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Old 01-26-2011, 06:11 PM   #101
gregstec
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I have personally experienced 3 with Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei, and 4 with Ushiro Sensei. I'm sure they are not the only ones. (And some people posting in this thread claim an even higher skill level, which may be true but I haven't personally seen it.) All three teach in the US regularly, and I'd strongly suggest you go see them in person.

I'm not going to post video, as this is the sort of stuff that always "looks fake," and "has to be felt." I'll just say that if you have not personally put your hands on someone with these skills, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Katherine
As Katherine, I have had on-hands with both Saotome and Ikeda on more than one occasion, and yes, they can both do as she said, BUT not like what I have felt from Dan or Howard Popkin (my Aikijujutsu teacher) - both Dan and Howard are light years ahead in the internals than those two pillars of Aikido, not that they are bad, they just don't feel the same in the sense that I am I totally controlled by them when I touch them - both Dan and Howard do.

Greg
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:21 PM   #102
HL1978
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
My point would be that this stuff is hard enough without using words and phrases, especially technical terms/concepts, incorrectly. This is not mere semantic quibble either. If you will permit me to imitate Mike Sigman -as an engineer how would you describe the effect ('sink the qi') using western technical terms? It will help the athetically inclined to attempt to replicate the skill if they know exactly what is being referred to.
I would be happy to give it a go later on, as I already asked Chris how someone who has been focusing on athletic training can do it and he has yet to answer. I will note a couple of things however, what I was referencing earlier could be refered to as several related skills.
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Old 01-26-2011, 06:30 PM   #103
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
3) Who can do that? Show me video, and I'll duplicate it

4) See "3)"
Poke around youtube and put in the big time names in aikido (Ueshiba, Tohei etc), pre-war judo (find the hour long essence of judo video with Mifune), kendo (Mori Mochida) etc. If you want something more modern, put in the names of the big dogs of chen tai chi. Likewise search Akuzawa or Aunkai and you will find some videos too. I'm sure you can find 20 year old video of some of the posters on this thread as well if you look around the internet hard enough.

If you have difficulty finding any, search old threads in the non-aikido traditions section. If you still can't find any, I would be happy to suggest some and open a new discussion.
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Old 01-26-2011, 07:01 PM   #104
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
If the increase of temperature happened, can this be explained by a different cause than "movement of ki"?
Great couple of posts on it. hth.
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Old 01-26-2011, 07:10 PM   #105
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
As an engineer I am well aware that you can't effectively change you COG in a static position. Like you said, this is effectively what it feels like to a partner whether one is passively recieving a push or activly adding to it. In such a case it becomes a question not only of where one is originating there response or how They are letting that. Incoming force pass throuh their body.

None the less, I would to be curious as to how athletic training can replicate the effect.
awesome thread: Taijuuidou
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:21 PM   #106
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.

A few did offer some "sort- of" attempts at answering the question, but again circular logic rears it's head. No one seems to have any answers, but everyone knows about this stuff.

Trying to simplify what we are talking about doesn't seem to work here. Everyone wants to use ten dollar words and recount times when some high ranked somebody touched them.

If you guys would simply say "I don't know, but I like doing this stuff" at least that would be honest.

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Old 01-26-2011, 11:43 PM   #107
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Greg Steckel wrote: View Post
As Katherine, I have had on-hands with both Saotome and Ikeda on more than one occasion, and yes, they can both do as she said, BUT not like what I have felt from Dan or Howard Popkin (my Aikijujutsu teacher) - both Dan and Howard are light years ahead in the internals than those two pillars of Aikido, not that they are bad, they just don't feel the same in the sense that I am I totally controlled by them when I touch them - both Dan and Howard do.
I don't have enough information to compare those two. I'm still waiting for Chris to produce an athlete with the ability to match any of them.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:51 PM   #108
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.
Are you reading the same thread I am? I see several lists of IP-driven phenomenon, and several examples of teachers who can produce those phenomenon. And I see a resolute refusal on your part to engage with those posts.

Katherine
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:40 AM   #109
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Robert M Watson Jr wrote: View Post
I'd like to suggest that Mr. (Dr.?) James take a look at this one. I suspect a fairly simple series of measurements will show this not to be true. Of course, more specific details need to be clarified. For example, If one simply lowers ones arms the center of gravity is lowered but the body is not lowered.

Center of gravity is a technical term with a very precise definition. One may think they are lowering their center of gravity when performing 'sink the qi' but that is not actually what is happening.

