that he is still perfectly capable of looking after himself, even though he is in his seventies now.

Like your teacher, though, these days he concentrates on body movement and connection with the partner. His classes can be very intense and exhausting, but he is much more likely to tell us that our techniques aren't working because we are using too much strength, than to criticise us for not being "martial enough".

I would love to see someone tell him to his face that his aikido has lost its way.

Alex
 
Old 02-28-2011, 09:07 AM   #40
lbb
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
The ones who don't run long and fast enough are the ones who get caught and imprisoned.
Do I really need to explain the ways that your cut-down marathon analogy fails? Running long distances isn't illegal; you can run all day and no one cares. Fighting is illegal except in a few, very circumscribed circumstances.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 09:39 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
Tony,

You know nothing about me or my martial abilities, why would I want to become a spiritualist, what an absurd suggestion. What's mutually exclusive about being a martial artist and being a spiritual being. O Sensei and many others would be turning in their collective graves.

I have only faced two serious situations where I could have come to harm, both with gangs of youths of around 5 or 6 in each case. Both situations I was promised I was either going to get my f**cking head kicked in or in the other case get f**cking killed. In both cased I managed to get out of the situation by negotiating eyeball to eyeball with the ringleader in each case. No face lost no blood spilt, Ideal aikido as far as I am concerned.

From your answer to my post I see that the case I put is correct.

I didn't say that Ki Aikido had the rights to anything, your prejudice not mine.

The sort of mind-body co-ordination I am refering to is not achievable by any physical pursuit, it is specific and quantifyable.

Aikido is greater than your perception of it Tony, be happy with the fact that you are limited by your own imagination.

I'll bow out of this one as there is nothing to be gained here.

regards,

Mark
Yes Mark, been there done it, but unfortunately it doesn't always work in all cases, I suspect you had the bottle and got lucky like I did on more than a couple of occasions, but negotiation doesn't always work..... Believe me it's not imagination!!
So gymnastics is not quantifiable? I would suggest that is the ultimate in mind body control and coordination, in my eyes it is light years ahead of ki aikido.....

Regards

Tony

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 02-28-2011 at 09:42 AM.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 09:53 AM   #42
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do I really need to explain the ways that your cut-down marathon analogy fails? Running long distances isn't illegal; you can run all day and no one cares. Fighting is illegal except in a few, very circumscribed circumstances.
Fighting?

This is not about fighting, This is about forging body, mind and spirit so you can choose what to do when facing unjust violence.

I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.
The strength to kill is not essential for self-defence; one ought to have the strength to die. When a man is fully ready to die, he will not even desire to offer violence. Indeed, I may put it down as a self-evident proposition that the desire to kill is in inverse proportion to the desire to die. And history is replete with instances of men who, by dying with courage and compassion on their lips, converted the hearts of their violent opponents.
Nonviolence cannot be taught to a person who fears to die and has no power of resistance. A helpless mouse is not nonviolent because he is always eaten by pussy. He would gladly eat the murderess if he could, but he ever tries to flee from her. We do not call him a coward, because he is made by nature to behave no better than he does.
But a man who, when faced by danger, behaves like a mouse, is rightly called a coward. He harbors violence and hatred in his heart and would kill his enemy if he could without hurting himself. He is a stranger to nonviolence. All sermonizing on it will be lost on him. Bravery is foreign to his nature. Before he can understand nonviolence, he has to be taught to stand his ground and even suffer death, in the attempt to defend himself against the aggressor who bids fair to overwhelm him. To do otherwise would be to confirm his cowardice and take him further away from nonviolence.
Whilst I may not actually help anyone to retaliate, I must not let a coward seek shelter behind nonviolence so-called. Not knowing the stuff of which nonviolence is made, many have honestly believed that running away from danger every time was a virtue compared to offering resistance, especially when it was fraught with danger to one's life. As a teacher of nonviolence I must, so far as it is possible for me, guard against such an unmanly belief.
Self-defence....is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation.
Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.


Who am I quoting here?

