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Old 02-22-2011, 06:55 AM   #1
Mary Eastland
 
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uke getting hurt

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote:
Saw a guy repeatedly start to get up after being taken down while the instructor was saying "stay down until I let you back up". The instructor kept releasing the lock because he didn't want to hurt the guy. But after about the third time he just left it on. Didn't crank anything but the guy came up and ran right into it, hurting his shoulder. And he got upset that he was injured. Idiot.
I question this. The instuctor could have let him up and used another uke to illustrate his or her point. People shouldn't be injured because of their ignorance.
What do you think?
Mary
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:01 AM   #2
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Re: uke getting hurt

I think uke should stick, in that situation, with sensei's instruction to stick to the ground.

Sounds like a fair and reasonable observation on sensei's behalf.

This is the type of situation where no one wants to get hurt but "incidents" happen. This case, in a situation perfectly avoidable.

Other than that, I believe Aikido's environment is such a controled one, that if people have good intentions it's quite difficult to people get hurt/injured.

Unless of course, people aims to actually... hurt others.

It's easy to hurt people in Aikido, but it's also easy (or at least one should work in that direction) to not to.
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:03 AM   #3
raul rodrigo
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Re: uke getting hurt

People get injured in training because of their ignorance all the time, not because the instructor is careless but because people don't listen. Happened to me a lot before. It may happen again. How much more explicit does the teacher have to be? "Stay down until I let you up."
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Old 02-22-2011, 07:52 AM   #4
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Raul Rodrigo wrote: View Post
People get injured in training because of their ignorance all the time, not because the instructor is careless but because people don't listen. Happened to me a lot before. It may happen again. How much more explicit does the teacher have to be? "Stay down until I let you up."
Hi Raul,

Yes, the teacher was explicit in his instruction. However, if it was me and my uke wouldn't stay down, for whatever reason, I'd have let him up and chosen another uke who better understood the point I was trying to make. Speculating on the incident Keith referred to in his post, I'd say that there was a clash of egos involved and that the instructor let his get the better of him. A learning experience for both parties. I hope they both learned something from it.

Best,

Ron
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:07 AM   #5
Keith Larman
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Re: uke getting hurt

Since you've pulled something from my thread...

I didn't give a full accounting either. He was trying to demonstrate how to hold the person down momentarily, but the uke kept getting up before he could make his point. After repeated warnings that he should stay until the technique is finished the instructor left it on a bit longer, but still let it go before injury. The point was to show that it would hurt and *could* injure if he tried to get up. One point to make was about Uke's safety which this guy was ignoring. Regardless, he wasn't injured, he just felt more pain than he'd like. There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:19 AM   #6
Mary Eastland
 
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Re: uke getting hurt

Keith said: " There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured ."
That is very true, Keith. I would rather use an uke that understood the point I was making rather than use someone who is more likely to hurt themselves and take the focus away from whatever I am teaching.
Mary

Last edited by Mary Eastland : 02-22-2011 at 08:21 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:21 AM   #7
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Re: uke getting hurt

Unless they've been in the military, most adults aren't used to situations where they really have to do what they're told, immediately. Their reaction to a command to not do something, most likely, is "What? Why--" while proceeding to do what they were doing anyway. On the one hand, if you're going to train in aikido and take the role of uke, you have to lose that habit fast. On the other hand, I think it is probably a fairly common reaction, although the individual in this example took it to an extreme. Maybe the answer is to have the "safety talk" with all newbies in which you explain that when one of your seniors tells you to do something in practice ("turn your center towards me", "stay down until I let you up", whatever), to just do what they're told in the interests of safety, and get an explanation afterward. Some people aren't going to be able to work with that...that's okay, there are plenty of hobbies out there where not doing what you're told won't send you to the hospital, and I'm sure we wish them every success in their chosen pursuit. But not aikido.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:27 AM   #8
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Eastland wrote: View Post
Keith said: " There is a significant difference between feeling a transient pain and being injured ."
That is very true, Keith. I would rather use an uke that understood the point I was making rather than use someone who is more likely to hurt themselves and take the focus away from whatever I am teaching.
I'm going to call false dichotomy on this, with a generous dose of armchair quarterbacking. You've reduced the situation to two clear-cut choices: using an uke that "understood the point" (assuming one was available -- this was, after all, the very point that you are trying to teach, and you would hardly have been trying to teach it if everyone already understood it), and using "someone who is more likely to hurt themselves" (assuming that you have prescient knowledge that this person would act in a manner directly counter to instruction and against the feedback that their body is giving them). Reducing a situation to two choices is attractive for the purpose of constructing an argument, but it's also often simplistic. In real life, the choices are seldom so clear, nor are they so neatly divided into exactly two choices. It seems to me that in this situation, having only one choice, or having several choices, are at least as likely as having precisely two.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:52 AM   #9
Keith Larman
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Re: uke getting hurt

