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Old 11-16-2002, 11:23 AM   #81
aikido_fudoshin
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In terms of Aikidos "effectiveness", I posted my feelings on this earlier. For those of you who do not train intensely in Aikido, then I suggest you take a proper kenshu class or change dojos, or change styles for that matter. You may be enlightened.

I realize that many of you are here to try and discredit Aikido. Too many of those who train in Aikido still have doubts about whether it actually works. Why do you train in it then? I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it. Im not saying I'm the all knowing Aikidoka here, but these are things that help me focus. This is the way I have to feel about Aikido because my mind will thus be clouded with doubt and the battle will have already been lost.
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Old 11-16-2002, 02:45 PM   #82
Kevin Wilbanks
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Quote:
Ron Marshall (ronmar) wrote:
If you get attacked by several adults, then you are probably doomed, whether you try to grapple with them (you can do this standing), or anything else (striking, aikido, etc). I don't believe one person can win against many unless they are very lucky or have a weapon.
This is silly. I've seen one guy against four in a parking lot. He went ballistic on one and the other three started to change their minds and back away. As soon as the one guy was disengaged, they all decided to give it up. I'm sure plenty of people here can come up with similar stories of one against multiple attackers where the one did not die. Not every pack who jumps someone on the street is a team of trained assassins.
Quote:
Ron Marshall (ronmar) wrote:
(i)You, who trains with a helpful and cooperative partner, probably slowly, and with no contact and stress.
Not all Aikido is trained like this. Proclaiming so in public shows that you have a penchant for making rather grand generalizations. How many dojos have you visited? How many advanced training sessions have you seen? Any?

In general, the argument about the finger jab is somewhat misplaced, and seems to be ignorant of Aikido principles. The Aikidoka would not attempt the finger jab while the opponent was bobbing and weaving vigorously. In Aikido, most of the opportunities to do damage with atemi are opened up by moving, turning, and/or parrying an attack, drawing the attacker into an off-balanced position, or into a temprorary mechanically compromising situation like the beginning of shihonage. When an opponent is staggering or momentarily unable to figure out how to move, opportunities for damaging strikes become wide open. This is not to say that this will always happen or everyone can make it work, but this is how it is supposed to work.

Also in general, I think that the purpose of preparing for likely 'street' self-defense situations is somewhat different from preparing for a showdown with world-class martial artists, and you seem to be making all kinds of assumptions and generalizations about Aikido based on the latter scenario. I know many people, including bouncers, police officers, and guys who lived in rough areas who have reported excellent 'effectiveness' in applying their Aikido to real situations, yet I'm sure none of them would last a minute in the cage with a Gracie brother.
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Old 11-17-2002, 04:08 PM   #83
eric carpenter
 
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that questio is something ive asked my self too,and i suppose the awnser is find out about those techniques,train with those guys or read up on it.

ive just gotten an interesting book called grappling and ground work of karate,now karate is meant to be a standing punching kicking art but within the bunkai are these techniques,sometimes in karate i may use a aikido technique and it has i think improved my posture,in aikdo karate helps with atemi and kicks.

i hope i dont get into a confrontation with a grappler or jujitsu guy and maybe the lessons of aikido help to keep you level headed in these situations,i also hope martial arts people have more respect for people than to go around looking for fights,something i read was that ueshiba didnt develop aikido to be the most effective fighting system his idels were somewhat higher.

being picked on is not nice and from what ive been told a lot of people tend not to get into situations like that once theyve trained in a martial art,wether this is due to presence,being on guard,self confidence i dont know but it can only be a good thing.
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Old 11-18-2002, 04:23 AM   #84
ian
 
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Hi Kevin,

I don't know whats up with that *Ron Marshall bloke - I get the impression he got his arse kicked and is quite bitter about it. I think on the whole its best to make opinions based on one's experience - and I would agree with your points. Also, from my own experience, most self-defence situations differ in both your own objective (survival, pacification, argument, mugging); and therefore the correct response, and in what happens (much of which I think can depend on luck or foresight!)

For me, aikido helps train in the foresight area.

