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Old 05-08-2011, 10:16 AM   #51
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Mark, Graham and other users,

It has not been my intent to cause offence with my posts.

I want to follow the way of the founder and find Aikido, and this is what i have been discussing.

What is generally being practiced today are the teachings of the first Doshu. It is well documented that he stated he changed the teachings of his father.

If this is the case, how can we call what we do Aikido if what O'Sensei taught has changed?

To me this is the biggest issue in the Aikido World today.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:02 AM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark, Graham and other users,

It has not been my intent to cause offence with my posts.
No problem.

Quote:
I want to follow the way of the founder and find Aikido, and this is what i have been discussing
That's fine.

Quote:
What is generally being practiced today are the teachings of the first Doshu. It is well documented that he stated he changed the teachings of his father.
He inherited the art. Changing it, whatever his motivations and purposes were, was his prerrogative. Deal with it.

Quote:
If this is the case, how can we call what we do Aikido if what O'Sensei taught has changed?
Considering the name of Aikido was intended as a generic name for various styles, some of them non derived from Ueshiba-ha Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, I don't see the problem.

Quote:
To me this is the biggest issue in the Aikido World today.
However, the biggest issue for me is the crazyness of its practitioners.

Cheers
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:20 AM   #53
graham christian
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Mark, Graham and other users,

It has not been my intent to cause offence with my posts.

I want to follow the way of the founder and find Aikido, and this is what i have been discussing.

What is generally being practiced today are the teachings of the first Doshu. It is well documented that he stated he changed the teachings of his father.

If this is the case, how can we call what we do Aikido if what O'Sensei taught has changed?

To me this is the biggest issue in the Aikido World today.
Lee.
I doubt you have offended anyone here except in your own mind. I personally am not offended only amused.

I don't see you as someone to sit down and discuss things with unfortunately but rather see you as someone on a podium lecturing.

When it comes to lecturing or speaking about the Aikido of the founder I prefer someone like Stanley Pranin who presents in a more interesting balanced manner.

So forgive me if I choose to be part of your Audience and sit in silence watching your performance.

Good luck.G.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:20 AM   #54
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Hey what a nice surprise to see this thread evolved so long overnight :-)

Well, be indulgent with my English, I'm no native speaker.

I personally find myself more comfortable with Graham's and Mark's outlook - however there is a level where some degree of synthesis, perhaps, may be attained.

Lee says he is certain that his perspective is the right one because so (quoting) "has been told".

The fact is: what we are told is immaterial, because what matters is not what we have been told, but what we make of it. Christ can tell us the most beautiful parable, and yet we may understand it not.

So, I guess, this may somewhat apply to Lee's positions too - he is saying things that don't make much sense to some of us (at least, not when stated in that fashion): however, also in this case what he is telling can find its value by what we make of it.

As (quoting myself, lol) I suggested, even a 6th kyu can be a teacher - every opponent that poses a challenge to you, is a teacher too - in disguide, like David in the Psalms: "in hiding".

This means that this notorious "one Aikido" is not something that any real person embodies, but the overall sum of the human potential all of us have and may exhibit.
When a 6th kyu does something stupid, and yet the fact he does it implies I find applying my technique very difficult - in that INSTANT that 6th kyu is THE SENSEI. The - there is but ONE sensei.
It's not the 6th kyu, that's the spiritual Sensei that in disguise arrived, and is teaching you. I have never read of any god, no matter what religion, expressing itself in clear words like humans do, or appear without being enshrouded by a cover-up (be it a cloud or whatever, which includes persons - in the Bible some passer-bys are considered as messengers, as Angels, for the time being).

We speculate about enlightenment - but an enlightened person is a rare find: I doubt we can find one out of ten millions.

If we are speaking of illumination in the Buddhist sense, that level of self-awareness after which everything becomes clear also without any study because the ultimate root whence everything sprouts has been attained and firmly grasped, is a phenomenon that has been reported in Buddhist literature as being so impressive and so shocking an experience, that whoever had it will never be the same again, will never think the same way again, and there is no way s/he can doubt of it. It's like an explosion in your mind, like a sudden realaignment (apparently) of your whole neural networks in one instant - something you can hardly mistake or avoid noticing. It's like a blast.

has Lee had this experience? My impression is: no he didn't.
However, so didn't I.

yet I reclaim my right to pursue my own path to that "one Aikido", and the right of everyone else to follow their own customized and personal path.
Paths may lead you in the wrong way: you accept the risk.
Paths may see you never arrive at the final destination: you accept the risk.

Because if enlightement could be something that would be accrued or earned by merely following a set of instructions, a digest of precepts, we would all be enlightened by merely following them - and at a very cheap price and, consequently, with very trivial merit.

Instead, ti's not like that. It's not a rational thing that you can infallibly reach following a catechism.

