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Old 02-10-2011, 02:13 PM   #51
lbb
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
If Tenyu signed an agreement not to teach his senei's art then his sensei should sue his ass.
If his sensei doesn't then the matter should be dropped.
That argument only makes sense in a world where only legal contracts matter, and only courts can be used to resolve disagreements. People make agreements every day that aren't legally binding. They are based instead on trust and integrity. When one of these agreements is breached, "su[ing] his ass" is not an option. That doesn't mean, however, that the matter should be dropped.
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:15 PM   #52
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Read Sensei says that Tenyu agreed not to teach without permission, both before being taught the material, and while separating from the dojo.
Tenyu agreed to not to teach Aikibojutsu

Quote:
Tenyu does not appear to dispute that, but simply claims to be teaching a new style. Objective observers do not see anything particularly new, however.
I don't see any objective observers here.

Quote:
I don't think you need to go back to feudal Japan to decide how to handle the situation. Modern Western ethics work just fine.
It wasn't me the one who brought the feudal Japan arts comparison. In fact I dispute the appropiateness of the comparison. Were we in feudal Japan probably we would be saying "this is how it works" -of course if Tenyu staff method delivers- As I said before, he should have pointed to a tengu/kami/yamabushi as the source of his Aikibodo and stand his ground: challengers are welcome.

If you want western ethics applied, that's fine. Both systems (feudal japanese & modern western) applied at the same time is an ethical mess.

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Old 02-10-2011, 02:18 PM   #53
lbb
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Tenyu agreed to not to teach Aikibojutsu
Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?

Last edited by akiy : 02-10-2011 at 02:22 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:28 PM   #54
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?
As a westerner I'd say it could be (a) a case of plagiarism or (b) a case of intertextuality.

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Old 02-10-2011, 04:01 PM   #55
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
As a westerner I'd say it could be ... a case of intertextuality.
Sorry, man, that's not my thing -- not that there's anything wrong with that ...

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:03 PM   #56
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Oh, come now, Demetrio. Isn't this just a wee bit disingenuous? If I publish a novel called "The Vinci Code", and the contents are99% identical with the contents of "The Da Vinci Code", is that legitimate as far as you're concerned?
I never published a book, the only thing I ever did was post on Aikiweb using a few scientific words that Tom used in class lectures and in his book. There's video recording of an old Aikibojitsu class where I am teaching both Tom and Robert the Tengu Short Form, not to mention other forms. The Umi Kata formerly known as the Granite Kata were all forms I either created myself or were ‘stolen' from O Sensei. The only form Tom created was the very first move the Precessional Yokomen. Tom has a different Granite Short Form that I don't practice anymore.

I never signed a contract of any sort. I was born and raised in Japan, loyalty is ingrained in my blood. I never thought I would have to leave in order to maintain my integrity.

There are many negative comments in this thread completely and naturally ignorant of the history, but this is a public forum and that's to be expected. I appreciate the supportive comments made by others and Jun's call for discretion.

After all this, I still care about you Tom. You have a lot more than I do right now - a successful school with a great crew of teachers and students. I really want the best for you even if you don't wish the same for me.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:16 PM   #57
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Anyone interested in learning staffwork should know that 90% of my practice was done alone from the very first week of class over three years ago. I mention this because I believe this should be the norm for anyone who seriously becomes interested in learning. It's based on independent study unlike the average Aikido methods of transmission where an instructor is always present.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:31 PM   #58
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post

This is Budo. One of the primary elements in Budo is personal honor. You make a promise not to teach without permission and you keep it. Even if it is no longer convenient for you. That was one of the terms of being accepted as a student. That promise doesn't go away if you leave the dojo of your own free will. It doesn't go away if you are thrown out of the dojo. It doesn't go away unless the person you made the promise to releases you from that promise.