Mary (M), I understand completely. In this case, however, the uke was a sankyu with a number of years of experience. He knew better. I was watching it happen and I was astounded at how bullheaded he was being. And in this case the level of pain was nothing more than one would normally experience in a more enthusiastic practice, but the uke was actually angry that the instructor put on the control the way it frankly should be put on. All while the instructor was trying to show him that he *couldn't* get up the way he was at the point he was getting up without a serious risk of injury. It was just a stupid thing to do, like trying to roll out of a pin in a way that could dislocate your shoulder. He was told this repeatedly and the guy had been training more than long enough to know better. And the instructor still let it go in time to prevent the injury.

I don't know what was going through uke's head. But it wasn't good. And this guy was also quite brutal in his techniques to other students at times having been talked to about it a number of times. He was eventually shown the door.

In other words, there was a vastly larger context in this case. But in some sense it was fairly simple. He was coming up out of a control that would normally require nage to either hurt or injure uke should they not comply. Apart from disregarding what he was being told by a Shihan repeatedly the guy showed horrible judgement and *did* know better.

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Old 02-22-2011, 08:54 AM   #10
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Re: uke getting hurt

People get injured because of their ignorance all the time. Just last night we had a bad snow storm. People were warned to stay off the roads because it was unsafe. Lots of people drove anyway. Quite a few ended up injured. That's just life.

When I entered into aikido training, I did so fully aware that what I was taking up was a martial art. I understand that to mean that I will be learning and experiencing techniques that have a high potential for injury. If I am stupid enough to disregard and disobey the instructions of my teacher, who is giving said instructions in order to protect me from injury, I think I deserve whatever I get.

In nature the stupid either die young or learn very quickly. Hopefully the fool learned his lesson.
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Old 02-22-2011, 09:58 AM   #11
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Re: uke getting hurt

In this situation it sounds to me like the person knew better and was asking for trouble. It is good to know that the instructor dropped proving his point in order to prevent injury to the student. I have seen my instructor ask for another uke if the present one isn't taking ukemi right and he is afraid they will injur themselves.

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Old 02-22-2011, 10:40 AM   #12
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Re: uke getting hurt

Ledyard Sensei wrote about a guy at at a seminar who injured a student during training. Flash back 20 years and maybe that guy pushed his sensei and sensei didn't push back.

This kind of thing is common in aikido. If I had one serious problem with aikido dojos and sensei/instructors it would be that we put our students in harm far too often. Obese students, students with HIV, student with mental disorders, bullies, etc. The list of whack-jobs and people who should not be on the mat that we let train is so long its ridiculous. Sensei's job is to provide a safe environment in which to train.

It's sounds harsh, but if anyone in the dojo gets hurt, that is sensei's responsibility. We are far less vigilant in looking out for our students and we are far more tolerant of poor behavior. I don't know if its because of political correctness, I don't know if its because we are not empowered to act even if we wanted to. But whether sensei hurts bad uke, or bad uke hurts another student - Sensei's job is to protect her students.

When you encounter a situation in which uke deliberately ignores sensei, that is a problem, It's not a misunderstanding; it's not a difference of opinion; it's not a clash of egos. It is insubordination. If uke is allowed to be insubordinate to sensei, do you think any other student has a chance of working with this guy? No. And in allowing the behavior you are also demonstrating to class that bully behavior is tolerated.

Turn the other cheek? Why, so you can't see this guy go off and abuse other students? No. I am sorry. I see no benefit from ignoring this behavior. Some day that guy may teach, or reach a level beyond reproach.

I think you can only mitigate the response; was I too hard, was I too soft? If you want to argue whether the level of response was appropriate... well, that's a different argument.