You are in a sea of uncertainty, where the only thing that matters is your personal commitment - as if it were a fight to the last blood.

At that point, it is not going to be this or that instruction what may yield one day illumination. The cumulative experience, practice, meditation, fighting, one day may generate enough pressure that one morning (as we read in COUNTLESS ZEN stories) you reach the Critical Mass and pow! one trivial sentence, and you experience that devastating experience that is illumination.

For Zen Buddhism, everything can be conducive to illumination - from archery to serving tea.

You won't get illuminated one day by reciting mantras, or by following this or that set of Commandments.

You will be illuminated one day, as you casually bend down to tie your shoe.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-08-2011 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:23 AM   #55
graham christian
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Graham this is from the Tengugeijutsuron in Zen and the Ways by Trevor Leggett. Your interesting post reminded me of it.
Niall.
Thanks very much. I had never read this. I love it.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:35 AM   #56
Chris Li
 
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Nial,

It was Arikawa who said there is only one Aikido, not me. I just quoted him.

There are many types of training but only one Aikido.
Lee, Niall's been nice about it, but do you really want to quote Arikawa to him?

Best,

Chris

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Old 05-08-2011, 11:38 AM   #57
graham christian
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Alberto.
That's quite a post. I not only agree with what you say there but commend you on your presentation. Lovely style of writing. Great ending.

Thanks.G.
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Old 05-08-2011, 11:50 AM   #58
Keith Larman
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Lee, Niall's been nice about it, but do you really want to quote Arikawa to him?

Best,

Chris
Yeah, that was quite, um, interesting... Gave me a chuckle. Context, context, context...

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Old 05-08-2011, 12:20 PM   #59
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Keith,

I have no idea about Niall or his training.

From you statement i could infer that Niall is a student of Arikawas. If so, then surely Niall should be able to offer more on this subject than i.

The comment Arikawa was made was in a discussion with Pierre Chassang.
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Old 05-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #60
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Niall.
Thanks very much. I had never read this. I love it.

Regards.G.
Be aware that Chozan was not exactly fond of Zen Buddhism, and mostly an armchair strategist than skilled budo practitioner. So, if you don't mind, take Chozan advice about proper budo instruction with a grain of salt.

Cheers.
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Old 05-08-2011, 03:47 PM   #61
graham christian
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Be aware that Chozan was not exactly fond of Zen Buddhism, and mostly an armchair strategist than skilled budo practitioner. So, if you don't mind, take Chozan advice about proper budo instruction with a grain of salt.

Cheers.
Demetrio.
Thanks for the advice for I am not aware of the ins and outs of Chozan.
However, whatever his awareness or reality of budo was this passage definitely resonates with me. I think Niall has a handle on my view of Aikido,(not saying that he agrees with it or otherwise) and thus it was very perceptive of him to see what I might like.

I too practice in learning said aspects relating to the sword, jo, etc. I think that passage is a good explanation.

Regards.G.
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:22 PM   #62
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

I'm the only one allowed to lecture here, so lets get that clear right now!!
Me thinks as I've always done since starting martial arts back in 1967 with judo bla bla bla etc etc, that there seems to be a lot of writing, pontificating and whining with very little doing where actual practice is concerned, its where its really at..... repetition till exhaustion, rest and then do a lot more, hundred if not thousands of times till it becomes almost instinctive, That is the real practice, sweat, pain, a little blood now and again, it is expected if you really want to be "earth shakers" especially the youngsters meaning anyone who doesn't have excuses....

People ask me if there is strength in aikido, I say yes there is, enough to lift 25lbs, and the ability to use it with subtlety, that is where the training comes in. Lee I haven't got a clue what you are on about so excuse my igorance....
All I know is practice, practice, practice that gets you there, it's the only way. I get the impression you read too many books instead of worrying about what it is you actually do.... What are you trying to do? Become an 'O' Sensei clone?
I know I don't, even though I greatly admire what he did and passed onto us via his deshi and so forth. I personally believe it was the prewar deshi that really got the goods, Tohei just cottoned on and made use of it, maybe he was just a bit more clever than the rest... Happy days!!

Anyways guys I'm off for a month..... happy arguing.....

Ceeeeeriste!! I thought I was opinionated, Lee.... you have outdone me ......good luck!!
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:37 PM   #63
Hellis
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I'm the only one allowed to lecture here, so lets get that clear right now!!
Me thinks as I've always done since starting martial arts back in 1967 with judo bla bla bla etc etc, that there seems to be a lot of writing, pontificating and whining with very little doing where actual practice is concerned, its where its really at..... repetition till exhaustion, rest and then do a lot more, hundred if not thousands of times till it becomes almost instinctive, That is the real practice, sweat, pain, a little blood now and again, it is expected if you really want to be "earth shakers" especially the youngsters meaning anyone who doesn't have excuses....