A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace. He must be able to make a choice. He must have the genuine ability to destroy his enemy and then choose not to. I have heard this excuse made. “I choose to be a pacifist before learning techniques so I do not need to learn the power of destruction.” This shows no comprehension of the mind of the true warrior. This is just a rationalization to cover the fear of injury or hard training. The true warrior who chooses to be a pacifist is willing to stand and die for his principles. People claiming to be pacifists who rationalize to avoid hard training or injury will flee instead of standing and dying for principle. They are just cowards. Only a warrior who has tempered his spirit in conflict and who has confronted himself and his greatest fears can in my opinion make the choice to be a true pacifist

And here?

If your training doesn't give you the virtue of courage and the skills to stand in the face of violence all your "philosophical enlightnement" deserves, IMO, is a big woe to you, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 10:03 AM   #43
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Alex Megann wrote: View Post
Mark -- excellent post!

My own teacher was a student of Gozo Shioda in the late fifties and early sixties, so knows intimately what hard training is. He is still fond of recalling confrontations from his earlier life (many of them start along the lines of "I had a fight with policeman in Nepal..."). I suspect that he is still perfectly capable of looking after himself, even though he is in his seventies now.

Like your teacher, though, these days he concentrates on body movement and connection with the partner. His classes can be very intense and exhausting, but he is much more likely to tell us that our techniques aren't working because we are using too much strength, than to criticise us for not being "martial enough".

I would love to see someone tell him to his face that his aikido has lost its way.

Alex
Alex,
Of course we will all do that when we get older, part of my thinking is, should young strapping people be doing hard or soft? My experience is you cannot achieve one without the other. The hard comes before the soft. The problem today is those who wish to get straight to or achieve the soft by avoiding the hard, and then find out they cannot do it without a colluding partner.......? It's common sense that one should temper their practice as one ages, but when young should do hard practice as seen in Yoshinkan, Iwama ryu or against resisting partners as practised in Shodokan. It's the only rational way one can truly test their progress.... Anything else is delusion.....
 
Old 02-28-2011, 10:04 AM   #44
lbb
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Whatever. I'm done discussing anything with people who willfully refuse to get a simple point. Try switching to decaf.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 10:21 AM   #45
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Fighting?

This is not about fighting, This is about forging body, mind and spirit so you can choose what to do when facing unjust violence.

I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by non-violently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully.
The strength to kill is not essential for self-defence; one ought to have the strength to die. When a man is fully ready to die, he will not even desire to offer violence. Indeed, I may put it down as a self-evident proposition that the desire to kill is in inverse proportion to the desire to die. And history is replete with instances of men who, by dying with courage and compassion on their lips, converted the hearts of their violent opponents.
Nonviolence cannot be taught to a person who fears to die and has no power of resistance. A helpless mouse is not nonviolent because he is always eaten by pussy. He would gladly eat the murderess if he could, but he ever tries to flee from her. We do not call him a coward, because he is made by nature to behave no better than he does.
But a man who, when faced by danger, behaves like a mouse, is rightly called a coward. He harbors violence and hatred in his heart and would kill his enemy if he could without hurting himself. He is a stranger to nonviolence. All sermonizing on it will be lost on him. Bravery is foreign to his nature. Before he can understand nonviolence, he has to be taught to stand his ground and even suffer death, in the attempt to defend himself against the aggressor who bids fair to overwhelm him. To do otherwise would be to confirm his cowardice and take him further away from nonviolence.
Whilst I may not actually help anyone to retaliate, I must not let a coward seek shelter behind nonviolence so-called. Not knowing the stuff of which nonviolence is made, many have honestly believed that running away from danger every time was a virtue compared to offering resistance, especially when it was fraught with danger to one's life. As a teacher of nonviolence I must, so far as it is possible for me, guard against such an unmanly belief.
Self-defence....is the only honourable course where there is unreadiness for self-immolation.
Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenceless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. The latter befits neither man nor woman. Under violence, there are many stages and varieties of bravery. Every man must judge this for himself. No other person can or has the right.


Who am I quoting here?

A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence. He chooses peace. He must be able to make a choice. He must have the genuine ability to destroy his enemy and then choose not to. I have heard this excuse made. "I choose to be a pacifist before learning techniques so I do not need to learn the power of destruction." This shows no comprehension of the mind of the true warrior. This is just a rationalization to cover the fear of injury or hard training. The true warrior who chooses to be a pacifist is willing to stand and die for his principles. People claiming to be pacifists who rationalize to avoid hard training or injury will flee instead of standing and dying for principle. They are just cowards. Only a warrior who has tempered his spirit in conflict and who has confronted himself and his greatest fears can in my opinion make the choice to be a true pacifist

And here?

