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Old 02-23-2011, 12:25 PM   #51
RonRagusa
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
If you're going to start your response with "Oh please Mary", as if I were some kind of idiot child, you can at least refrain from concluding it with an insincere "Best".

And you still haven't answered my first question. All you've done is say, in effect, "Did so!" I asked you how he "contribut[ed] to the situation". If you don't want to answer it, then don't. Silence is always an option, and may be the best one in a thread where the second-guessing of motives seems to be the main course.
It's a shame that you can readily accept my expression of exasperation with a post of yours and so readily reject my sincere wishes for the best for you. Both were truly expressed.

Ron
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Old 02-23-2011, 12:28 PM   #52
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.
As for what you believe I meant...you could try taking it at face value when I said what I meant.
It is an interesting point for discussion.
I would not hurt some one to make a point. If someone else chooses to... that is up to them. I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.
Mary
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Old 02-23-2011, 01:56 PM   #53
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.
As for what you believe I meant...you could try taking it at face value when I said what I meant.
I took what you said at face value. I still don't see how I misinterpreted your words, but I'm perfectly willing to accept that you meant something different.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
It is an interesting point for discussion.
I would not hurt some one to make a point. If someone else chooses to... that is up to them.
I understand. I think maybe the discussion could have proceeded better without your example, though, since no one was hurt (and therefore no one chose to hurt anyone) in that case.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.
Who called someone an idiot?
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Old 02-23-2011, 02:00 PM   #54
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Give me a break. I think Keith might be able to taker care of himself.
I'm not sure if you are talking to me or not... but I am certain you are correct. Keith is more then capable of taking care of hiself. I was merely stating that if I were Keith, and people kept taking what I said out of context, I might just stop offering up experiences/stories because of situations like this.

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I would also not call someone an idiot. I may not like how people respond to me on these threads or on the mat but I don't have to call them names to make myself feel better.
Is this from another experience of yours or did this occur in this thread?

Last edited by ninjaqutie : 02-23-2011 at 02:02 PM.

~Look into the eyes of your opponent & steal his spirit.
~To be a good martial artist is to be good thief; if you want my knowledge, you must take it from me.
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:06 PM   #55
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Keith called the uke an idiot. It is right at the end of the quote.
Mary
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:31 PM   #56
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke getting hurt

Hi Mary,

I'm sorry this thread is getting derailed, as I agree it could be an interesting discussion.

With sincere respect, though, if Keith calling uke "idiot" is up for discussion, it seems to me the actual situation is the operative one to address, even though you originally wanted to use the quote a a jumping-off point, and even though, notwithstanding further clarification, as an individual, you still might not use the term.

Questions of etiquette aside, would you agree that uke seems to have acted foolishly?

I also was wondering with respect to these issues how much the customs and expectations from one's own training affect our judgments. Thoughts?

Best,

David Henderson
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:39 PM   #57
Janet Rosen
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Re: uke getting hurt

My thought is that I'm following Keith in walking away from this thread. Here's another thread just deteriorating due to people writing as if they are more interested in scoring points on/over each other or over perceived slights than talking about an interesting thing that happened on the mat.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-23-2011, 03:41 PM   #58
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Re: uke getting hurt

Deleted.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 02-23-2011 at 03:43 PM. Reason: Ignore list is your friend, ignore list is your friend. lather, rinse, repeat

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Old 02-23-2011, 04:25 PM   #59
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

I came back to aikiweb thinking it might be different this time. I am not trying to mean to anyone. Keith... how can you be a fighter and be so sensitive and Janet who I am I insulting? He called the guy an idiot...did you not read it?
If George Ledyard or someone else who is supposedly respected on this board wrote what i did the whole thread would be in a different view.
How do you get the benifit of the doubt here...what is the right way to post?
Why can some people say anything they want and when i post some one always finds something wrong with it...unless I am describing the frigging weather.
I don't think it is right to hurt people. What is wrong with that?