As usual, very clear thinking is required in these undertakings.
Quote:
Hunter Lonsberry wrote: View Post
As an engineer I am well aware that you can't effectively change you COG in a static position. Like you said, this is effectively what it feels like to a partner whether one is passively recieving a push or activly adding to it. In such a case it becomes a question not only of where one is originating there response or how They are letting that. Incoming force pass throuh their body.

None the less, I would to be curious as to how athletic training can replicate the effect.
COG can be pretty hard to measure, what you might want instead is something to measure the interaction/kuzushi e.g. some force plates under uke's feet and nage's feet. These measure the ground reaction force in three dimensions - which can tell you a lot about what is going on upstairs. If uke is pushing you see a large horizontal force, re directed with something like aiki-age and you see just the vertical component (their weight bearing down on their feet if you like). If nage draws uke towards them to become the third pillar for their weight to rest on you see the vertical force of nage becomes larger.
The plates themselves are big enough to put both feet on though there are times you might leave one off to look closer.

Some other tools around the traps include multisensor preassure mats - from here you can look at the weight distribution across the feet. Couple the tool of you choice it with some video (many standard (i.e. cheap) handy cams will do short bursts of high speed now) and you might find something useful. Be sure to put your spandex on, rather than hiding limb segments under a hakama though.

Want to look at something faster than a glacial pace interaction and it gets a bit tougher. Even the static slow moving tests are hard to design to measure what you want, and for the test subjects its hard not to 'game' the system to see what you want to see/ or defeat what you don't want to see. (Its not quite uke collusion but a similar problem)

Daniel James, Brisbane Aikido Republic: AikiPhysics, Aikido Brisbane news,
ph 0413 001 844, 1593 Logan Rd, Mt.Gravatt, Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:41 AM   #110
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.

A few did offer some "sort- of" attempts at answering the question, but again circular logic rears it's head. No one seems to have any answers, but everyone knows about this stuff.

Trying to simplify what we are talking about doesn't seem to work here. Everyone wants to use ten dollar words and recount times when some high ranked somebody touched them.

If you guys would simply say "I don't know, but I like doing this stuff" at least that would be honest.
LOL.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-27-2011, 02:44 AM   #111
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Chris.

You win, internal training sucks. We suck. Will this be your last thread on you griping about internal training? Because you have convinced most of us. I'm going to Tokyo tomorrow to train with Rob, but since your arguments have been so convincing, I'm not gonna bother to train with Rob and just go run around and mack on blond-haired Japanese gyaru.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:28 AM   #112
Mike Sigman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Daniel James wrote: View Post
COG can be pretty hard to measure, what you might want instead is something to measure the interaction/kuzushi e.g. some force plates under uke's feet and nage's feet. These measure the ground reaction force in three dimensions - which can tell you a lot about what is going on upstairs. If uke is pushing you see a large horizontal force, re directed with something like aiki-age and you see just the vertical component (their weight bearing down on their feet if you like). If nage draws uke towards them to become the third pillar for their weight to rest on you see the vertical force of nage becomes larger.
The plates themselves are big enough to put both feet on though there are times you might leave one off to look closer.

Some other tools around the traps include multisensor preassure mats - from here you can look at the weight distribution across the feet. Couple the tool of you choice it with some video (many standard (i.e. cheap) handy cams will do short bursts of high speed now) and you might find something useful. Be sure to put your spandex on, rather than hiding limb segments under a hakama though.

Want to look at something faster than a glacial pace interaction and it gets a bit tougher. Even the static slow moving tests are hard to design to measure what you want, and for the test subjects its hard not to 'game' the system to see what you want to see/ or defeat what you don't want to see. (Its not quite uke collusion but a similar problem)
Great ideas on tools/measuring-devices. I stood up and practiced some pretend interactions with an imaginary partner and paid attention to the forces in and around my feet. It's *possible* that a sophisticated extrapolation from some type of force-plates under the feet would be helpful, but I have no expertise in that area.

In terms of my center, I can do a number of tricks with it that have been trained over time, plus I can source forces at will in different directions (my body's alignment structure subtly reforming for each new force). In relation to an opponent's forces, I can vector-add forces in such a way that the resultant is uncomfortable for him. None of these things is an actual change in my COG, of course, but an opponent may feel an effect (the vector-resultant for the combined structures of our bodies) that suggests something to do with my COG. It's mostly just me deliberately manipulating forces in relation to a joined "unit-body", though.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-27-2011, 03:49 AM   #113
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.

A few did offer some "sort- of" attempts at answering the question, but again circular logic rears it's head. No one seems to have any answers, but everyone knows about this stuff.

Trying to simplify what we are talking about doesn't seem to work here. Everyone wants to use ten dollar words and recount times when some high ranked somebody touched them.