People ask me if there is strength in aikido, I say yes there is, enough to lift 25lbs, and the ability to use it with subtlety, that is where the training comes in. Lee I haven't got a clue what you are on about so excuse my igorance....
All I know is practice, practice, practice that gets you there, it's the only way. I get the impression you read too many books instead of worrying about what it is you actually do.... What are you trying to do? Become an 'O' Sensei clone?
I know I don't, even though I greatly admire what he did and passed onto us via his deshi and so forth. I personally believe it was the prewar deshi that really got the goods, Tohei just cottoned on and made use of it, maybe he was just a bit more clever than the rest... Happy days!!

Anyways guys I'm off for a month..... happy arguing.....

Ceeeeeriste!! I thought I was opinionated, Lee.... you have outdone me ......good luck!!
Tony

Thanks for those words of wisdom.
Bring me back a stick of rock.

Henry Ellis
Aikido in MMA
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:53 PM   #64
Diana Frese
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Tony, you're going on vacation? Henry's (please excuse the informality) request doesn't seem a clear clue as to where?
(a stick of rock?)
Chuck has just agreed we should practice every day, so thanks for keeping track of us until we got to this point. We'll do our best while you're away, and hope you approve of our training ....
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Old 05-08-2011, 04:56 PM   #65
Alberto_Italiano
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
repetition till exhaustion, rest and then do a lot more, hundred if not thousands of times till it becomes almost instinctive, That is the real practice, sweat, pain, a little blood now and again

All I know is practice, practice, practice that gets you there
Yes!

And though I certainly would neve advocate that whatever practice works for the purpose, yet I'd like to add (leaving to Attilio to correct me, no problem!) that it doesn't even matter what style or what practice.
As long as it's a lot of it, it may build up the right pressure. Even jogging having Aikido in mind might improve your aikido!

I'm not going to be good at Aikido ever, maybe. But I like it and I am devoting myself to it my way. When I can go jogging and do katas in pitch dark at 4am in a park (we have no major criminality here lol - I would hate having to pass from katas to a real fight, in order to find a knive into my belly :-) )) in total solitude, I don't feel that I am getting better at Aikido - but I feel I am engaged to my path to it, whatever its outcome.

St Augustine wrote "love, and then do whatever you want".
We could say: "Practice a lot, nearly in whatever way you want".
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Old 05-09-2011, 02:40 AM   #66
Hellis
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Diana Frese wrote: View Post
Tony, you're going on vacation? Henry's (please excuse the informality) request doesn't seem a clear clue as to where?
(a stick of rock?)
Chuck has just agreed we should practice every day, so thanks for keeping track of us until we got to this point. We'll do our best while you're away, and hope you approve of our training ....
Diana

Tony did say earlier ( somewhere ) that he was going to Japan for one month.

During the wartime 40s / 50s when a child went to the coast, which was not often - It was always called the ``seaside `` that child would bring a stick of rock back for his friends - a stick of rock is a baton of candy with the name of the resort running all the way through - all colours and flavours - hard and sweet .So, some of us olduns will still say to someone going to wonderful places around the world, places which were impossible to us as kids " Don't forget my stick of rock " .. a bit of social history
They still make rock at all our seaside resorts to this day.
Henry Ellis
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http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:19 AM   #67
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Demetrio,

If the first Doshu changed O'Seseis teachings, then we are not really doing O'Senseis Aikido are we?

My entire point. What is being practiced today is not what O'Sensei called Aikido. He even stated that.

So its not a case of "deal with it" its a case of recognising that what is being practiced today, is not what O'Sensei intended.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:45 AM   #68
lbb
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
If the first Doshu changed O'Seseis teachings, then we are not really doing O'Senseis Aikido are we?
No, and there is no way to get "back" to "what O'Sensei[sic] intended"...so maybe it's time to stop carrying on about it and get on with our lives.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:10 AM   #69
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

If the first Doshu changed O'Seseis teachings, then we are not really doing O'Senseis Aikido are we?
No, we are not doing O Sensei Aikido, but that's because we are not him, not because the changes his son made.

Only Ueshiba Morihei was doing O Sensei's Aikido.

Quote:
My entire point. What is being practiced today is not what O'Sensei called Aikido. He even stated that
No one was practising O Sensei's Aikido even when he was alive.

Quote:
So its not a case of "deal with it" its a case of recognising that what is being practiced today, is not what O'Sensei intended.
That's a different thing. Do you know what really O Sensei intended or do you think you know what O Sensei intended?

Do you really want to do O Sensei's Aikido? For real? If yor answer is "yes" your only option is channeling and became possessed by his kami. There are tools for that: the ones he used to channel and be possessed by the kami themselves.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:16 AM   #70
Carsten Möllering
 
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
... it is historical fact that O'Sensei stopped teaching at Hombu ...
When was that?

What are the "9 Elements" in your usage of words?