If your training doesn't give you the virtue of courage and the skills to stand in the face of violence all your "philosophical enlightnement" deserves, IMO, is a big woe to you, hypocrites! for you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
I'll repeat what Geoff Thompson said, "I'm no fighter, but without being boastful, I can defend myself if I have to"
I tend to think myself in the same vain, as I'm sure many do in aikido or any martial art worth it's salt....
Do I have fear? Yes of course if the odds are against me! Who wouldn't be? One learns to channel that fear and make use of it..... Win or lose.....
 
Old 02-28-2011, 10:57 AM   #46
C. David Henderson
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Fighting?

Who am I quoting here?
Ghandi?

David Henderson
 
Old 02-28-2011, 11:26 AM   #47
Jonathan
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
So every doorman is violent ? Every copper on the beat is violent? Every cabbie out risking his bacon on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday night is violent?
Did I say that? Violence hangs over people in these professions but that doesn't necessarily make them violent..or does it? I'm pretty sure the nun in her quiet, untroubled monastery is far less violent than the cabbie "risking his bacon" on a regular basis. The office worker who spends his day in front of a computer finds far less cause to be violent than your average on-the-beat police officer. I suspect most librarians aren't having to regularly manhandle some obnoxious drunk like your typical doorman must do.

Quote:
But we are realistic about our situations and through are training stay aware which does prevent many things from escalating.....
Your assertion that all of us are just lucky to have escaped violence and are working against the odds in remaining so suggests that, while you may be realistic about your situation, you aren't being entirely realistic about everyone else's.

Quote:
I suggest you read the post again.... if you are happy with what you do then who am I to suggest to you to do otherwise....?
Who indeed? Why, then, bother posting your views if not to persuade others of the correctness of your perspective and the faultiness of theirs?

Quote:
If you prefer your type of training don't expect it to defend you if the need really arises.
I'm pretty sure you have no actual idea about how I have or do train. So I'll just ignore this comment.

Quote:
You would be surprised how people can change from being "friendly" to a deranged nut case in just a few seconds....
Try growing up with a bi-polar parent like I did.

Quote:
You may never have been accosted in your life like this, so until you do you will never know will you.....?
Then again, I may have. You don't know, do you?

Quote:
You obviously live a very comfortable life where the risk is very low,
Uh, sort of...

Quote:
So yes, my occupation is subject to violence and abuse as all those who work in A&E on those nights, and have to deal with all the blood, crap and drunkenness.....
There are other jobs one can do...

Quote:
Society doesn't like to look at it's problems but prefers to just sweep it under the carpet as it's an embarrassment to a modern society as a whole, but I see it every weekend......
Is someone forcing you to get up close and personal with the "blood, crap and drunkenness"?

Quote:
That is why my aikido is like it is. It doesn't make me a violent person, if anything it has the opposite effect.....
Glad to hear it! And it sounds to me like you're agreeing with me: Your proximity to violence influences your approach to your Aikido. But your experience with violence isn't everyone else's. You shouldn't, then, expect us all to be as preoccupied as you seem to be with "making it real." There are other aspects of Aikido to be explored, and mastered, and valued perhaps as much or more than how closely one's training mimics a real fight. Just a thought.

Regards,

Jon.

"Iron sharpens iron; so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."
 
Old 02-28-2011, 11:38 AM   #48
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
Ghandi?
Yes.
 
Old 02-28-2011, 11:47 AM   #49
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Mark Freeman wrote: View Post
I clipped the above from Guillaume's excellent post titled 'The heart against the sword' worth a read for anyone interested in the wider application of Martial Arts and Aikido in particular.

I have reads through Tony's post's and see that a month of being asked not to post has done little to change anything. His views are the same and will always remain so. Aikido is in trouble because it is not practiced in a way that he 'knows' is the only valid way. IP/IS discussion is irrelevant because he already 'knows' all about what is needed. Anyone who practices 'soft' aikido needs to be pitied as thay are deluded fools. And insulting other people's approach to aikido and their world view, is fine because they don't deserve respect because they are so deluded. Even O Sensei doesn't escape the criticism

Aikido is a much bigger art than than Tony make's it out to be. His view is his view and he is fully entitled to it, but I personally find it tedious to read about how 'hard' is good and 'soft' is bad. It is so simplistic as to be laughable

Henry's illustration of the 'soft' senior that couldn't defend his family means nothing, it doesn't put his aikido in question, it put's his own courage in the firing line. Are we to assume that everyone who steps onto the mat of a 'hard' style is suddenly imbued with the courage to confront a gang? I think not.

