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Old 02-16-2011, 08:11 AM   #251
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi David,

What makes you think one version is more 'true' than the other?
Demetrio,

I understand that Wong was at work the next day as a waiter, running around a restaurant carrying trays of food and that the only sign he'd been in a fight was a small cut over his eye where Lee tried to jam him in they eye instead of shaking his hand. Hardly sounds like someone who had been beaten severely by Bruce Lee. At the very least, it seems like the Lee's far exaggerated both Bruce's performance and Wong's "loss".

Also, if Bruce did so well in the fight, why was he so obsessively driven to change his style completely?

And, while Lee had a good bit of Wing Chun, that was his only martial arts background, from one teacher (or two). Wong, meanwhile, had had years of training in Northern Shaolin, bagua, xing yi and taiji (though I think he only got into the higher levels of internals some years later). I think Bruce found Wong very hard to hit and exhausted himself over something more like 20 minutes (rather than three minutes) of punching air and dodging the counter strikes. Also, I do believe that Wong was known for his kicks and did not use them in this fight.

And there are other things in Lee's account that just don't ring true. They claim that Bruce was challenged by Wong for teaching foreigners, but he was not the only one teaching foreigners, by any means. And what sounds more true to me was that Bruce got on TV and said basically, "I can beat anyone in the SF Bay area." So Wong said, "Hey, I'll give it a try."

Also, look how they portrayed Wong in the movie "Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story." They made him out as much bigger, older, far more powerful than Bruce and they attributed Bruce's long-lasting back injury (from stupid weight lifting) to Wong's sneak attack, kicking Bruce in the back after Bruce had thoroughly beaten him.

Last, look at the "training" Bruce put himself through after that encounter. He basically got rid of his wing chun and put together that JKD system based on books and movies. He did work with the likes of Gene LeBell, but his own PR indicates that he had seriously studied the full range of Chinese martial arts and had discarded everything useless and incorporated all the good stuff into his own art.

In short, the Bruce Lee camp has been known for many extreme exaggerations and Bruce was known to have a very hot temper and a certain lack of self-control. Add to this his strange death at age 32 and I just don't find much to admire about him.

Add this all up against the accounts I posted earlier and I just don't see any reason to believe any of the Lee accounts at all.

That's how I see it.

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:18 AM   #252
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Demetrio,

I understand that Wong was at work the next day as a waiter, running around a restaurant carrying trays of food and that the only sign he'd been in a fight was a small cut over his eye where Lee tried to jam him in they eye instead of shaking his hand. Hardly sounds like someone who had been beaten severely by Bruce Lee. At the very least, it seems like the Lee's far exaggerated both Bruce's performance and Wong's "loss".

Also, if Bruce did so well in the fight, why was he so obsessively driven to change his style completely?

And, while Lee had a good bit of Wing Chun, that was his only martial arts background, from one teacher (or two). Wong, meanwhile, had had years of training in Northern Shaolin, bagua, xing yi and taiji (though I think he only got into the higher levels of internals some years later). I think Bruce found Wong very hard to hit and exhausted himself over something more like 20 minutes (rather than three minutes) of punching air and dodging the counter strikes. Also, I do believe that Wong was known for his kicks and did not use them in this fight.

And there are other things in Lee's account that just don't ring true. They claim that Bruce was challenged by Wong for teaching foreigners, but he was not the only one teaching foreigners, by any means. And what sounds more true to me was that Bruce got on TV and said basically, "I can beat anyone in the SF Bay area." So Wong said, "Hey, I'll give it a try."

Also, look how they portrayed Wong in the movie "Dragon: the Bruce Lee Story." They made him out as much bigger, older, far more powerful than Bruce and they attributed Bruce's long-lasting back injury (from stupid weight lifting) to Wong's sneak attack, kicking Bruce in the back after Bruce had thoroughly beaten him.

Last, look at the "training" Bruce put himself through after that encounter. He basically got rid of his wing chun and put together that JKD system based on books and movies. He did work with the likes of Gene LeBell, but his own PR indicates that he had seriously studied the full range of Chinese martial arts and had discarded everything useless and incorporated all the good stuff into his own art.

In short, the Bruce Lee camp has been known for many extreme exaggerations and Bruce was known to have a very hot temper and a certain lack of self-control. Add to this his strange death at age 32 and I just don't find much to admire about him.

Add this all up against the accounts I posted earlier and I just don't see any reason to believe any of the Lee accounts at all.

That's how I see it.

Thanks.

David
Amen. I was never a fan of Bruce Lee, never wore a Bruce Lee shirt, and always thought he was overhyped as a martial artist. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say David.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:27 AM   #253
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

And Tenyu should definitely quit while he's behind.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:57 AM   #254
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Amen. I was never a fan of Bruce Lee, never wore a Bruce Lee shirt, and always thought he was overhyped as a martial artist. Thanks for saying what I wanted to say David.
Don't get me wrong. I do like certain things about Bruce Lee. His portrayal of Kato on The Green Hornet when I was about 11 years old really inspired me to learn martial arts. I went to a Halloween party as Kato and started kicking all the time.