Ian

(*I think he's waiting for us to convince him that aikido is better than judo. Now although Ueshiba was easily able to deal with the then World Judo champion when he was in his late 60s, and that many top judo guys trained under him, I always think of Judo as a partner to aikido in the martial arts; with (modern) judo retaining the groundwork and developing competition from jujutsu, whereas aikido retains more of the joint manipulations.

For some of the dealings I've had I don't think I would be able to do a judo style throw to the people because they far outclassed me in size and weight. However I wouldn't be one to dis' judo, and I have seen a very good performance in a self defence situation from a Judo guy (with multiple attackers).

Ian

Last edited by ian : 11-18-2002 at 04:31 AM.

---understanding aikido is understanding the training method---
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Old 11-19-2002, 02:03 PM   #85
ronmar
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Quote:
Not all Aikido is trained like this. Proclaiming so in public shows that you have a penchant for making rather grand generalizations. How many dojos have you visited? How many advanced training sessions have you seen? Any?
I've visited 3 dojos and have seen no advanced training sessions (unless this is the bit where all the dan grades stay behind for a while). I would love to see some good aikido demonstrated in an open way but it seems to be pretty secretive and doesn't mix too much with other martial arts where I live.
Quote:
I know many people, including bouncers, police officers, and guys who lived in rough areas who have reported excellent 'effectiveness' in applying their Aikido to real situations, yet I'm sure none of them would last a minute in the cage with a Gracie brother.
Why not train GJJ then?
Quote:
I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it.
If floats then she's a witch and we'll burn her, if she sinks then she's innocent. Come off it, this sounds like something a brainwashed cult member might say. Do you not see that other people might not agree with you about the ultimate effectiveness of aikido and might just want to cross train in it out of interest or for fun?
Quote:
I don't know whats up with that *Ron Marshall bloke - I get the impression he got his arse kicked and is quite bitter about it. I think on the whole its best to make opinions based on one's experience
I agree about basing opinions on experience. I'm not violent though and don't get into too many fights, in contrast to warriors like yourself.
Quote:
I wouldn't be one to dis' judo
Eh, ok
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Old 11-20-2002, 11:30 AM   #86
MattRice
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To get back on topic, KICKING. I think that the fundamentals of Aikido give us all the tools we need to deal with kicking attacks, even though we don't always practice against kicks. Remeber that Aikido is an art based on principals, not techniques. Kicks come in 2 varieties: direct and indirect, just like hand strikes. A yokomen is a hook punch is a roundhouse kick. The attack comes from the same direction, with a similar angle. The weapon is different, but I think our training gives us the means to enter through the attack the same as we would if it were a hand strike or a grab.

$.02
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:00 PM   #87
paw
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Matt,
Quote:
To get back on topic, KICKING.
Unless I'm mistaken the topic is wrestlers and grapplers.
Quote:
I think that the fundamentals of Aikido give us all the tools we need to deal with kicking attacks, even though we don't always practice against kicks.
There's a huge difference between knowing and doing. To be perfectly frank, most students who have a good instructor "know" how to perform ikkyo after 10 or 15 minutes of instruction. How long does it take until a student can perform ikkyo properly with a cooperative partner? How about an uncooperative nidan with a chip on their shoulder? Knowing isn't the issue, performance is.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:20 PM   #88
MattRice
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from the original post
Quote:
David Mason (DavidM) wrote:
...even that of a kickboxer...in our class we are not shown any techniques against a kick, (or atleast not yet).
don't know much about wrestling or grappling. As a karateka, I know something about kicking.
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Old 11-20-2002, 12:58 PM   #89
paw
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Matt,

Be that as it may, I stand by my post. It's not knowledge, it's performance.

Try this experiment. Train yokomen shihonage with a newbie. Do this for a good, solid 1/2 hour. Then, without warning, throw a kick to their head.

I'll bet they freeze or flinch, because they've never had a kick thrown at their head before. In any case, explain to them that the kick has the same angle as yokomen, blah, blah, blah. Then go back to yokomen shihonage (don't throw another kick).

A month later, do the same thing. I bet they still freeze or flinch. Was incomplete knowledge at fault?