Of course, the training you received doesn't simply disappear. If you keep training, perhaps, after many years, what you are doing does morph into something completely yours. At that point it might make sense to give it a new name and be the Founder of some new art. But i this case we are talking about a 4th Kyu. He has not devoted years and years to his own development of this style after leaving his Teacher. He simply gave it a new name and went down the street and started trying to teach. This is in direct violation of his promise not to do so. It is unethical and dishonorable. It's no different than taking someone else's intellectual property as ones own.

In all the cases of folks violating their promises by teaching, there are always people who do not think there is anything worn with it. There are folks who think anything one can download should be free. That any DVD can be copied and freely distributed. No one should be told they can't do whatever they want to do. After all, it's a free country and who is anyone to tell anyone else what to do?

But as far as I am concerned, this stuff matters. You promised you wouldn't so you don't. This is the overriding issue, integrity. Then you can get to the issue of 4th kyus "founding" their own styles. Next thing you see is membership in the World Sokeship Council with a bunch of fake sokes certifying other fake sokes, and blah, blah, blah.
Hello,

I have to go with George here, but then again I am one of those koryu guys who take little ol' unimportant things like personal integrity seriously. ( How old fashioned and romantic of me! )

Mr Tenyu....Could you please enlighten us with your age and rank under Tom before you left his dojo?


Toby Threadgill / TSYR

Last edited by Toby Threadgill : 02-10-2011 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:39 PM   #59
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

I didn't mention this explicitly above, but my reason for leaving does not at all imply that I don't think others can learn with full integrity of their own under Tom. Quite the opposite, I actually encourage it! I really believe in the power of Aikido, and with 7 billion people on earth even a thousand teachers of Staff aren't enough let alone the handful that exist using infinite-bound strikes within the Aikido community.

Last edited by Tenyu : 02-10-2011 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:48 PM   #60
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hello,

I have to go with George here, but then again I am one of those koryu guys who take little ol' unimportant things like personal integrity seriously. ( How old fashioned and romantic of me! )

Mr Tenyu....Could you please enlighten us with your age and rank under Tom before you left his dojo?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Hi Toby,

I was given unofficial 1st dan(the hakama) somewhere after six months of training. I was give formal 1st dan after another year of training when I submitted a four page transcription of a 50 second clip of O Sensei's takemusu staff. My rank was removed after the incident with the parent.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-10-2011, 05:56 PM   #61
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Hi Toby,

I was given unofficial 1st dan(the hakama) somewhere after six months of training. I was give formal 1st dan after another year of training when I submitted a four page transcription of a 50 second clip of O Sensei's takemusu staff. My rank was removed after the incident with the parent.

-Tenyu
Tenyu,

I don't know you or Tom. I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?

And

Age, please?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:50 PM   #62
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?
Toby, that was mentioned before in the thread.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:43 PM   #63
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Tenyu,

I don't know you or Tom. I certainly don't know the context of "the incident with the parent." Perhaps the context of that statement is in order?

And

Age, please?

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Toby,

I'll be 30 very shortly. Yes the youtube page says I am already. My bank accounts have been hacked multiple times and the bank representatives have told me that nothing you put online is ever secure including encrypted credit card transactions. Last thing I want to do is make identity theft easier after all the trouble I've been through.