Last edited by jonreading : 02-22-2011 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 02-22-2011, 10:55 AM   #13
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Re: uke getting hurt

Jon, are you saying that people with HIV should not be allowed to train?
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Old 02-22-2011, 11:17 AM   #14
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Jon, are you saying that people with HIV should not be allowed to train?
Or obese, for that matter
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:13 PM   #15
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm going to call false dichotomy on this, with a generous dose of armchair quarterbacking. You've reduced the situation to two clear-cut choices: using an uke that "understood the point" (assuming one was available -- this was, after all, the very point that you are trying to teach, and you would hardly have been trying to teach it if everyone already understood it), and using "someone who is more likely to hurt themselves" (assuming that you have prescient knowledge that this person would act in a manner directly counter to instruction and against the feedback that their body is giving them). Reducing a situation to two choices is attractive for the purpose of constructing an argument, but it's also often simplistic. In real life, the choices are seldom so clear, nor are they so neatly divided into exactly two choices. It seems to me that in this situation, having only one choice, or having several choices, are at least as likely as having precisely two.
I am not arguing with anyone. I thought Keith made an interesting point. I am not trying to convince anyone to be different.
I am talking about how I teach. I pick my ukes according to what I want to show. I know that if I pick Charlie, Charlie is going to work very hard to help me. I know if I pick Mr. Third Kyu, I have a wild card. That seems pretty simple to me.
Mary
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:14 PM   #16
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Re: uke getting hurt

What about obese instructors? Can we really trust people that canīt handle their own food-intake to teach us refinement of character etc..

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
...Obese students, students with HIV, student with mental disorders, bullies, etc. The list of whack-jobs and people who should not be on the mat that we let train is so long its ridiculous. Sensei's job is to provide a safe environment in which to train.

* Iīm not skinny myself, this is not an attack on fat people.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:28 PM   #17
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Re: uke getting hurt

Just realized I never made another thing perfectly clear. This shihan gets out and practices on the mat when it is time to practice. He'll walk the floor helping, but if things are going well he'll join in. In this case it wasn't during his "teaching in front of the class" that this occurred. As a matter of fact I was the uke for that demonstration. It was when we broke into small groups to practice when he joined in not liking what he saw the guy doing. As a matter of fact the sensei also took ukemi from the guy 4 times showing him the proper way to lay out. Then when it was sensei's turn to be nage, well, that's when the guy kept being a jerk about it. So it wasn't a case of sensei not picking the right uke for demonstration, I know how to take the ukemi properly and I know full well that when I'm twisted in that position to just wait.

Frankly I told the story more about how the guy overreacted to being shown why you don't do what he was doing, especially after receiving explicit instruction from a shihan about what to do. My point (in the original thread) was about how people can be mightily stupid when it comes to some things. And in the case of the story I was telling the guy received a small jolt of pain, nothing most of us haven't experienced before during a sankyo when something goes wrong, either due to our own stupidity or due to nage inexperience.

I am ever so sorry I ever told the story.

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Old 02-22-2011, 12:32 PM   #18
Janet Rosen
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Re: uke getting hurt

Keith, I totally "got" what you were saying from the git-go.

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Old 02-22-2011, 12:32 PM   #19
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Re: uke getting hurt

Speaking as an instructor, I am saying that I am responsible for every person I allow on the mat, including those who raise the risk of injury to themselves or to another student. If that person brings himself or another student to harm, I am responsible for that action. I am not sure if there is a denifite answer if someone should or should not be allowed to train - the decision lies with the instructor to choose the odds of risk to which he exposes his students; students can also be a risk to themselves too.

Personally, I am adverse to allowing a student with HIV to train in general population aikido. Obviously, I would rather a student tell me since HIPPA would prevent me from telling anyone and I would seek alternative training methods. But, I would have to hear a pretty good argument for training before I would put the other students at risk of exposure to HIV. Our dojo has a history and prevalence for blood contact in our training either through existing open wounds, new wounds and wound/wound contact. Not to mention the lower risk blood/eye contact risk. And to be clear, I am also adverse to other transmittable diseases such as TB, Meningitis, Hepatitis B, Malaria, etc., in class.

As for Obesity... It depends on the level of obesity; I am not talking spare tire heavy, I am talking walking up stairs is a problem heavy. If the student posses a health risk I usually refer them to a weight specialist until they reach a point where they can train with little health risk. And again, my stance here covers obesity, heart disease, and other at-risk conditions that may result in injury from strenuous exercise.