Mary
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:52 PM   #60
Janet Rosen
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Re: uke getting hurt

1. Nobody was hurt.
2. Referring to an anonymous nonposter as an idiot in a post is not the same as an ad hominen attack between posters, IMO.
3. Your post re use of word idiot never specified it was in the OP where I suspect many readers didn't take special note of it, leaving us to wonder who called who a idiot in the process of the thread.
5. To me, and this is just me, any position based on "well, if HE wrote this it would be treated differently" is akin to "but Sally's mom let's her" - it is irrelevent speculation that devalues one's actual position/arguement

Mary I normally decline to engage in this kind of metadiscussion. You're question seemed sincerely put tho so I'm replying to the best of my ability. But I will not in turn see this be a starting point for argument; as you probably have noticed, my general policy is to walk away from what I see as pointless exchanges.

Janet Rosen
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Old 02-23-2011, 04:59 PM   #61
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
I don't think it is right to hurt people. What is wrong with that?

Mary
Do you mean it is wrong to injure people or wrong to cause any pain while training martial arts? Just guessing at what you might have meant.

I doubt you will find many supporters for "It's ok to break people who take bad ukemi or otherwise don't measure up." I didn't notice any on the thread.

If you are totally against causing any pain, well you can think anything you want. Some will agree, some won't.

Regards,
Mark
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:29 PM   #62
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Re: uke getting hurt

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Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Do you mean it is wrong to injure people or wrong to cause any pain while training martial arts? Just guessing at what you might have meant.

I doubt you will find many supporters for "It's ok to break people who take bad ukemi or otherwise don't measure up." I didn't notice any on the thread.

If you are totally against causing any pain, well you can think anything you want. Some will agree, some won't.
This. Yes, it is wrong to deliberately injure practice partners for any reason.

However, there are several important caveats. The first is that pain does not mean injury. (And did not in the example that sparked this thread.) The second is that we are practicing a full contact martial art: if no injuries happen, ever, I question the validity of what is being practiced.

And finally, the uke in this example was not a beginner, and as such should be expected to take some responsibility for his own well-being.

Katherine

PS Not going to comment on the meta-discussion, except to observe that there appears to be some kind of subtext going on that goes over my head as a relatively infrequent reader/poster. People are assuming attitudes that do not appear to be supported by anything in the thread itself.
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Old 02-23-2011, 06:46 PM   #63
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Re: uke getting hurt

"Why do you hate freedom?"
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:15 PM   #64
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Re: uke getting hurt

I am going to bow out now rather ungracefully. It was not my purpose to cause anyone embarassment. I think i just really don't get how to do this very well.
Sorry to offend. Mary
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Old 02-23-2011, 07:54 PM   #65
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Hi, just read this from beginning. So here's my ten cents.

Firstly Keith was illustrating a point to do with the ignorance or even resistance of an uke can in many cases lead to them ahrning themselves in Aikido to various degrees.(Point being uke causing their own pain)

Secondly looking at the way of the teacher. For discussion purposes I would say there are of course teachers of various degrees of ability.

A) If the teacher is Quite good then when the uke persistently tries to get up then he would probably do as this one did. ie: Let it off a couple of times and then hold it or enforce it slightly to make the point.

B)However, if the teacher is very good he would actually ask the uke to try and keep trying to get out of the pin or to get up. Why? Because being a very good and able teacher the uke won't be able to move and thus impossible to be injured.

C)Therefore if it was meant to be a demonstration of holding a person down momentarily then if he is an excellent teacher again there would be no problem.

Conclusion: If a quite good teacher then it's understandable what happened.It could even be that the uke had the view that the uke should always keep trying to get up no matter what and thus thought he was being right and missing the point of the demo. The teacher thinking he was just being obstinate may then have done what he did. Who knows? A common misunderstanding. Which also leads to pain.

The optimum is that there should be no need to give pain but that would take a very good teacher and thus that would be a lesson to the uke which is much more powerful than learning by pain for he's put in a position where there's absolutely nothing he can do. Can't even move and yet feels no pain.