I really like your most recent video on youtube btw.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:47 PM   #64
graham christian
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Hi.I too believe the important point is honour and integrity. However I disagree with the implication that Tenyu, because of that one situation has no integrity or honour.
Once again some differenciation is needed here.
Being open and honest about his history shows integrity. Being open and honest with the fact he made mistakes he regrets is once again honourable. Validating and even encouraging others to learn from his past teacher is indeed a show of high integrity.
Now as to the basic situation of being held by the rule of not teaching what he learned that is a matter of integrity if that is the scene however that doesn't mean it's just black and white. You can still find a solution which is both ideal and maintains integrity.
Tenyu, I'm sure you still thoroughly respect your past teacher and I know of no teacher on earth who doesn't, underneath their upset or feeling of betrayal, want the best for their past students.
You could both get together and with non resistance transcend the emotional upset, the past, iron out the disagreements and search out a solution which suits both parties. A win/win situation for both parties concerned an a true expression of Aiki and non resistance. Feel free to ignore this if you disagree for I only offer it as a possibility and have been moved to do so.
Good luck in the future.
Regards.G.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:56 PM   #65
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I'll be 30 very shortly. Yes the youtube page says I am already. My bank accounts have been hacked multiple times and the bank representatives have told me that nothing you put online is ever secure including encrypted credit card transactions. Last thing I want to do is make identity theft easier after all the trouble I've been through.
Hacking of bank accounts and identity theft are different things. A lot of people, myself included, have had their bank accounts "hacked", so called, due to careless handling of information by a bank or transaction processor. It sucks, but you shouldn't be out any money, you get a new account (which has no special vulnerability), and you move on. Typically in these cases, your personal information is never exposed. Likewise, no one is going to be able to steal your identity merely by knowing your age. Knowing your date of birth in combination with other personal information might make it possible, but merely knowing your age...no.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:57 PM   #66
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
The title of the thread also made me wonder: has "internal" become the "user friendly" or "cutting edge" or "breakthrough" or "world class" of the martial arts world: an obligatory but meaningless advertising buzzword?
I know my work is internal because the first year and a half doing stick was almost entirely external. I did have a lot of experience using different qualities of internal action with my previous training in karate, sports, and freestyle dance but I had not figured out yet how to apply it to my staffwork. When I finally figured it out ALL of my Aikido changed in a matter of days. It's pretty much impossible for me to do external now.
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:01 PM   #67
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Honesty, Trust and Integrity are the fundamental underpinnings of any successful social endeavor. The failure of a social endeavor typically can be traced to a a lack of honesty, trust and integrity. These fundamentals can not be written off as being culturally-based, nor can these fundamentals be dismissed because we have our own human failings that we must own up to.

Tenyu has talked about his being a student of Sensei Reed. He then talked about teaching Sensei kata? He talked about not signing a contract, as though the verbal agreement does not have any meaning or obligation.

Regardless of how Tenyu has "modified" what he learned from Sensei Reed, the genesis of his knowledge clearly came from his teacher. The learning of that knowledge took place with the explicit understanding that he could not teach it without his teacher's permission. This obligation does not vanish simply because this person has been expelled from an organization for mistakes of that person's own doing.

From my vantage point, I see a student who put a little time in with an accomplished teacher. The student was accepted by the teacher based upon certain explicit understandings; one of which being that he could not teach what he was taught without his teacher's explicit permission. The student made some mistakes and was expelled from the organization. Some time later, this student has repackaged what was learned from his teacher as being new and unique. In doing so, this student broke the agreement that was the basis under which he was allowed to learn. This student is now trying to say that he taught his teacher some things; his teacher took what he did from other sources, and that he really wasn't doing what he was taught in the first place.

Sounds to me like Tenyu has at a minimum broken the trust that was implicit in his becoming a student under his teacher. He is trying to justify his breach of oral contract by saying that it was not in writing and his teacher "stole" stuff from others. This is nothing less than trying to rationalize a degree of lack of integrity. The claim that he taught his teacher some kata or components, certainly brings into question truthfulness.

In the good old days, issues like this in a martial context could be life & death issues, which is why koryu guys take this stuff so very, very seriously. Breaches in honesty, trust and integrity are just as important, even though these issues are not ones of life & death in this situation. An unfortunate burden rests with Tenyu, which cannot be written off as not knowing the "full history." Based upon what he and his teacher have written, he has done nothing to alleviate that burden (in my own opinion). That is not a good way to start off on a new endeavor.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-10-2011, 08:57 PM   #68
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Marc,

I was accused of plagiarizing. I have video proof that is not the case. You therefore now accuse me, someone you don't know, as a liar - ad hom.

