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Old 02-13-2011, 11:27 AM   #1
Hakuru
Dojo: Shuhari Budo-Kan Ardrossan
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Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Hi every one do you think Uke can make the Instructor look good
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Old 02-13-2011, 04:28 PM   #2
Mark Freeman
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Re: Being Uke

Quote:
Gary Stevenson wrote: View Post
Hi every one do you think Uke can make the Instructor look good
Hi Gary,

do you mean that uke can make the Instructor good looking?
or do you mean the uke can make the Instuctor look better than he really is?

Of course, but if the Instructor is demonstrating a point to the class, uke's role is not to make the Instuctor look good or bad, uke is there to provide the means to demonstrate the point.

Having said that the Instructor must be able to do what he is demonstrating, whether uke is compliant or not.

A good uke can make a bad instructor look awful if it was uke's mind to.

A good instructor will look good despite the uke.

regards

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-18-2011, 02:49 PM   #3
JCT53
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Can they? Yes. They often take large, over-dramatic air falls and let themselvs be off-balanced to easily. These (done with good timing) will make the Sensei look better. However, it is realitively impractical. This is because an instructor is there to teach others. So, if he needs an uke to "take a fall for him" then what is he really able to teach others? He will simply be imparting false confidence in them that will prove to be their undoing in a real life situation.
So, Can, yes. Should? No.

That is my two cents.

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment."
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Old 03-18-2011, 05:51 PM   #4
Hellis
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Of course a good uke can make a technique look more spectacular.
I was not one for taking my own flying uke everywhere with me, I would just use whoever was there, I would say " no matter how you breakfall you are going, how you do it is up to you.

In the late 1960s I was on TV with TK Chiba Sensei, he threw me and to my shame I over did the ukemi, Sensei growled in my ear " Mr Ewiss , I can throw you without your help "" never did that again.

Henry Ellis
Positive Aikido
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:03 PM   #5
ramenboy
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Of course a good uke can make a technique look more spectacular.
I was not one for taking my own flying uke everywhere with me, I would just use whoever was there, I would say " no matter how you breakfall you are going, how you do it is up to you.

In the late 1960s I was on TV with TK Chiba Sensei, he threw me and to my shame I over did the ukemi, Sensei growled in my ear " Mr Ewiss , I can throw you without your help "" never did that again.

Henry Ellis
Positive Aikido
http://aikido-books.blogspot.com/
Where is the 'like' button?

Well put!

practice hard
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:20 PM   #6
lbb
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

On the flip side, a bad uke can prevent a sensei from doing what he/she is trying to demonstrate...which just gives the sensei an opportunity to look good doing something completely different, but it does interfere with instruction :-D
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Old 03-20-2011, 06:56 PM   #7
Mark Mueller
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

On the flip side...an Instructor can start believing his/her own press when ukes start flying for them. That being said, I try to encourage student to watch both me and uke....one for the technique, one for the response.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:09 PM   #8
raul rodrigo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
On the flip side, a bad uke can prevent a sensei from doing what he/she is trying to demonstrate...which just gives the sensei an opportunity to look good doing something completely different, but it does interfere with instruction :-D
I had this happen to me just recently. Uke was anticipating the technique and moved ahead of me, hoping to roll. The trouble was I was doing something else, and the way he moved, I could have just hit him in the face and saved myself the trouble of the technique. (I tapped him on the face with two fingers, just to show the opening.) So to someone off the mat, it would have looked like I couldn't do the technique. So the overeager uke doesn't necessarily help the instructor or make him look good. But it does hinder the teaching. So I eventually had to change the uke so that I could show what I was trying to show.

Some years back with Kuribayashi of Hombu Dojo, I went down too soon as he was doing the waza. He said: "No, no, that's my job."
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:37 PM   #9
senshincenter
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Why is it that almost everyone will acknowledge that there are uke that are overacting to make instructors look good, etc., but there's not an equal amount of folks pointing out that the multitude of shihan out there are not as good as the masses may think they are????

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-20-2011, 09:09 PM   #10
raul rodrigo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Why is it that almost everyone will acknowledge that there are uke that are overacting to make instructors look good, etc., but there's not an equal amount of folks pointing out that the multitude of shihan out there are not as good as the masses may think they are????
Politeness?
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Old 03-20-2011, 10:25 PM   #11
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Politeness?

Okay, maybe not pointing things out to their faces or even talking behind their backs, but at least stop the worshiping and the following and conceding and the efforts to capitalize upon them and instead start making one's own way and doing things differently.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:30 AM   #12
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
Why is it that almost everyone will acknowledge that there are uke that are overacting to make instructors look good, etc., but there's not an equal amount of folks pointing out that the multitude of shihan out there are not as good as the masses may think they are????
DearDavid,
A multitude?Are you sure here?Maybe a couple but I think you are overstating here.How many do you say constitutes a multitude?
Cheers, Jo
Ps no names required.
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Old 03-21-2011, 07:15 AM   #13
lbb
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
DearDavid,
A multitude?Are you sure here?Maybe a couple but I think you are overstating here.How many do you say constitutes a multitude?
Cheers, Jo
Ps no names required.
I'd say that if you think there's a "multitude" of shihan, good bad or indifferent, then you need to get a dictionary and look up the meaning of "multitude".
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:33 AM   #14
senshincenter
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

How about an experiment then:

Do a youtube search for Aikido - look at shihan videos only. Pay attention to the All Japan Demo ones. Ask and answer if the uke in the video is meeting the criticism here. What number do we get? That number, that's what I call a multitude.

d

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:29 AM   #15
raul rodrigo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Many uke in the All Japan demo are doing the over-dramatic falls. And we're not talking Takeda/Watanabe Jedi waza. Just normal waza where people bail far too early. On the other hand, the ukes for shihan like Miyamoto, Kuribayashi, Osawa, and Yokota are doing their damnedest to stay connected to tori, and won't fall unless they have to.
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:04 PM   #16
grondahl
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

If uke really has to work to stay connected, isn´t that also what the op asked about?
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Old 03-21-2011, 03:41 PM   #17
Shany
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Everyone can resist to the teacher, they just tend not to because they don't want to reveal the teacher's true level.