Is it of concern that the concept of kotai, jutai, ekitai and kitai does also exist in judo?
What about aikidoka who know this terms or this concept but don't use it when teaching?

Do you study the three elements, four souls and eight Powers?

Does it matter that "aikido" is a term of Hirai Minoru which had to be adopted by O sensei when being integrated into the Dai nihon butokukai? (Which he first didn't want to accept as far as I know.)

Does it matter that Ueshibas concepts of harmoy with the univers (and other concepts) stem from shinto? Do you study the Kojiki and the Nihongi?
And do you read the texts of Ueshiba?

Quote:
To me this is the biggest issue in the Aikido World today.
Why is that so?

Last edited by Carsten Möllering : 05-09-2011 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:38 AM   #71
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Demetrio, Carsten and others,

Im not going to respond to the points individually.

The simple fact of the matter is that we are not following O'Senseis teachings.

If you are happy doing what you are doing then fine, but it is not what O'Sensei left us. So you should not be calling it Aikido.

"That which people who practice the martial arts call Aiki is fundamentally different to what i call Aiki" - O'Sensei
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:46 AM   #72
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
"That which people who practice the martial arts call Aiki is fundamentally different to what i call Aiki" - O'Sensei
Citation please.
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Old 05-09-2011, 08:46 AM   #73
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
Demetrio, Carsten and others,

Im not going to respond to the points individually.

The simple fact of the matter is that we are not following O'Senseis teachings.

If you are happy doing what you are doing then fine, but it is not what O'Sensei left us. So you should not be calling it Aikido.

"That which people who practice the martial arts call Aiki is fundamentally different to what i call Aiki" - O'Sensei
Lee,

So you have given ample evidence that you don't know what you are talking about, except you strictly believe whatever your seniors tell you; you don't care to do the reading to fill your gaps or challenge your views; you don't know who you are talking to and you don't care to find out who you are talking to; and now you finally say you don't want to discuss at all.

Are you just here to make announcements of the Truth???

Last edited by Nicholas Eschenbruch : 05-09-2011 at 08:48 AM. Reason: capitalise "Truth" :)
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:18 AM   #74
Lee Crockett
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

So where have i given evidence i dont know what i am talking about? In fact, people have agreed with what i said by saying "deal with it"

My source, a book by Pierre Chassang who was a student of Abe, Nakazono, Noro and Tamura. Though i have also read and heard it elsewhere.

If people believe they know more than me, then where are people offering alternatives? They arent, its people just DISMISSING what i say without a valid argument to support their position.

I am happy to DISCUSS, but when what i believe challenges peoples beliefs they have held for 20 or 30 years, they get dismissive and defensive.
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Old 05-09-2011, 09:55 AM   #75
Nicholas Eschenbruch
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Re: Three Levels of Aikido

Quote:
Lee Crockett wrote: View Post
So where have i given evidence i dont know what i am talking about? In fact, people have agreed with what i said by saying "deal with it"

My source, a book by Pierre Chassang who was a student of Abe, Nakazono, Noro and Tamura. Though i have also read and heard it elsewhere.

If people believe they know more than me, then where are people offering alternatives? They arent, its people just DISMISSING what i say without a valid argument to support their position.

I am happy to DISCUSS, but when what i believe challenges peoples beliefs they have held for 20 or 30 years, they get dismissive and defensive.
Look, believe what you want to believe, I am sorry for having made it personal and I apologize. Sincerely.

Still, people may be 'dismissing' your theories because they (the theories) are narrow-minded and dated and there is so much more out there that it is difficult to even start correcting.

And because you ignore it when they do give alternatives. Many have.

Here are my "alternatives": you asked for, just to make up for it, off the top of my head:
(1) Read the stuff I suggested to you before - I think I did? Ellis Amdur, Peter Goldsbury? It's sort of commonplace for many people here. Plus some on the religious systems O'Sensei practised. There is a fun chapter or two in Carmen Blacker's "Catalpa Bow" as well.
(2) Go and practise with lot's of people outside of your own lineage and listen carefully to what they have to say.
(3) Stop thinking one book by whoever plus hearsay will give you all the answers. Look for outside confirmation or dismissal of what your teachers say. Consider it.
(4) Find out who Arikawa Sensei's most senior Western student is.
(5) Consider the Saito Sensei quotes Chris Lee offered in another thread you participated in.
(6) Read some of the thousands of posts about the "real" body skills (aiki, IP/IS, whatever) of Ueshiba Morihei here. Pay attention to the ones by Dan Harden and Mike Sigman. Ignore the fighting. If you dont buy it, at least it will give you a much bigger picture.
(7) Stop thinking anybody can get O'Sensei's enlightenment. It cannot be done.

There are more.

BTW, that way you may just start to appreciate the contexts and questions you are dealing with - I am not telling you I have answers.
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