I know many people will discriminate me for my young age, I fully expect it. I have no problem with it. Many are not afraid to use their own eyes to see instead of seeing what the Aikiweb hierarchy instructs them to be seeing. These are the people I want to attract. The thing with the staff, one's Aikido becomes completely transparent. I know it's an intimidating thing 'to be naked' especially if others are watching but that is the very first step to learning. The earth is in serious trouble right now, we are at the precipice of the consequences of an unprecedented, almost unfathomable overshoot of the earth's carrying capacity. This is an ecological fact that all of us will be dealing with in the very near future. What we're seeing in Egypt is not caused simply by a corrupt regime although Mubarak has never operated to the benefit of the people. Aikido's about waking up, and that's something we all need to do.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:33 PM   #69
Toby Threadgill
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

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John Thomas Read wrote: View Post
The precipitating event leading to his expulsion was Tenyu deciding to berate a parent in front of their child while acting as assistant kids' class instructor.

&

Tenyu was allowed into the Instructor development program in Aikibojitsu with open arms, and was freely taught based upon a very clear agreement that he not teach Aikibojitsu without permission (without an Instructor's Certificate.) He has broken that agreement, and I am writing to ensure that people know what he is really doing.
Hello,

Well....This communication from Mr Reid is good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned Tenyu is hereby advised to never darken my doorstep. I do not suffer foolishness and that is exactly what I perceive to be the case here.

Mr Christian,

In my experience, Tenyu being "honest" about his training history is little more than thinly disquised marketing. If not for Tenyu's training history under Mr Reid, he would be no more worthy of comment than any other among the ubiquitous minons of mediocre budoka believing themselves qualified to start their own system of budo. Remember this guy is not some 30 year exponent of budo holding a shihan level license, but a 4th kyu in Karate & Aikido. Also remember that he was essentially issued hamon for demonstrating very poor conduct in relation to teaching duties during a childrens class in his teachers dojo. That is pretty damning stuff.

Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:37 PM   #70
Janet Rosen
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.
Couldn't have possibly said it better myself.

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Old 02-11-2011, 02:45 AM   #71
graham christian
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Toby Threadgill wrote: View Post
Hello,

Well....This communication from Mr Reid is good enough for me. As far as I'm concerned Tenyu is hereby advised to never darken my doorstep. I do not suffer foolishness and that is exactly what I perceive to be the case here.

Mr Christian,

In my experience, Tenyu being "honest" about his training history is little more than thinly disquised marketing. If not for Tenyu's training history under Mr Reid, he would be no more worthy of comment than any other among the ubiquitous minons of mediocre budoka believing themselves qualified to start their own system of budo. Remember this guy is not some 30 year exponent of budo holding a shihan level license, but a 4th kyu in Karate & Aikido. Also remember that he was essentially issued hamon for demonstrating very poor conduct in relation to teaching duties during a childrens class in his teachers dojo. That is pretty damning stuff.

Instead of taking a cold hard introspective look in the mirror and seeking to start anew under a new sensei/role model, he comes here with a compromised reputation and dubious technical skills to publicly announce that he has attained a level of expertise commensurate with founding his own school of budo. Did he really think that making such a declaration among instructors with decades of experience would not result in some pretty intense scrutiny? If he did not, he further demonstrates why his present course is the wrong one.

Toby Threadgill / TSYR
Mr. Toby.
Tenyu did and does say quite open and honestly that he is or was officially 4th kyu not so?
I understand what Marc says in his last paragraph and also I don't agree with someone saying things like his teacher 'stole' blah blah. This does indeed show a lack of respect and integrity there.
However that's no reason for charachter assasination by you, me or anyone else for that matter if you want to talk about integrity and honour for doing so means to me you or whoever has been led into saying such.
People are not stupid, in fact they are more suspicious than not and I'm sure they can see a young person, or as you point out a person of a small number of years of experience, they can see he is 4th kyu, they can see he has been a banned from a school, they can see he has decided to start his own school, they can see he still has an issue with his past teacher that should be sorted out if possible. Therefore they can make their own conclusions.
Still, no reason to put him down if we're talking honour and budo.
He who talks about honour and budo should act it and not allow the complaining mind based on fears and doubts and sometimes even jealousies any expression at all. Such is my view. Live it or don't mention honour and integrity or else we are ourselves a lie, an empty barrel making lots of noise.
Regards. G.
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:54 AM   #72
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Marc,

I was accused of plagiarizing. I have video proof that is not the case. You therefore now accuse me, someone you don't know, as a liar - ad hom.