A good stance and posture reflects a proper state of mind
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:11 PM   #18
Jonathan Guzzo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Uke should take appropriate ukemi for the technique that an instructor is demonstrating. Sometimes that's a great big fall. The only time I resist when I'm called up to be uke is when our instructor makes it clear that he or she is demonstrating the incorrect way of carrying off a technique that results in an opening or an opportunity for reversal.

That said, I think the most helpful thing one can do is to take clear ukemi. Demonstrate the safest and cleanest way to the mat for the rest of the class so that they not only see the technique demonstrated but also the proper way to stay connected to nage and the best way to protect oneself on the way down.
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Old 03-21-2011, 05:13 PM   #19
senshincenter
 
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

I'm not talking about resisting - I'm talking about over-acting, accentuating, self-generating, disconnecting, prematurely disengaging, etc., on uke's part.

And, by extension, I am simply following through with the logic of this thread: If we are ready to say there are a multitude of uke out there that do this, then we should have the gumption to say that that means there are a whole lot of shihan out there that are taking advantage of this. Yet, in reality, we never make that jump. We never see the logic through. We keep our critique to the uke, and we go get our booked stamped at the next seminar.

David M. Valadez
Visit our web site for articles and videos. Senshin Center - A Place for Traditional Martial Arts in Santa Barbara.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:04 PM   #20
Jonathan Guzzo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about resisting - I'm talking about over-acting, accentuating, self-generating, disconnecting, prematurely disengaging, etc., on uke's part.
.
Thanks. Those are great points, and I agree with you.

To me, they go to point number 2--uke should allow the instructor to demonstrate the technique and also concentrate on demonstrating rational, martially-sensible ukemi. The mistakes you're pointing out are the exact opposite of what I'm talking about.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:06 PM   #21
Jonathan Guzzo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Also, the proof is in the pudding. If you have never put your hands on someone, you can't really know if they're good. I myself have never struck or laid hands on a high ranking practitioner who has disappointed me, so I count myself lucky, if a little bruised.
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Old 03-21-2011, 06:36 PM   #22
Mark Freeman
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Shany Golan wrote: View Post
Everyone can resist to the teacher, they just tend not to because they don't want to reveal the teacher's true level.
Uke shouldn't resist the teacher unless specifically asked to. Any aikido teacher worth the title should be able to deal with resistance from uke with comparative ease. In my book, that is what aikido is for. You are correct, if a teacher can't deal with a resistant uke, that does reveal the teachers level. However, if uke resist a teacher who knows how to deal with them, they put themselves in a vunerable position. Resistance reduces uke's ability to stay truly connected to nage. A uke who is flexible, movable, focussed and connected, can be harder to throw than one who resist.

regards,

Mark

Success is having what you want. Happiness is wanting what you have.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:08 PM   #23
raul rodrigo
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
If uke really has to work to stay connected, isn´t that also what the op asked about?
Uke has to work to stay connected, not to make the teacher look good, but because it's the safe way to take the waza. In some lineages, if uke doesn't maintain the "live connection," tori will just close the distance and strike. Chiba and Miyamoto do that. If there is a live connection, then tori has something to work with. If uke is looking to bail out at the first opportunity, then there is no need to continue the waza. Uke has already given up his structure instead of forcing tori to take it.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:24 PM   #24
Ketsan
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
Gary Stevenson wrote: View Post
Hi every one do you think Uke can make the Instructor look good
No, it always ends up looking fake and if it looks fake then the automatic assumption is that it's fake because the instructor is fake.
Fancy ukemi that looks good is only possible when you're not being thrown.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:40 PM   #25
JO
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Re: Being Uke - Make Instructor Look Good?

Quote:
David Valadez wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about resisting - I'm talking about over-acting, accentuating, self-generating, disconnecting, prematurely disengaging, etc., on uke's part.

And, by extension, I am simply following through with the logic of this thread: If we are ready to say there are a multitude of uke out there that do this, then we should have the gumption to say that that means there are a whole lot of shihan out there that are taking advantage of this. Yet, in reality, we never make that jump. We never see the logic through. We keep our critique to the uke, and we go get our booked stamped at the next seminar.
Maybe we don't hang out with the same shihans. The shihans I've taken even a little ukemi from (Kanai, Yamada, Chiba, Berthiaume, Waite, Konigsberg, Doran, DiAnne) were all extremely solid and had no trouble handling me. They certainly weren't waiting for me to jump. A couple of them I've had the chance to attack fairly strongly and had my nearly 170 pounds tossed back pretty hard. One of the best compliments I received in my first years of training was having Donovan Waite compliment my ukemi after coming at him with everything I had and being bounced back with kokyu nage.

In a demonstration and especially when being used as an uke by the instructor, I think it is best to keep the ukemi clean and "stylized" in such a way that you help show what is being taught. My own instructors, I've actually trained with (such as in seminars or when they have taken turns teaching), in which case I've "played" a little more, even occasionally stoppping them in their tracks, but that's different from demonstrating a technique.

Jonathan Olson
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