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Old 06-03-2002, 09:55 PM   #26
Arianah
Dojo: Aikido of Norwalk
Location: CT
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Misogi-no-Gyo
I do believe that the typical aikidoka has a fairly deep misunderstanding between "KI" and Kokyu" talking about ki, but using examples of things actually done with Kokyu. For the record, after a Dozen years trying to decipher what Abe Sensei was talking about, I have good understanding, and a basic ability to use kokyu. However, when it comes to "Ki" I still am at the kindergarten level. I train, and continue to develop my own "working" definition of these two terms.
Hmmm . . . I always considered "breath power" to be an aspect of "ki power;" a part of the whole, if you will. (That is, in my very limited experience.) I'm interested to know where the separation occurs, in your opinion. If you would, what is an example of using kokyu as opposed to ki?

Quote:
Originally posted by AikiAlf
. . .treading a very deep pool and am bearly entering the kiddy side of it.
Sigh . . . I love metaphores!

Sarah (dipping her toe into the pool)

Out of clutter, find simplicity.
From discord, find harmony.
In the middle of difficulty, lies opportunity.
-Albert Einstein
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Old 06-03-2002, 10:59 PM   #27
Kat.C
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 212
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Re: The stomach lesson

Quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Baker
Although we don't do this in Aikido in the literal sense of the words, The Stomach lesson is a very harsh way to weed out the wanna be's from those who have a deeper commitment to studying martial arts.

Until now I had no reason at all to post in this thread, but in class tonight we learned nikkyo, so now I've just gotta ask: Why would you just punch someone in the stomach to test them when you could use nikkyo ?!!!

Kat

I find the aquisition of knowledge to be relatively easy, it is the application that is so difficult.
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Old 06-03-2002, 11:01 PM   #28
shihonage
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Re: Re: The stomach lesson

Quote:
Originally posted by Kat.C


Until now I had no reason at all to post in this thread, but in class tonight we learned nikkyo, so now I've just gotta ask: Why would you just punch someone in the stomach to test them when you could use nikkyo ?!!!
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Old 06-03-2002, 11:22 PM   #29
PeterR
 
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Dojo: Shodokan Honbu (Osaka)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arianah

Hmmm . . . I always considered "breath power" to be an aspect of "ki power;" a part of the whole, if you will. (That is, in my very limited experience.) I'm interested to know where the separation occurs, in your opinion. If you would, what is an example of using kokyu as opposed to ki?
This use of Ki as all encompassing is I feel part of the problem. Ki itself has a number of meanings even if you restrict them to the same kanji. We have spirit, energy, heart, and of course the more mystical sense. Breath power (kokyu ryoku) is a subset of power of focus which of course is different from the power of movement and not the more mystical Ki. Even if you were to say that Ki could mean all these things (energy, spirit and mysitcal force) and therefore the term when used covers all you have a problem in that interpretation usually focuses on one meaning alone. This is the source of the Luke Skywalker effect. I recently read a quote of Shioda sensei where he uses the term Ki in the context of energy. It was very clear, at least to me, that was what he was talking about yet if you are not used to placing words in context (very important in Japanese) you could go in another direction.

To answer the question - you could say that Kokyu Ryoku is an expression of energy (Ki) but you can not say that it is an expression of the more mystical Ki. Of course none of this matters if you show the right spirit (Ki) in your training.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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Old 06-04-2002, 07:49 AM   #30
tedward
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Do the shaolin munks not make a fortune touring with this sort of thing?

As for not seeing it in combat as impresive as it looks it still is not as intimidating as seeing a striker have their arm broken.
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:51 AM   #31
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
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many replies

AikiAlf wrote
Quote:
Ok, before someone flames me.. Rick Rowell Sensei (whom some of you have trained under, I know ) showed me this, not Saotome Sensei for whom I've got the greatest respect but can't claim for a teacher (our dojo is ASU BTW).
Sorry AikiAlf, for my misstatement.

Kat.C wrote
Quote:
Until now I had no reason at all to post in this thread, but in class tonight we learned nikkyo, so now I've just gotta ask: Why would you just punch someone in the stomach to test them when you could use nikkyo ?!!!
Kat.C - In the real test, first you do nikyo, then when they stand back up, you hit them in the stomach!