If you guys would simply say "I don't know, but I like doing this stuff" at least that would be honest.
It's all about circles Chris, don't let them get to you or you will be assimilated, resitance is futile we will assimilate you, we are the Harden borg, resistance is futile, you will be assimilated......
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:58 AM   #114
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Usually I just skim these threads, shake my head, and go back to training, but on this one I hope I might have a beneficial perspective to offer.

Much of my study over the past 10 years has revolved around how to utilize exercise and conditioning to create the best budo-body. I studied sports science, Russian kettlebells, Russian Systema and ROSS, was a CST instructor under Scott Sonnon (circular strength training system) from 2004 to 2006, and also wrote a book on Warrior Fitness - conditioning for martial arts. I hope this establishes my knowledge base and belief in western exercise science and physical training. Also, to round out my background, I have been training in martial arts for almost 30 years, 22 of them in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

In 2008 while reading E-Budo, I discovered a thread by a guy named Dan Harden talking about conditioning a "budo-body" in a way I had never heard of before. When Dan announced his teacher seminar back in August of 2009, I jumped at the chance. I'm not going to re-review the seminar here, but suffice it to say I came away with concrete exercises, examples, and principles on which to work and put into my own personal practice. At the time, I had asked Dan about combining the solo exercises he taught with my regimen of kettlebells and other western conditioning methods. Here's his reply from the 2009 thread:
Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would stop everything but cardio for a while. There is a period where your body needs to "reset." I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so for me-I needed to avoid every device where my body would revert back to just doing what it knew. That included power lifting, Judo/jujutsu, everything. I wasn't kidding about this training changing your body physically. It is conditioning; mentally and physically, but it is very soft, meant to not be physically exhausting, by rather mentally exhausting. Remember all the cautions I gave about sitting down if you were tired and stopping? Why? Because we need your mind at its peak and your body aware and listening. It's a soft, gradual process. "Burning it in" with hard exercises will just screw it up, so will doing it fast. All that comes later.
Needless to say I followed his advice and gave up all other exercise and just concentrated on the solo work. The result after 6 months or so? People asking me - why are you so difficult to throw?

Now, here's the comparison part. Around April last year I had the bright idea to start lifting kettlebells, clubbells, sandbags, and doing all sorts of high intensity conditioning workouts. The results? After several months, I looked great, was very healthy and conditioned and physically strong, but here's the rub - I FELT just like everyone else. Training partners that had been having trouble throwing me and locking me were able to do so again much easier than before. So, my little mind got to thinking - what is my goal here? Do I want to be strong and conditioned as an athlete OR strong and conditioned as a budoka? I chose Budoka and quit lifting and once again began doing the solo work that Dan teaches. I now train this stuff for at least an hour every day and will not look back. To me, the difference is clear.

One last point. Internal is not superior to athleticism, it's a different methodology of training for a different result. As I said above, you need to decide your goal. It's not for everyone

Hope that ramble helps....

Jon
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Old 01-27-2011, 07:36 AM   #115
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Nice, Jon. That pretty much gels with my experience when I started working on "this stuff". You have to rewire the body to a degree, otherwise you'll just do things the way you always did them.
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Old 01-27-2011, 07:44 AM   #116
David Orange
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Are you reading the same thread I am? I see several lists of IP-driven phenomenon, and several examples of teachers who can produce those phenomenon. And I see a resolute refusal on your part to engage with those posts.

Katherine


Thanks!

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-27-2011, 07:46 AM   #117
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.

A few did offer some "sort- of" attempts at answering the question, but again circular logic rears it's head. No one seems to have any answers, but everyone knows about this stuff.

Trying to simplify what we are talking about doesn't seem to work here. Everyone wants to use ten dollar words and recount times when some high ranked somebody touched them.

If you guys would simply say "I don't know, but I like doing this stuff" at least that would be honest.
Do this;

Stand against a wall. Heel, head and butt vertically aligned touching the wall.
Get the strongest person in the dojo to push on you, on the sternum,chest, shoulders,where ever. it doesn't matter. Pin them there with all you've got.
Now neutralize the push and Walk off the wall with the greatest of ease (As seen from the outside world).

No I can't do this; but I did do the pinning..
And I was pushing. I remember the wall was groaning behind the guy.

Can you reproduce this Chris?
Did I use any 10 dollar words?
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:02 AM   #118
David Orange
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.
That's been my feeling when talking to you.

I gave you a very clear and simple challenge:

show yourself shoving someone weighing 50% more than you (and I'll even settle for 40% more) 25 feet back with a bo.

Then you were gone from the forum the rest of the day. I guessed you were videoing your attempts and simply found that you couldn't do it. Now you're back claiming no one gave you anything solid to work with.