So that is possible and preferable and so from that viewpoint there should be no pain in teaching, be it a high level and high goal. May I say also this would be a higher level of responsibility also that many may not have experienced.

For those who can do this, I'm assuming someone like Ron Ragusa can, then that person will be aware that when it is not done in this way that ego IS involved. It's all a matter of levels and ability.

Maybe that's more than ten cents, maybe it's a whole dollar. Sorry about that.

Regards.G.

Last edited by graham christian : 02-23-2011 at 07:55 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-24-2011, 08:42 AM   #66
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Re: uke getting hurt

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B)However, if the teacher is very good he would actually ask the uke to try and keep trying to get out of the pin or to get up. Why? Because being a very good and able teacher the uke won't be able to move and thus impossible to be injured.
Wouldn't that depend what he was trying to teach? I can imagine many situations where a teacher may not use their full capability, or may leave openings, or allow a student to make small mistakes even when the teacher is capable of preventing them, in the interest of teaching.

E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:55 AM   #67
George S. Ledyard
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

a) there is a huge difference between injuring someone and that same person experiencing pain. A lot of what we do can be painful. It's a martial art.

b) pain is just another form of feedback, the uke should be listening. I have had folks choose not to. I will let off a technique rather than injure someone but I have no problem having them feel the pain that comes with being somewhere one shouldn't be.

I know there have been times when I eased up so as to not hurt someone and the uke thought I didn't have the technique. They can think what they want... I have no interest in working with people that stupid so, generally, I walk away.

If it's one of my own students, however, I will let them experience a bit of what they are letting themselves in for if they resist. I can control what I do and it's better they learn from me than do the same dumb thing at a seminar and have someone really crank one on.

This is a martial art. I have a problem with the idea that everyone else needs to take responsibility for making sure you don't experience any unpleasantness. Injuring people is unacceptable. But teaching them to take responsibility for their own actions, in this case not doing something dumb while taking ukemi, is my job.

c) that said... it's also a matter of level. Pain is very ineffective in a martial encounter. Locks done with "aiki" don't even hurt at the point of the lock itself, but they take your whole center. Most folks don't do their locks that way. Most folks put all their energy directly into the point of contact. This isn't very high level practice but it works if you are strong and doesn't if you are not. People willing to put up with some discomfort will beat locks done this way.

So, the uke needs to learn what his or her physical limitations are. That never happens when everyone is so scared to apply techniques for fear that something might hurt. Nage needs to experience the fact that technique done in order to cause pain doesn't actually work very well. Once again, you don't get strong enough to stand in there and give that feedback to nage if no one ever applies techniques strongly on you. This kind of practice leads to students who will not go train outside their own dojos because their own dojo environment is so protective and the cruel world outside is not. Being over protective is the opposite side of being abusive and is equally unbalanced as far as the student's development goes.

Some of my attitude on this is colored by working with the Systema folks a bit. Much of what they do is very painful yet almost nothing they do is injurious. I see fewer injuries in their classes than in a typical Aikido practice. They learn how to relax and move the energy of what is causing them pain. Learning that pain just isn't that big a deal takes the load off it on an emotional level. If someone is afraid of experiencing pain, then anyone who can cause you pain can take your center. That just isn't good martial arts.

So, part of teaching ukemi is teaching how to relax and move so that what would have caused pain doesn't. You won't learn this if no one ever applies a technique that causes discomfort. Ukemi needs to be defensive, at least eventually. It is how you protect yourself, even when someone doesn't have your best interests at heart. That never happens if all the responsibility is put on nage not to do anything annoying to uke.

So, just to be clear... injury is bad, injury is to be avoided. Causing pain as a form of domination is bad and isn't actually effective. But a certain amount of pain is another form of feedback and one that people tend to remember better than explanations about why they shouldn't do a particular thing. In the situation described, I see no issue with how the teacher allowed the uke to feel the results of his ukemi choices.

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Old 02-24-2011, 12:18 PM   #68
Keith Larman
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Re: uke getting hurt

Graham -- I simply don't know how to reply to your post.