Where is the tolerance and understanding and applied questioning in all of this 'bashing' of others who do not conform to one's narrow world view.

Aikido as far as I am aware from my own studies is not about beating the opponent, rather it is a means to polish oneself to become a better human being.

If you want effective self defence aikido can be effective, if you want all of what aikido has to offer, you have to see it as a bigger philisophical / spiritual endeavour.

My teacher gave us a talk this weekend about this. He was re-iterating what he has told us so many times before, the essence of aikido is 'non- resistance'. He made it very clear that this was not understood very well when the Japanese teachers introduced the concept to the UK in the mid 50's. He talked about (And Henry Ellis will confirm this, I'm sure) there were challenges made by those who questioned the validity of this new art, and there were injuries as a result of these challenges. He said they were not done on purpose, but were an inevitable result of where everyone was at at that time. He went through much harder training than Tony can imagine, and yet he does not espouse the martial approach. He has gone way beyond the narrow 'street effective' approach, to embrace something much wider, deeper and essentially more productive. His focus now is almost exclusively on mind body co-ordination, the effective use of ki and using all of this to become better human beings.

Stick with what you've got if you are happy with it, move and find something else if you are not.

There is so much to be gained by looking at the benefits of the art, there should be questions asked about the quality of what is being taught, there should be a focus on the martial and the art. There should be a focus on the qualities you need to cultivate to improve as an aikidoka

There is little to be gained from saying everyone not doing it my way is wrong ( Margaret Thatcher was a master of this approach).

regards

Mark
Great and relevant post, Thanks Mark
 
Old 02-28-2011, 12:05 PM   #50
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Is your Aikido as a Martial Art up to Reality?

Quote:
Jonathan Hay wrote: View Post
Did I say that? Violence hangs over people in these professions but that doesn't necessarily make them violent..or does it? I'm pretty sure the nun in her quiet, untroubled monastery is far less violent than the cabbie "risking his bacon" on a regular basis. The office worker who spends his day in front of a computer finds far less cause to be violent than your average on-the-beat police officer. I suspect most librarians aren't having to regularly manhandle some obnoxious drunk like your typical doorman must do.

Your assertion that all of us are just lucky to have escaped violence and are working against the odds in remaining so suggests that, while you may be realistic about your situation, you aren't being entirely realistic about everyone else's.

Who indeed? Why, then, bother posting your views if not to persuade others of the correctness of your perspective and the faultiness of theirs?

I'm pretty sure you have no actual idea about how I have or do train. So I'll just ignore this comment.

Try growing up with a bi-polar parent like I did.

Then again, I may have. You don't know, do you?

Uh, sort of...

There are other jobs one can do...

Is someone forcing you to get up close and personal with the "blood, crap and drunkenness"?

Glad to hear it! And it sounds to me like you're agreeing with me: Your proximity to violence influences your approach to your Aikido. But your experience with violence isn't everyone else's. You shouldn't, then, expect us all to be as preoccupied as you seem to be with "making it real." There are other aspects of Aikido to be explored, and mastered, and valued perhaps as much or more than how closely one's training mimics a real fight. Just a thought.

Regards,

Jon.
Jonathan you suggested that maybe I was/is possibly violent? Read your own post..... not by choice no.....

A& E is a vocation by those that work in these conditions.... Getting another job is not an option and you would be glad of their services if the worst was to happen to you..... which it won't will it?

And your ability? I kind of doubt it....... by your answer

Sorry about your bi polar parent..... Life's a bitch eh? Some don't even have parents!!

As for getting up close to blood and drunkenness you won't have to put up with that either because there are those who do to keep you comfortable and away from it..... your taxes or medical insurance take care of that.....Oh next time you catch a cab which you most likely don't use because it sounds like you live in a fairly effluent society, make sure you tip the cabbie, or he'll think you a right tight arse.....!!

Take Care

Tony
 

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