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Old 06-04-2002, 01:22 AM   #51
chadsieger
Dojo: Minh Sensei
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Talking

Practicing the techniques for "the feel" is how we train in Aikido. This enables us to use the attackers energy. Old, young, and physicaly weak alike can conduct effective budo having gained the necessary priciples of capturing an opponets energy and center and utilizing it for their own purposes. This what I understand Aikido to be, and unless an atemi is part of the technique, we see if we can produce the same results without one. If the uke makes it incredibly difficult (hold tight is weak, ki(ing) down is tougher), then if we are forced to make the move work without atemi, boy is it tough! With proper training, it eventually works and another rung is climbed.
No well intentioned way of training is "incorrect." However,
1.You can't always atemi (tied hand, occupied hand, severed hand?)
2.Physical abilty decreases with age, ki(or whatever you call it) does not (that is how physicaly unassuming masters exist, and they do!)
3.Utilize priciples off the mat, not techniques
If any of this makes sense to anyone, if anyone has any questions, or if there is one thing that bothers you, feel free to communicate!

Thanks for reading!
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Old 06-04-2002, 02:16 AM   #52
Chuck Clark
 
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There is a lot more to understanding "atemi" than just striking or hitting to injure. Atemi also means to "stun" and can be a major part of any stragegy of waza. It can be done with any amount of energy and speed. Depends on what you're using it for.

Regards,

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 06-04-2002, 06:28 AM   #53
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Clark There is a lot more to understanding "atemi" than just striking or hitting to injure. Atemi also means to "stun" and can be a major part of any stragegy of waza. It can be done with any amount of energy and speed. Depends on what you're using it for.
Hi Chuck - you've been quite lately. I'ld also like to add that it can involve other parts of the body besides the hard points. Irimi nage is an atemi waza for example.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-04-2002, 08:38 AM   #54
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Irimi nage is an atemi waza for example.
Just to be 100% fair, I'd have to say that it depends on the way the technique is done.

The way my instructor does it, the inside of the "irimi arm" definitely can make contact. Oh, the joy of having rough canvas smeared across one's face!

I know other really great instructors, though, that teach that all the work is done with the trunk of the body and the "irimi arm" is just there to "give shape".

Shifting back to the main thread:

In the way my instructor teaches, atemi is there, newaza is there, reversals are there, a host of possibilities are there. To train without heightening one's awareness of them is to "take your partner cheap". It's an insult.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-04-2002, 09:30 AM   #55
Misogi-no-Gyo
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Training in PA

chadsieger:

I am planning on being in your area in late June, or early July. I would very much like to come and practice at your dojo, with you and your teacher. If this is at all possible, would you be so kind to help arrange this for me. Thank you.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 06-04-2002, 06:10 PM   #56
les paul
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Chad

Chad wrote:
Mr. Calugaru,

Yes, to answer your first question, randori is a valued component of our training.

With regard to your second question, "How without real Atemi waza?" I blend with the attackers energy (yokomenuchi, tsuki, grap, ect.), control my oponents center, and redirct the attack using the uke's engery into a throw or hold. Throws have their value, especially when its into the next assailant! Holds can be of value as well, once you have an uke's center, you can control him at will, and you've got yourself an nice shield and a weapon.
Randori is far for complex then what I've described here.
End Quote:


Ok...you have done some randori! Cool!


Chad wrote:
But, if the uke is truly trying to attack (as all good uke's should do!), they will "give" you their energy, accept it, use it, and you will never have to atemi again.
However, off the mat, with my life in danger, I would not know what my true budo would look like. My actions would depend on the attacks. Strikes do have value as however, they get people who don't know what they're doing on the ground in a hurry.
End quote:

This is true, however it souds like you would/might use atemi waza if the situation warrented its use?

Chad wrote:
Honestly, on some of the inside (which are therefore more dangerous), Aikido does in fact require a physical atemi. So, Ueshiba was correct when he mentioned atemis of the physical variety (every Aikido move does require a ki atemi to be done correctly, whether you believe in ki or not). However, if you use an atemi on every move, how will you ever learn circles, softness, extension, sensitivity, and all of the other qualities that are inherant in training with the techniques correctly?

Thanks for reading!
End quote:

I'm glad to see you practice randori. It appears there is some truth/budo in it. And your view point is right on depending on atemi waza to much.


It just that I've had some experience in a diffrent art other than Aikido. Thus I've learned skilled attackers doen't commit to attacks in ways that the unskilled do. Atemi waza greatly inhances and ease our ability to conduct ourselves in such situations when faced by skilled attackers.

Sometimes a good fierce punch in the nose in order to shomen-irimi-nage is our only option.

I understand that this isn't how some people view Aikido. But if confronted by a skilled aggressor who knows when to and when "not" to attack, atemi waza opens many options against this type of foe. Nothing says you have to actually strike them.

Chuck Clark deffinition of Atemi waza is great!

We all know Atemi waza is great for multiple opponents who attack at the same time also. How many times in Randori have you seen one attacker stoped by an atemi waza while the other is dealt with first?

What happens if we are confined to a small space unable to move?

There are just too many reasons why Atemi waza "SHOULD" be practiced in all Aikido Ryu to metion.

The same could be said for learning ground fighting skills.

These are just points of contention and nothing else.

What's important is

Aikido offers many things to many people. Hence, it means many things to these said people.


It's been good talking to you Chad.

Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
Michigan
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Old 06-04-2002, 08:10 PM   #57
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
I know other really great instructors, though, that teach that all the work is done with the trunk of the body and the "irimi arm" is just there to "give shape".
Hi Greg;

I am a strong believer in using the trunk of the body. When doing aigamae-ate for example (read standard irimi-nage except that hand makes contact with chin) the hand doesn't push or hit but almost acts as a guide. The power comes from the hips.