Basia -- Yup, that was precisely what he was trying to teach. How to properly take ukemi to *avoid* potential injury. He repeatedly ignored the instruction. The Shihan allowed him to push into the joint lock in a safe controlled fashion, vastly (for him) better than letting someone else with less control or training just crank him. Which is likely what would have eventually happened.

George -- thank you. You precisely covered exactly how I saw the event but also how training is supposed to be done. I am completely baffled by the idea that there will be no pain in training. No, pain compliance is rarely a good idea as a larger concept. But it is an aspect of what we do. I wonder how they perform a simple nikyo for that matter. But, that said, along the path to "perfect aiki form" where we can magically control the other person flawlessly and with astoundingly pain free technique there are going to be a lot of bumps. But again, thank you for your post. I must admit to total frustration with this thread up to this point.

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Old 02-24-2011, 01:43 PM   #69
Gary David
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

George has it right, at some point pain won't help you. If you have not destabilized them by taking hold of all of them they will just smile at you while you are grinding away. There are more and more folks out there that have better control of what they are doing as to make pain ineffective. For fun as uke try working your way back from the point of conflict, say with a nikkyo. Resist at the wrist, then drop back to resisting that the elbow, then the shoulder with nage continuing to apply torque at the wrist...see if it is easier to hold. When I apply nikkyo I am looking to edge the uke's weight on to the one of the their feet. Working my way all the way down there. This is where my intention is going, not into hurting the wrist.

About getting hurt, as uke I have been injured more than once, none of these intentional. I have both shoulders separated more than once because the nage broke down.....was not intentional, they just broke down. Before you say to me if I were good enough I should not have been hurt......when someone loads you up on their hip and then collapses under you half way through and before they clear you off there is not much time.

As for me hurting others, only once that I know of and two other times when someone was trying to hurt me I had to make a point.....then did I take them to the edge and as they were down on the mat bend over to ask them if they wanted to continue this way or just train.

On a funny note relating to the situation that Keith is talking to back when my daughter was in 8th grade they has a field trip to Disney Land here in CA and she had be sick...she keep after me until I let her go with the understanding that I would come to pick her up before dark. When I got there I got a lot of flack from one of her class mates who was inches shorter than me and a fly weight. As he kept on with the funny banter my daughter ask me to show him the wrist technique (yonkyo) and he offer up his arm. He was at my feet before he could say anything. As I kept talking to my daughter friends I eased off an he tried to stand....right into the yonkyo again... I said to him just stay down and you will feel no pain.....he didn't listen. Never hurt him, except maybe his pride...as my daughter and I walked away we could hear him say "...I could have taken him" My daughter and I had a good laugh as we walked out to the car.
Gary
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:59 PM   #70
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Re: uke getting hurt

Gary, great story. I had a guy who I put on the ground repeatedly who kept getting up saying "that won't work". I think his problem was that he couldn't figure out how I was taking his balance and he couldn't quite grok a technique that didn't involve pain. He didn't think it was effective because it didn't hurt him, although he completely missed the fact that I had him each time and had him fully under control. Whatever. He can walk away feeling it wasn't working. Won't ruin my day.

WRT to the word idiot, if for no other reason but to be complete. I was referring to his behavior. He was acting idiotically. One common usage of idiotic is to act foolishly with lack of concern to one's well being. "It is idiotic to jump out of a plane without a parachute". Another common usage is to convey absurdity. Yet another would be someone trying some completely ridiculous way to do something. "He rather idiotically tried to dig a hole in concrete using only a toothpick." There are *other* meanings such as saying the person is "intellectually challenged". Well, quite frankly someone not taking advice like that given the context, given who was giving the advice, given prior experience might actually make a good case that there may be a defect somewhere along the line. It was an idiotic thing to do. He behaved like an idiot. Of course one may find the term too strong, but to be honest I found the guy's behavior foolish, absurd, ridiculous, ...