Paul Clark wrote
Quote:
It sounds to me that your sensei is using his belly like an airbag or cushion to some extent. He puffs out his belly to meet the coming punch, makes contact with it, then provides enough resistance, like a cushion, pillow, or airbag, as it deflates to decelerate the punch more slowly.
Paul: Although this sounds about right in theory, this is actually the opposite of what is occurring. The specific training teaches how to force the entire area to be as small and as tight as possible. Think about hitting an apple with your fist, as opposed to hitting a rock, or a large diamond. The visualization has more to do with a black hole (infinitesimally small and dense object) then a vehicle that expands rapidly.

Paul Clark also wrote
Quote:
The belly's cushioning ability would be enhanced if it could rely not only on its capacity to inflate and deflate, but also on the presence of a mass of resilient tissue at the point of impact ("cushion", "spare tire", take your pick) to aid in the deceleration of the fist. Those with less, err, "cushion" will have to be much more efficient with the inflate/deflate process to be successful.
Paul - I don't mean to pick on your theories. I do believe that you are interested in whatever experience other's have had in this area - scientifically speaking, of course. Having gone from about 125 pounds (after I lost a significant amount of weight practicing misogi) to 170 pounds in the last year. What I have noticed, is that given I am trying to make everything "small," the increased mass seems to get in the way, rather than promote my ability to produce kokyu. I do not do any sort of supplemental weight training, sit-ups, etc., and the only six-pack I have ever had was after practice, at the sushi bar. My point being that I do not feel that it is a function of "muscle" at least in the way that we tend to think that "strengthening it" may in fact server to promote kokyu in any way.

Ronmar wrote
Quote:
Are you really able to take a punch anywhere on your body and repel the puncher half way across the room? If so, please tell me how, without all the mystical magical stuff, so that I can try it for myself. If it is just a form of closing down the strike then please say so.
ronmar - No, I certainly don't make that claim in any fashion. Even if I could do that, I wouldn't announce it here. I could just see people lining up at intersections, or following me around hitting me all day and night... However, I have seen this ability in at least one other person. I chose to reply to your post to also say that in terms of the "mystical magical stuff" that you talk about, I don't think that if you have that type of feeling about it, that you would ever be able to learn these teachings. It is not that they are magical in any sense. However, when you have to pass through areas within yourself that you have erected as walls which protect you against what you feel may harm or kill you, you are clearly forced to confront issues that seem to be bigger than you are. This is a very emotional and spiritual pursuit. Having trained specifically in this area for over thirty years, I can tell you that the "tough guys" often are the ones who seem to shy away from this sort of thing. There is no "quick" way to learn it, nor "easy" path. If that were the case, we would all be masters of ourselves, and the universe. Last time I looked I only counted a handful of those...

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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Old 06-04-2002, 11:49 AM   #32
Paul Clark
Dojo: Yellow Springs Aikido
Location: Dayton, Ohio
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Shaun,


Quote:
Paul: Although this sounds about right in theory, this is actually the opposite of what is occurring. The specific training teaches how to force the entire area to be as small and as tight as possible. Think about hitting an apple with your fist, as opposed to hitting a rock, or a large diamond. The visualization has more to do with a black hole (infinitesimally small and dense object) then a vehicle that expands rapidly.
Way over my head, sorry. The physics still works, of that I'm confident, but you're probably talking about way too many variables for me to deal with in this forum.

Quote:
Paul - I don't mean to pick on your theories. I do believe that you are interested in whatever experience other's have had in this area - scientifically speaking, of course. Having gone from about 125 pounds (after I lost a significant amount of weight practicing misogi) to 170 pounds in the last year. What I have noticed, is that given I am trying to make everything "small," the increased mass seems to get in the way, rather than promote my ability to produce kokyu. I do not do any sort of supplemental weight training, sit-ups, etc., and the only six-pack I have ever had was after practice, at the sushi bar. My point being that I do not feel that it is a function of "muscle" at least in the way that we tend to think that "strengthening it" may in fact server to promote kokyu in any way.
No offense taken. Newton would not be offended either, they're his laws not mine, and he's dead.