So in case you missed it:

1. find someone who weighs 40 to 50% more than you (preferably someone with at least 20 years of solid martial arts training) and videotape the following:

2. stand in a back stance holding a 6ft bo

3. have the uke stand facing you in back stance holding the other end of the bo, directly in front of you, and tell him to keep you from pushing the bo forward

4. shove the uke back 25 feet without moving either foot, as Ark did with me.

5. if you can't do it, find any athlete who can and tape them doing it

When you can do that, I'll be glad to hear your ideas on the value of whatever you want to discuss.

Otherwise, I'm pretty well convinced that your thoughts don't merit the same attention as those of people like Mike and Dan or even people like me who have only felt the power and are seriously trying to learn more about it.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I started by asking a question.
And so far you have continued by ignoring every answer. We're all just waiting for any meaningful response from you.

"I can't do it" is the only honest answer I expect from you.

If you "can" do it, I'll be the first to say that I was wrong.

Best to you.

And waiting.....

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-27-2011, 08:07 AM   #119
MM
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Do this;

Stand against a wall. Heel, head and butt vertically aligned touching the wall.
Get the strongest person in the dojo to push on you, on the sternum,chest, shoulders,where ever. it doesn't matter. Pin them there with all you've got.
Now neutralize the push and Walk off the wall with the greatest of ease (As seen from the outside world).

No I can't do this; but I did do the pinning..
And I was pushing. I remember the wall was groaning behind the guy.

Can you reproduce this Chris?
Did I use any 10 dollar words?
Don't forget, Josh, to also note that the person being pushed cannot use his hands. The person being pushed must just walk forward without touching the person pushing.
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Old 01-27-2011, 08:10 AM   #120
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Don't forget, Josh, to also note that the person being pushed cannot use his hands. The person being pushed must just walk forward without touching the person pushing.
And should have his toenails trimmed.

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Old 01-27-2011, 08:33 AM   #121
Lorel Latorilla
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Jon Haas wrote: View Post
Usually I just skim these threads, shake my head, and go back to training, but on this one I hope I might have a beneficial perspective to offer.

Much of my study over the past 10 years has revolved around how to utilize exercise and conditioning to create the best budo-body. I studied sports science, Russian kettlebells, Russian Systema and ROSS, was a CST instructor under Scott Sonnon (circular strength training system) from 2004 to 2006, and also wrote a book on Warrior Fitness - conditioning for martial arts. I hope this establishes my knowledge base and belief in western exercise science and physical training. Also, to round out my background, I have been training in martial arts for almost 30 years, 22 of them in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

In 2008 while reading E-Budo, I discovered a thread by a guy named Dan Harden talking about conditioning a "budo-body" in a way I had never heard of before. When Dan announced his teacher seminar back in August of 2009, I jumped at the chance. I'm not going to re-review the seminar here, but suffice it to say I came away with concrete exercises, examples, and principles on which to work and put into my own personal practice. At the time, I had asked Dan about combining the solo exercises he taught with my regimen of kettlebells and other western conditioning methods. Here's his reply from the 2009 thread:

Needless to say I followed his advice and gave up all other exercise and just concentrated on the solo work. The result after 6 months or so? People asking me - why are you so difficult to throw?

Now, here's the comparison part. Around April last year I had the bright idea to start lifting kettlebells, clubbells, sandbags, and doing all sorts of high intensity conditioning workouts. The results? After several months, I looked great, was very healthy and conditioned and physically strong, but here's the rub - I FELT just like everyone else. Training partners that had been having trouble throwing me and locking me were able to do so again much easier than before. So, my little mind got to thinking - what is my goal here? Do I want to be strong and conditioned as an athlete OR strong and conditioned as a budoka? I chose Budoka and quit lifting and once again began doing the solo work that Dan teaches. I now train this stuff for at least an hour every day and will not look back. To me, the difference is clear.

One last point. Internal is not superior to athleticism, it's a different methodology of training for a different result. As I said above, you need to decide your goal. It's not for everyone

Hope that ramble helps....

Jon
This is an interesting topic to me because it seems like 'athleticism' and having a 'budo body' are mutually exclusive. I am personally interested in having the 'conditioning' of an 'athlete', but for the purposes of running, walking long distances, carrying heavy loads, climbing, swimming. Things a soldier is required to do. But at the same time, I want to maintain a budo body..it's the only kind of body that can stand a chance against bigger people (I'm only 5'3). For this reason, I've dedicated the past 4-5 years to re-wiring my body to prepare it for 'aiki' skill, dragon back, etc..