I liked what Jackie Chan said about him. Bruce inspired Jackie to aim to affect every person in the world, to really reach outside himself and have no limits. Of course, while that can be very good....it's not always so.

I consider Bruce a tragic figure and not someone to emulate as a martial artist.

And for those who would compare Tenyu's "new style" to be like Bruce's founding of his own style, I should think that's a better warning than an example.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2011, 09:10 AM   #255
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Hi David,

That was a good explanation. Thanks.

I'm a bit younger than you so the Bruce Lee craze was over when I was a teenager, and I always enjoyed more the Kato portrayal in the Pink Panther movies than the Green Hornet series.

Regards

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Old 02-16-2011, 05:11 PM   #256
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Cliff Judge wrote: View Post
end global warming
http://svs.gsfc.nasa.gov/vis/a000000...ates_30fps.m4v
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:16 PM   #257
kewms
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

First rule of holes: When you're in one, quit digging.

Katherine
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Old 02-16-2011, 05:24 PM   #258
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
First rule of holes: When you're in one, quit digging.

Katherine
Katherine:

You are making some assumptions about a person:
1) Common Sense
2) Social Awareness
3) Not Too Narcissistic

That is just a couple of them and I am not sure that they apply in this situation.

Marc Abrams
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Old 02-16-2011, 06:52 PM   #259
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Hi David,

That was a good explanation. Thanks.

I'm a bit younger than you so the Bruce Lee craze was over when I was a teenager, and I always enjoyed more the Kato portrayal in the Pink Panther movies than the Green Hornet series.

Regards
Kato! Do not attack me now, Kato!

Some of the funnier scenes on film.

Thanks for that reminder!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:26 PM   #260
Marc Abrams
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Kato! Do not attack me now, Kato!

Some of the funnier scenes on film.

Thanks for that reminder!

David
David:

Glad you're back! Time outs are a fun, ain't they?

marc abrams
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Old 02-16-2011, 08:58 PM   #261
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
David:

Glad you're back! Time outs are a fun, ain't they?
Not as much fun as trying to avoid Kato after a hard day's work, but....

Gee. I can't think of anything....

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-17-2011, 05:18 PM   #262
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

The original PO link in the OP is now defunct.

Here is an excellent 18 minute overview of energy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwNgNyiXPLk
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Old 02-17-2011, 06:09 PM   #263
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

http://www.thenation.com/video/15763...conomic-growth

http://www.thenation.com/video/15800...llenge-we-face
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Old 02-17-2011, 09:23 PM   #264
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Pictures of my uncle and me.



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Old 02-18-2011, 06:14 AM   #265
oisin bourke
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Tenyu,

What would your uncle think of your actions regarding your former teacher?
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:08 AM   #266
Diana Frese
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Dear Tenyu,

I have read a few posts during an extremely busy time for my husband and myself, job wise and home wise, so decided to just read your OP and then later I plan to read thru the thread a little at a time and so comprehend more.

What struck my interest at first was the mention of the oil crisis. We know how important the Japanese baths are, I'm sure they still are, though this was 1974 that came to my mind, although my family is very concerned now with the cost of heating our own home, We have been greatly helped by fallen trees from "Mother Nature" although we miss the trees.

With the "oil shock" back then, the baths opened an hour later, which made it much harder for people who worked evenings and nights.

They might have closed earlier,also, if I remember correctly. You might want to study if there are any Japanese correlaries that would be useful here, although public ofuro don't seem to be practical in the West, hot tubs are mostly private!

Also the cost to the environment of electric vis a vis central heating, in different climate zones in the U.S I remember Tokyo, which didn't seem to be as cold as New England with the kotatsu heated table with blanket to warm the feet, and trying to curl up under it when it got cold. Hard for a tall person...

I hope someday you can have a reconciliation with your teacher, but in the meantime I noticed pictures of your uncle, which show he is a martial artist. I think posting his pictures shows a great love, and maybe thru him you can solve your problem in some way.

On the merit of your description of the kata alone, the suitability for all types of people is extremely valuable these days.( I will watch it when I have a chance, but we only have the slow dial up with its long stops and short starts. then sometimes a video will replay faster) We all need mental, physical and spiritual stability in these turbulent times.

Sorry to be writing a bit old fashioned, but I know this thread contains delicate issues and I'm trying to be cautious. I will continue to read in it.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:54 PM   #267
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
Pictures of my uncle and me.

Quite an impressive looking man.