Errr, umm, well, by "large mass of resilient tissue", I sort of meant the kind one gets from consuming a too many sixpacks at the sushi bar, not the kind that comes from doing a bunch of situps. In my original post, the cushion is a big soft belly that slows down the punch and dissipates the energy therein, not a hard, flat, gnarly set of abs that makes it bounce off. I guess, come to think of it, either will work.

Either way, I'm again in way over my head.

cheers
Paul
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Old 06-05-2002, 01:14 PM   #33
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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Stomach lesson to ???

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we seem to have gotten off the subject, and entered from practical to "what the hell is going on here?"

In a practical sense, the essence of repelling a punch in a magical force field is to absorb the energy and overcome the punch with an even stronger return of energy, much the same principal as returning the energy to your opponent in Aikido, but I suspect it also involves long term meditation, and ki practice in controling muscle, air, and mental conditioning to effect a return of this energy.

It reeks of the mysterious "one inch punch" demonstated by Bruce Lee in the 1960s, but it is no less very simular in its effect.

I have been away for a couple of weeks, so it was very interesting to see how the posts either met the subject or veered away into the hinterlands?

The purpose of the stomach lesson is to find out if you are able to overcome the shutdown response ... it is moderate compared to knockout, but it is supposed to be for clarity, not some macho be as tough as others mind set.

If you are familiar with pain, you understand your limits. If you are not, you give up.

It is that simple.

It is not feasable to allow the human body to continually to take pain in this manner. Hopefully, you learn how to avoid it, but if it should happen, you will be familiar enough with pain to overcome it if the need arises.

So, the stomach lesson not only becomes a morally wrentching test of consciousness, but a physical experience in the real world of life and confrontation. If we face the reality of these pains, and reach into our fiber of being, then we will ourselves to overcome and continue on with our lives.

I have a lot more to say about physical pain verses mental conditioning, but your Aikido practice will teach you this if you attain the right attitude without inflicting your personal altitude. ( altitude being the height you must fall to regain moral balance.)
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Old 06-05-2002, 01:59 PM   #34
Greg Jennings
Dojo: S&G BJJ
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I do have a little background in physics and mechanics...

Does anyone want to try their kokyu/ki against something that has a broader power band than a human punch?

I've got a $100 in my pocket right now.

After you sign the release forms, if I can't fold you up and put you on the ground in one stroke, I'll give you that $100. If you do fold up and/or hit the ground, throw up, pee blood, etc., you give me $100.

Sincerely,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-05-2002, 05:36 PM   #35
Bruce Baker
Dojo: LBI Aikikai/LBI ,NJ
Location: Barnegaat, NJ
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Going to extremes

I am not impressed with many of your posts as they invariably forget many of the tenents of Aikido's peaceful mindset in the face of incredible force or overbearing odds.

How you percieve the lessons of violence, affect the lives of others by your ability to interact and change violence, and try to attain some ability of seeing where the present lessons are leading to ... well ... it doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe and postulate solutions to life's problems. It might take a little experience and some living, but observing the world around you is about the easiest way to learn.

The difficulty of finding the solution that will do more good than bad ... now there is the rub.

When you become able to deal with the difficulty of violence with a martial art, like aikido, then the stress of that situation is relieved.

Finding the least violent way to deal with violence is the basic goal of learning Aikido, or am I missing the point of the entire experience?

There may exist other goals, for individuals, but on the whole most people who practice Aikido have a goal of self confidence for learning Aikido.

This I bet you can't do this, or that is impossible line of questioning is totally lewdacriss. So what? Your goal of Aikido practice is neutralized by weapons of mass destruction. You know. Hand guns, grenades, Atom bombs?

Anyway, for Aikido's effectiveness, we are talking about a distance of less than ten feet from our opponent, and somehow calling upon our internal thoughtfull self to connect to the functioning body we must live in until the day we die.

So ... reality check.

How do you respond to nearshutdown of the functioning body?

Do you practice internally by meditation or with mental exercises to maintain control of conciousness over pain?
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Old 06-05-2002, 06:49 PM   #36
SeiserL
 
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Actually, I saw a documentary on the Learning Channel that covered a martial art that specificcaly trained to take full force hits on vulnerable parts of the body. Very impressive body-mind control, but I kept thinking to myself "run, run, runaway."

I guess if you want to learn any parlor trick, its your right. For me, the get-off-the-line-enter-and-blend idea suits this old body just fine.

Until again,

Lynn

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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