I know many people will discriminate me for my young age, I fully expect it. I have no problem with it. Many are not afraid to use their own eyes to see instead of seeing what the Aikiweb hierarchy instructs them to be seeing. These are the people I want to attract. The thing with the staff, one's Aikido becomes completely transparent. I know it's an intimidating thing 'to be naked' especially if others are watching but that is the very first step to learning. The earth is in serious trouble right now, we are at the precipice of the consequences of an unprecedented, almost unfathomable overshoot of the earth's carrying capacity. This is an ecological fact that all of us will be dealing with in the very near future. What we're seeing in Egypt is not caused simply by a corrupt regime although Mubarak has never operated to the benefit of the people. Aikido's about waking up, and that's something we all need to do.

-Tenyu
Tenyu:

Your teacher was starting to train in Aikido and Aikibojutsu before you were even a proverbial itch in your parents' pants and you would like us to believe that your "video evidence" proves that you were teaching your teacher moves with the bo? You would then like us to equate your situation with what is going on in Egypt?

I seriously think that you would benefit from stepping back from your self-imposed precipice and listen deeply to the words of Mr. Threadgill. If you continue on this path that you are on, you will find many, many potential doors closed to you in your pursuit of training in martial arts.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:05 AM   #73
Cliff Judge
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Guys,

When people who have very high opinions of themselves but are terrified of examining themselves critically are fed a lot of comfy cotton-candy feedback, and encouraged to not look at that scary old face in the mirror, you can sometimes get a good politician or stage performer, but you never ever get a good martial artist.

Folks saying things like "oh this is just like O Sensei and Bruce Lee" or "who are we to judge him, leave it up to the courts to decide" should really consider how harmful what you are saying could be to somebody like Tenyu whose ego is engaged in a running battle with reality.

If you are trying to show compassion to the guy, you aren't really doing it by comparing him to Jigoro Kano and helping him quibble around his recent failures of character and integrity. He's got an opportunity to grow here but the sugarcoating is going to work against him.
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Old 02-11-2011, 08:19 AM   #74
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

There are some interesting questions here. Like when is it possible to start your own style. The naming of a style too. Maybe they deserve their own threads.

Tenyu I don't want only to be negative but I don't think your first post was clear enough. I hope that was by accident. And I think you are now being a little defensive. Your teacher is not happy about what has happened and it is your responsibility to find a way. You could ask him sincerely what he would like you to do. To start with I think you should tell him you will not do the katas that he developed and I also think you should respect his wishes about naming.

The situation with the parent concerns me too. Do you know why it happened and can you guarantee it won't happen again. I'm not asking you to reply - I too am agreeing with Toby Threadgill's point about a hard look in the mirror. It's not a shameful thing if you're not yet ready to teach. If that's the way it works out just do your best to become ready.

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Old 02-11-2011, 08:48 AM   #75
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,549
United_States
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

In my craft it took me years of very hard work to get some people to even start to share with me. Because of guys like him. There are *many* things I was eventually told, in confidence, after a lot of hard work to *earn* that confidence. It took years because of guys like him. And yet I still get guys who *tell* me that I *should* share everything because the world is entitled to everything no matter how little they work, no matter how little effort they put out, no matter ... No matter... Guys like him.

Pffft. Gimme, gimme, gimme. They want it all right now. Their word is just another bargaining chip. But it is worthless.

The attitude sucks.

Color me disgusted with the world.

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