I am completely baffled by the notion that everything must be flowers, puppies and happy thoughts. Warm fuzzies for everyone! No, sometimes people act like jerks. Sometimes they act like idiots. When they do so they are jerks. When they do so they are idiots. Lord knows I've done both myself.

And I am completely astounded that something I thought was a totally banal observation ended up being the fuel for so much. If a student never experiences any pain whatsoever in training how will they know the limits of what they are doing? How will they know what they could in fact do to the other person? How will they react the first time someone comes along and punches them? Yeah, most will stand their like a deer in the headlights.

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Old 02-24-2011, 02:33 PM   #71
Marc Abrams
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Re: uke getting hurt

Keith:

I totally agree with your position. Some people seem to forget that we are actually training an a martial art. Go figure.... Pain is a signal event that is evolutionary in nature. It astounds me that in today's society, we take such a negative spin on pain, anxiety and negative emotional states. They are part of our evolutionary development that help signal us to take actions. The person you described is the type of person who get registered in the Darwin Awards annals......

I also believe what George talked about as far as the higher level execution of "joint-lock" techniques. The best part is that when the person is off-balanced, they are not able to effectively use force against a joint-lock and you can then apply pain at the site so that it really hurts...

To chime in on funny joint-lock stories... My son (now 16) had just turned 11y/o. We were at a friend of mine's (former student of mine) 4th of July party. His daughter (18y/o at that time) was on the back deck with a gang of boys. All of the sudden we hear a loud bang. My friend comes up to me laughing his ass off and tell me that the alpha male heard that Kyle studied martial arts. The boy wanted to show-off in front of my friend's daughter. My son, being vertically challenged like myself, tried to avoid the situation, but the kid kept up. Kyle gracefully put him into an ikkyo. The fool tried to strongly stand up and the result was that he went suddenly horizontal and his body hit the deck with a loud slam. The boy stalked off talking about how he just faked hitting the ground.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:43 PM   #72
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Basia Halliop wrote: View Post
Wouldn't that depend what he was trying to teach? I can imagine many situations where a teacher may not use their full capability, or may leave openings, or allow a student to make small mistakes even when the teacher is capable of preventing them, in the interest of teaching.

E.g. if he was trying to show the uke how to take safer ukemi and show them that attempting to force their way through a pin could be ill-advised or could get them hurt, then doing it in such a way that uke can't even try to do the ill-advised thing might not be a very clear way of demonstrating that... It would show that that teacher can stop such an uke (and might provide opportunities to give tips on how to stop an uke from getting out of a pin), but that might not have been what the teacher was trying to show that uke.
Hi Basia.
On the face of it yes, it does depend. However in this case it was an uke who already knew that so that wasn't the demonstration. Once again I'll say unless the uke had a misunderstanding.

Also I'm not saying you can't do that, show how whan 'a' happens it causes pain. Of course you can. I'm introducing a third aspect where all these things can be done without pain as well.

That doesn't mean it's wrong to do as described. Those who are defensive about it to me is just showing me they don't believe that 'third way.'

Regards.G.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:06 PM   #73
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Re: uke getting hurt

Dear Graham,

You've jumped to conclusions about both the underlying incident as well as what people's reactions "show." (Keith already has confirmed your assumption about the incident is mistaken.) If you want to know whether people think there are ways to apply these techniques effectively without pain, just ask. If you want to know whether that idea changes anyone's view of what occurred, ask.

If you want to re-enforce your own assumptions, carry on.

David Henderson
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:07 PM   #74
graham christian
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Re: uke getting hurt

Marc and Keith. I see no problem with the story given. Done it many hundreds of times. I am surprised however by your views on no pain.

Keith, you tell a story of what you did and there was no pain except a rejection by the recipient.

So I find it funny that it tends to equate with roses in the garden and unreality justified by not only you saying we must remember it's a martial art.

So martial equals pain? Mmmm.

Effective, yes. Definite, yes. A 'soft' nikkyo is much more powerful and inescapable and effective than what you may be used to. One day you'll experience one.

Regards.G.
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:09 PM   #75
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Re: uke getting hurt

Carry on.

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