I spent a summer training muay thai. I was shown how to shield kicks first class. When I sparred I blocked all kicks because I knew how, right? Wrong. I ate kicks. I ate a lot of kicks. Not because I didn't know how to defend, but because I couldn't perform at the same level my partner was at.

Look at it this way. Most adults know how to ride a bike. Buy them the "best" bike in the world, give them the best equipment and clothing money can buy. Lance Armstrong will still kick their you-know-what riding a $200 bike in baggy shorts and a t-shirt.

If you don't train it, how can you do it?

Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-20-2002, 01:19 PM   #90
MattRice
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Hi Paul

My point is that the priciples are there in Aikido to deal with kicking attacks. Whether or not those principles are practiced and applied in specific dojos by specific people is beyond the scope of what I can speak to here and seems to be another subject.
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Old 11-20-2002, 01:41 PM   #91
aikido_fudoshin
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Quote:
Do you not see that other people might not agree with you about the ultimate effectiveness of aikido and might just want to cross train in it out of interest or for fun?
Should someone whos only doing Aikido for fun or not seriously be one to discuss it with people who want to use it for self defense? If your not serious about Aikido as a self defense martial art, your probably going to use some other means to defend yourself therefore you can not have a proper opinion on its effectiveness in a self defense situation since your mind has already been set with another way.
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Old 11-20-2002, 04:40 PM   #92
paw
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Matt,
Quote:
My point is that the priciples are there in Aikido to deal with kicking attacks.
I understand your point.

Maybe the principles are there, but without application, what's the point?

Let me put it this way: Who would have better aikido weapon skills, a person who trains once a week with boken, jo and tanto, or a person that only trains empty hands? Yet the aikido principles are the same.

Since David asked about "self-defense" against wrestlers, kicks and so on, isn't slightly dishonest to say, "well, the principles are there" if we know that without applying those principles against wrestlers, kickboxers and so on David won't have the complete picture?

I submit that without applying aikido principles and aikido techniques to the specific attacks of the groups David originally mentioned (wrestler, grappler, kickboxer), he won't be as prepared as if he did.

Which is why I replied in post number 4:
Quote:
Perhaps the simpliest thing to say is find a wrestler(freestyle, folkstyle or greco)/judo player/bjj'er/sambist, etc... and train with them until you reach the desired result.
Regards,

Paul
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Old 11-21-2002, 05:24 AM   #93
aikido_fudoshin
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Gozo Shioda Sensei stated: "People who come to Aikido are often interested in the individual techniques--how can I apply second control, how can I make kotegaeshi more effective etc.--but the true purpose of training is to understand the techniques common principles.

Once you grasp these priciples you will naturally lose interest in the specific details of individual techniques. Then depending on the individual circumstance you will naturally adjust to each situation, and therefore you will have the ability to respond in which ever way is best for you ... you will come to a level where, because you have a grasp of the principles, your own body will move by itself according to these principles."
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Old 11-21-2002, 02:26 PM   #94
ronmar
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I might start my own martial art. I'll tell all the eager young students that in principal fighting is about hurting your opponent and not getting hurt yourself. Then I'll get them to hit each other softly with giant cotton-wool balls to learn the principles of giving and receiving hits. I might then get them to do some dancing since one of the principles of fighting is to have good rhythm and movement. Then I'll enter them in a boxing match. They'll be ok if they remember the principles I taught them.
Quote:
Should someone whos only doing Aikido for fun or not seriously be one to discuss it with people who want to use it for self defense?
I'm seriously into fun. You forgot what you originally said. It was something along the lines of:
Quote:
Aikido [.......] surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you [.......] have not trained hard enough
Should people this biased about aikido be discussing it with people who want to do it out of a sense of curiosity?
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Old 11-21-2002, 03:44 PM   #95
aikido_fudoshin
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If you didnt leave out the blanks I stated that "at some point" Aikido surpasses all other martial arts, this does not mean that all the others are ineffective. Other systems work very well, its just that Aikido is based on all the basic principles that make other systems effective and it focuses heavily on them. Most arts deal with balance, center line, hip power, etc. By using all these principles it becomes the most effective. The only "problem" with Aikido is that it takes a much longer time to reach a high level of performance than other martial arts. But where others cant continue, Aikido can always move further on.