Some people have suggested to me that I try crossfit--but I didn't like what it did to my body. So far, I've only experimented with jogging/bodyskill stuff. Nothing groundbreaking so far.

You got any advice for a boy that wants to maintain the conventional 'athletic' body and the budo body, John?

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Old 01-27-2011, 08:43 AM   #122
HL1978
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
4. shove the uke back 25 feet without moving either foot, as Ark did with me.
Just to clarify so that this doesn't sound completely fantastic, I do not believe David intends people to think that Ark shoved him back 25 feet in the air. He probably was poped up in the air a bit, but took 25 feet to regain his balance as he moved backwards.
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:03 AM   #123
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
I keep reading through these posts, trying to see how to get through, but it seems hopeless. It's like trying to talk to someone who is on a mission of faith.

I started by asking a question. Most people didn't bother to answer the question, but rather, asked their own questions, and use circular logic.

A few did offer some "sort- of" attempts at answering the question, but again circular logic rears it's head. No one seems to have any answers, but everyone knows about this stuff.

Trying to simplify what we are talking about doesn't seem to work here. Everyone wants to use ten dollar words and recount times when some high ranked somebody touched them.

If you guys would simply say "I don't know, but I like doing this stuff" at least that would be honest.
Chris,

I'm a nub in this area skill wise, but I'm also trying to make a go of understanding what's going on in more simple terms, so I'll take a stab at it.

First there is relaxation or keeping the body soft and flexible. By keeping the body soft and flexible it allows it to do things with energy transfer that simply aren't possible with hard, flexed muscle. This is no different than buildings or bridges that are supported by soft, flexible connections to the ground. Hard and rigid connections can always be overcome by a stronger force and are more easily degraded over time and under pressure, but soft and flexible can disperse and redirect that force/energy in a variety of ways and much more efficiently.

next, and this is kinda where "it has to be felt" is that the body can be conditioned so that you can mentally direct energy/forces through that soft/flexible material. The conditioning aspects seek to build and connect the materials of the body that are capable of transfering that energy. The stronger and better connected that material is, the more capable the body is of manipulating those forces whether they be initiated by the ground, by someone else or by gravity. An example of this would be in grappling. If you have someone by the shoulders and are trying to get under them they could take in your energy, combined with their own and via force vectors (I think that's the right term) can redirect that energy back at you, lower than where you're inputting it and under your center of gravity. The net result is that you are, on contact, never quite stable and more easily thrown all without them physically dropping their body to be under you, as is typically in most grappling scenarios.

This is a very basic description and by no means complete or all encompassing, but you asked for an example of what it can do that typical athletics/muscle can't and I think this fits that bill.
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:42 AM   #124
phitruong
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

was doing slow jog the other day and was focus on breathing and expanding. ya, bouncing ball down the road. so i was thinking, if someone would push a runner sideway in the shoulder, while the runner is running, more than likely the runner would break stride and probably goes off the road and/or tripping on his/her own feet. now the folks who trained IS with one of the requirement is to be able to handle force input from multiple directions at the same time (the 6H stuffs, not the 4H which involved strange practices with farm animals) . so with an IS trained runner, the push from the side wouldn't break his/her/it stride. he/she/it would have dealt with the force input(s) and keep on running. just thinking out loud mind you. however, if any of you bugger tried to push me while i am out and about jogging, you are going down, no loving and harmony here.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:09 AM   #125
ChrisHein
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Are you reading the same thread I am? I see several lists of IP-driven phenomenon, and several examples of teachers who can produce those phenomenon. And I see a resolute refusal on your part to engage with those posts.

Katherine
The problem with this is that all the lists presented are working under that assumption that what you think is happening is happening. It's circular reasoning. You won't question from outside of the belief that the stuff you are observing is happening the way you think it is. I am only questioning from outside of this belief, because I don't hold it.

I can't have someone push me in the wall with all their force, and simply walk away from the wall. Nor have I ever seen anyone else do that. I can however think of several situations where this could be made possible. I don't know what you are seeing, if you show it to me, I can work with it, but words are not doing it.

There is a standard point being made that I have to feel it to know it. I have in the past (although not yet in this thread) made the point that group think, mental suggestion, magic tricks and other means can be used to create these types of situations. Feeling it is not enough. You have to be able to objectively look at something physical. You must be able to step away from the emotions of the moment and see what is happening. However no one will put up anything concrete that can be looked at objectively.

David Blaine can do all manner of amazing things, but we all know he is a trickster. The fact that none of the IP IS or whatever you want to call them guys want to put out video, they hold tightly controlled seminars, and otherwise seem mysterious and vague should make you question it, unless you're working on faith.

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