I have never had to make a decision to allow a student with HIV to train. I did refer a morbidly obese student to undertake a weight reduction program before undergoing strenuous exercise (which included aikido). I did kick off a student with communicable Malaria. Oh, and we have a couple of students who work at Yerkes and are sometimes exposed to Herpes from ...er.. touching their monkeys (sorry guys); we keep on eye on them when they've been exposed.

I have these policies because I would rather be safe than sorry, I have never had a student have a heart attack on the mat. I have never had a student have a stroke on the mat. I have never have a student aquire a communicable disease on my mat. I aim to keep those figures at never. It is a conservative stance, but one I choose because I do not wish to be responsible for the death of a student or the participation in a student aquiring a life-altering commuicable disease; nor do I wish to put my students where they may feel responsible for above situations either.

Last edited by jonreading : 02-22-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:53 PM   #20
C. David Henderson
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
**** [The] shihan gets out and practices on the mat when it is time to practice. He'll walk the floor helping, but if things are going well he'll join in. In this case it wasn't during his "teaching in front of the class" that this occurred. As a matter of fact I was the uke for that demonstration. It was when we broke into small groups to practice when he joined in not liking what he saw the guy doing. As a matter of fact the sensei also took ukemi from the guy 4 times showing him the proper way to lay out. Then when it was sensei's turn to be nage, well, that's when the guy kept being a jerk about it. So it wasn't a case of sensei not picking the right uke for demonstration, I know how to take the ukemi properly and I know full well that when I'm twisted in that position to just wait.
I was already thinking this was sankyu's responsibility; these details make it a whole lot clearer to me.

Teaching shihan comes over and takes ukemi for sankyu to show him what he should be doing; sankyu apparently made no attempt to change what he was doing as a result.

Sankyu repeatedly ignored stated instructions from shihan to stay down until shihan releases joint lock.

When shihan gives a physical hint at how bad an idea sankyu's continued failure to follow instructions really is by letting sankyu experience joint lock, sankyu complains he experienced some pain in the lesson.

To me, this behavior is hard to fathom. If the price for this extended foolishness was minor discomfort, I think its because it wasn't a clash of egos. Well, maybe the crash of an ego, hitting the mat...

FWIW

David Henderson
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Old 02-22-2011, 12:55 PM   #21
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Re: uke getting hurt

Hi Jon,

Just for clarity sake HIPAA rules apply only to covered entities as defined by the Department of Health and Human Services,

http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa...ies/index.html

Martial Arts Dojos are not covered entities.

dps
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:20 PM   #22
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Re: uke getting hurt

Jon, thanks for clarifying. It's evident that you have a good understanding of the actual risks involved (as opposed to, for example, those who would exclude HIV+ people but apparently have no qualms about much more easily transmissible diseases such as hep B). I have practical reservations about the effectiveness of disease transmission by trying to exclude infected people from practice: even if all carriers are aware of their status (many are not) and all fully disclose their status to you (many will not), I still think that the practical approach is for non-infected people to be aware of the risks of disease transmission, and to assume responsibility for their own safety rather than expect that all infected people will go through life in some sort of self-imposed quarantine. Adopting a policy that excludes infected people enables the non-infected to continue to go through life, and blood-drawing aikido practice, in a state of dangerous ignorance.

BTW, I have never heard that malaria was transmissible between humans and would be interested to know more.
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Old 02-22-2011, 03:11 PM   #23
Janet Rosen
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Re: uke getting hurt

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
BTW, I have never heard that malaria was transmissible between humans and would be interested to know more.
Sorry for the thread drift...My understanding as public health nurse is the parasite is transmissible via mosquito, via blood transfusion, or via mother>fetus.
I note that blood transfusion is specified, rather than simple exposure to the blood or other bodily fluids more typical of the transmission of hepatitis, HIV, etc.

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Old 02-22-2011, 05:12 PM   #24
raul rodrigo
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Re: uke getting hurt

I think it's going too far to say that the instructor "let his ego get the better of him." The instructor did his job.

I've taught classes where uke struggles against a lock despite my warnings. At times, tapping uke's head with my free hand is enough reminder that I can do a lot more damage if I wish. At others, you have to let the lock deliver the message. No malice, but no slackening of the waza, either.
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:46 PM   #25
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Re: uke getting hurt

If someone hasn't learned that wrestling with a shihan is a bad idea by sankyu, when is he going to learn?

Part of ukemi is learning to protect yourself. That includes learning not to do stupid things. A little pain is a small price to pay if it saved him from a future shoulder dislocation.

Katherine
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