Why didn't you stay with him and inherit his system?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:55 PM   #268
mathewjgano
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Something that strikes me as odd about this thread is the lack of discussion about approach to aikido or staff. Given the political aspects brought up here I can understand it to a degree, but I don't see how peak oil, etc. are relevant to "non-aikido martial traditions," or even aikido martial traditions. I'm also curious about the point behind posting pictures...other than possibly to show pre-existing martial experience?
I'm not trying to be negative here. It just strikes me as a little odd and my curiosity has got the better of me (I'm putting out my impressions in order to have them put in check where others see fit to do so).
I'm also hoping to spark conversation about aiki and staff. I can't claim much, if anything, on the "internal" aspects, but what I have experienced certainly points to the power of weapons training in developing such qualities. I remember a small leap occuring after I began really focusing on ken and jo work, particularly when I began looking at each "part" as one long continuation of cut(s).
At any rate, I'd like to hear more about Tenyu's understanding of staffwork and/or aiki, since that seems to be at the heart of the thread.
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-18-2011 at 01:59 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:12 PM   #269
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Oisin Bourke wrote: View Post
Tenyu,

What would your uncle think of your actions regarding your former teacher?
Oisin,

I suggest you reread this thread because I've made myself very clear on the matter already. Many people have continued to make comments while only being aware of 3% of the facts. It's ridiculous to give advice to anyone in such a position. My former relationship with Tom is private.

-Tenyu
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:28 PM   #270
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Quite an impressive looking man.

Why didn't you stay with him and inherit his system?

David
His dojo's in my family's small hometown of Miyako. I never felt I needed to move there because he referred us to Kaicho and since then I've been doing Aikido.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:37 PM   #271
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
Something that strikes me as odd about this thread is the lack of discussion about approach to aikido or staff. Given the political aspects brought up here I can understand it to a degree, but I don't see how peak oil, etc. are relevant to "non-aikido martial traditions," or even aikido martial traditions. I'm also curious about the point behind posting pictures...other than possibly to show pre-existing martial experience?
I'm not trying to be negative here. It just strikes me as a little odd and my curiosity has got the better of me (I'm putting out my impressions in order to have them put in check where others see fit to do so).
I'm also hoping to spark conversation about aiki and staff. I can't claim much, if anything, on the "internal" aspects, but what I have experienced certainly points to the power of weapons training in developing such qualities. I remember a small leap occuring after I began really focusing on ken and jo work, particularly when I began looking at each "part" as one long continuation of cut(s).
At any rate, I'd like to hear more about Tenyu's understanding of staffwork and/or aiki, since that seems to be at the heart of the thread.
Take care,
Matt
Matt,

I'm using this platform to inform people about peak oil because it's something that'll affect everyone's lives in the near future yet almost no one knows of it. The house is on fire and I'm giving the opportunity for people to find out about it if they want to.

I could talk all day about Aikido but that wouldn't be efficient. Is there anything you'd like to know specifically about the staff or Aikido in general?

-Tenyu
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:06 PM   #272
David Orange
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
His dojo's in my family's small hometown of Miyako. I never felt I needed to move there because he referred us to Kaicho and since then I've been doing Aikido.
Have you discussed your recent actions with him or with Kaicho Nakamura?

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:16 PM   #273
mathewjgano
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Tenyu Hamaki wrote: View Post
I'm using this platform to inform people about peak oil because it's something that'll affect everyone's lives in the near future yet almost no one knows of it. The house is on fire and I'm giving the opportunity for people to find out about it if they want to.
Well, I agree that's an important topic! And I don't personally have a problem with going off-topic. Conversations do that (probably mine as much as anyone's). Still, I believe you began by saying you didn't want to get into peak oil and instead wanted to talk about your understanding of aiki.
Mostly I was trying to steer the conversation back to aiki. We now all know a bit about your history; you've been given a variety of advice based on that; let's move on and discuss that thing we like to do. To me and my beginner's mind, that's the gist of the thing anyway (minus the talking itself, for the most part).

Quote:
I could talk all day about Aikido but that wouldn't be efficient. Is there anything you'd like to know specifically about the staff or Aikido in general?
Efficient at what though? And how would I know where to begin to ask the questions most pertinent to your understanding?
Well, how would you describe your approach to teaching Aikido? What were planning for your first class? I don't have much experience, but I typically flew by the seat of my pants. I taught kids though so I could "fake it" when I had to (adults don't generally respond well to shiko-roll-freeze-tag as an appropriate Aikido activity ). Because I taught kids (6-12 y/o range) I focused more on basic coordination and ukemi safety...er..not to mention "fun," for without it, young kids will get distracted.
We did regular boktoh practice every class (mostly shomenuchi practice) and one or two of the kids began learning jo kata with me before class, but that's about it. My understanding of weapons is fairly limited.
...As for "internal" focused stuff, just furitama and torifuneundo as warm-ups.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 02-18-2011 at 03:26 PM.

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Old 02-18-2011, 03:30 PM   #274
akiy
 
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
And I don't personally have a problem with going off-topic.
Let's try to keep threads on-topic, please, if we can -- especially when the tangential subject is off of the topic of aikido/budo. Everyone is welcome (and encouraged) to start new threads regarding new topics at any time, of course.

-- Jun

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Old 02-18-2011, 03:33 PM   #275
Tenyu
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Re: New Internal Style of The Wooden Staff

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Have you discussed your recent actions with him or with Kaicho Nakamura?

David
This is none of your business nor that of the public.

This is also my last notice that I will not discuss private matters here.
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