Remeber, Aikido is a self defense art. You cant use it to attack someone. I guess I should have been more clear and said its the most effective self defense martial art. Yet at the same time I believe other martial arts would not have much of a chance if they decided to attack an Aikidoka. Because of maai, and proper kamae, they are left to make a committed attack which allows the defender to manipulate that strike in a way in which it can be controlled.

quote: "Then I'll get them to hit each other softly with giant cotton-wool balls to learn the principles of giving and receiving hits. I might then get them to do some dancing since one of the principles of fighting is to have good rhythm and movement. Then I'll enter them in a boxing match. They'll be ok if they remember the principles I taught them."

I think its time you changed dojos. You are obviously not learning the martial effectiveness of Aikido. I dont know if you've noticed but we practice the principles in a simulated defense situation and many dojos do not train in that certain "fluffy" manner. You cant learn Aikido on the dance floor, although im sure the principles could help you out with a few dance moves.
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Old 12-06-2002, 02:28 PM   #96
Talon
 
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All I can say is when my sensei gets a hold of my arm after I initiate an attack, it removes my doubt of AikiDo's effectiveness. It feels like my arm will brake, my wrist will crack or my shoulder will pop out if I dont follow through the way he leads me. Its not like I have a choise, unless I want to get injured. If you dont train in that manner you will always have doubts. I sure have doubts too a specially when I read some of the posts on here, but all those doubts go away when My sensei askes me to be his ukey that particular class. I have some back ground in Karate and Wing Chun so I cant say that AIKIDO is the only martical art I've trained. But I surely can appreciate its effectiveness when I'm the uke....

Paul
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Old 12-16-2002, 01:21 AM   #97
locknthrow
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hmmmmmm answering one of the original posts about how to defend against a shoot....look at what the Gracies themselves say in their street self defence books and videos. Alot of times it is simply placing both hands on the shoulders of tackler as he comes in. Kind of like pushing him away. Then giving him a knee or elbow strike to the spine. Keith Hackney did this to Royce himself in UFC 3 0r 4.

I got into BJJ a little and got to practice against a novice Aikidoka. I went to shoot in on him and he just did an instinctive tenkan motion (I think thats correct..he pickep up his rear leg and swiveled on the front) and I ended up eating dust. I think sometimes we get "conditioned" to believe whatever is in style in the MA media at the time. I didn't think he could escape me like that and he didn't know enough to "know" that he couldn't. So he just did what came natural and it worked. I recently have come back to traditional arts after doing a little research. One good example is www.rmcat.com. This guy does real self defence training with ppl yelling and cursing at you to get you all stressed up. Anyway you can read what he says there at the website. I thought it was interesting that when his students learn techs. they learn them by going very slow with exaggerated movement because in a real fight he says your adrenaline "dump" will shorten your moves and speed them up naturally without you trying to. Of course you have to do some practice in life like situations to get your adrenaline pumping and learn to calm it all down and not freeze up. hmmmmmmmm sounds like a martial art that I know of... Also this guy is very interested in.....Aikido.
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Old 01-03-2003, 11:18 AM   #98
Lyle Bogin
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I think the real advantage wrestlers and grapplers have is that competition encourages them to be in incredible physical condition.

Everything else is just a matter of experience.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 08-13-2003, 03:59 PM   #99
Mike D.
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Quote:
Lynn Seiser (SeiserL) wrote:
After a great deal of training, begin practicing with people from other arts and see for yourself.
Hi Lynn, have you tried sparring with people from other arts? Could you elaborate? Thanks.
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Old 08-13-2003, 07:27 PM   #100
Aristeia
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Quote:
Bryan Siekierko (aikido_fudoshin) wrote:
I train in Aikido because at some point it surpasses all other martial arts. If any of you do not think this then you do not understand the art thoroughly enough, have not trained hard enough, and have not put the proper commitment into it. .
Hi Bryan

Can you give us a quick run down of your experience of martial arts outside of Aikido? What else have you studied?

Thanks

"When your only tool is a hammer every problem starts to look like a nail"
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