For the rest of the thread out there - randori varies a lot. From low level free-style with multiple partners to something akin to battle royal. When I talk about randori I tend to mean two people resisting, countering, more like Judo randori. Personally speaking the phrase "We do randori" on this list has no meaning especially in the context of budo. Sorry if I sound a bit jaded.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:45 PM   #58
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Hi Greg;

I am a strong believer in using the trunk of the body. When doing aigamae-ate for example (read standard irimi-nage except that hand makes contact with chin) the hand doesn't push or hit but almost acts as a guide. The power comes from the hips.
<greg in his best pseudo bahamian accent replies>
No Mon, I mean, like _really_ there _only_ to provide shape. No contact a'tall. Some, dat is, not us.

<back in his normal, twangy, Tennessee/Texas accent, greg goes on>
We actually do it both ways, but we don't see anything wrong with there being contact, even rough contact, between the "irimi arm" and the neck/chin. But we're kind of unrefined. <by choice(?)>.

Best Regards,

Last edited by Greg Jennings : 06-04-2002 at 10:49 PM.

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:53 PM   #59
chadsieger
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Talking

Thanks for replying!

It my held belief that a any newly appointed shodan, who has yet to atemi in his/her career, who is comfortable with most techniques, comfortable with the feel of using an opponents energy, and well versed in the pricipals can learn how to add atemis in under an hour. My suggestion would be to supplement his/her Aikido training with boxing, tai chi, kung fu, ect., for an hour on the weekends during thier Aikido training.
My point simply is this; atemis will come naturally with learning the techniques. Look for opportunities to strike constantly while training of course, but hip/body/ki(whatever) usage is where Aikido derives its power. Concentrate on using that power for maximum results.


Thanks for reading!
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Old 06-04-2002, 11:27 PM   #60
PeterR
 
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That's assuming you are limiting your definition of atemi to hard strike with a closed fist. Atemi waza in its full sense is not something you just pick up.

Aikido contains strikes, its there, it always has been there. I don't understand the purpose of limiting your training in this respect and then going somewhere else to learn what you eliminated.

Quote:
Originally posted by chadsieger
Thanks for replying!

It my held belief that a any newly appointed shodan, who has yet to atemi in his/her career, who is comfortable with most techniques, comfortable with the feel of using an opponents energy, and well versed in the pricipals can learn how to add atemis in under an hour. My suggestion would be to supplement his/her Aikido training with boxing, tai chi, kung fu, ect., for an hour on the weekends during thier Aikido training.
My point simply is this; atemis will come naturally with learning the techniques. Look for opportunities to strike constantly while training of course, but hip/body/ki(whatever) usage is where Aikido derives its power. Concentrate on using that power for maximum results.


Thanks for reading!

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:11 PM   #61
Bruce Baker
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Concepts and execution

Most of the people who answer the questions, here on the Aikiweb, really do mean well ... but not all of them have a backround in concepts of meditation or can execute these inner mind concepts in physical Aikido practice. So let it go.

There are, however, ways to clear the mind and open a channel from what you percieve in your mind to what can be physically achieved by the human body. Many of these concepts are found in religious studies, and in yoga manuals, but in many ways our continued Aikido practice trys to adopt some of these principles in an attempt to overcome people either conquering our own physical/mental state with force or mental suggestions.

So ... what the hell does that all mean?

Yeah, you can use forms of mental discipline to enhance your physical strength and performance.

Does that simplify it for some of you knot-heads?

Hey, we tell ourselves and others to concetrate on what we are doing, or pay attention to what is going on, why?

Because we are trying to get the mental process alligned with the physical body.

So, although we have a new explorer on the scene, let's try to be polite?

Of course, I could envite all of you disbelievers to come to Atlantic City, being a reasonable vacation excuse, and come play with Bruce and show me I am wrong? It would be great fun! I like nothing more than to be proven wrong, it continues my education of MA with punctuation.

On the other hand, I could be right?

In that case, I might be able to show you how to connect to a strength beyond the physical strength we all take for granted when we are young? Wouldn't that be worth the trip?

Love hurts ... nothing but love for Ya'all.

Just kidding.

By the way, Chris, you are close enough to some of Dillman's pressure point guys, so maybe you should check out a seminar about Chi/Ki? But do continue to practice Aikido without thinking about attacking or violence, it is best way to connect the puzzle of Martial Arts. Aikido really has some great training techniques that are not as damaging as some martial arts, you will stay healthier, longer with your Aikido practice.

And remember, let a couple of days go by before you answer goading posts.
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:43 PM   #62
SeiserL
 
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Yes, I would have to admit that where the head goes the body tends to follow. Applies to Aikido and psychology.

I do often recommend Aikido physical practice for the body alignment and movement, and I certainly support that the arms guide and transfer the power from the center/hara/hips. Allows you to use the entire body.

I also suggest that before one abandons the mind and clear it by meditation technqiues they spend some time uncovering and resolving mental/emotional blockages that due to history are on automatic pilot. Make sure a new direction is select before you take it off manual pilot and put it back on auto.

I also learned and recommend that the first front of self-defense is good manners and a lessening of the ego that any one us have all the answers, that our way is the only right way, or that everything is about us. Learn not to take things personally. Enter and blend, gotta love it.

Relax, breath, and enjoy yourself.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 06-06-2002, 01:50 AM   #63
chadsieger
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Talking

Mr. Raven and Mr. Baker, if you have not received the emails that I sent you, please let me know.

Thanks.
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