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Old 01-26-2011, 09:53 AM   #51
bkedelen
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

I'm getting out the popcorn!
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:56 AM   #52
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I will be excited to see the citations of any IP advocate suggesting abandonment of physical conditioning.
You, up thread, wrote:
Quote:
And athleticism is just muscular development and exertion. They're better than getting no exercise, but they don't even enter the arena of real martial arts.
Maybe not "suggesting abandonment," but certainly not a resounding endorsement, either.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:01 AM   #53
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Every time I post, I have to respond to many different people, so forgive me if I omit you specifically. This post would go on to long if I were to respond to everyone individually.

I asked the question, what can an internal martial artist physically do better than an athlete. I saw many replies that said something to the effect of: athletics are different than internal, each should be trained for their specific strengths. So what is the specific strength that internal has over athletics? What can internal people do that athletes can't?

David Orange. Let me address as many of your questions as I can in one statement. Ki or Chi means energy. Exactly as we use the word in the west. When you knock on a door, you put ki into the wood, and that ki reverberates through the air going inside of the ear and makes a sound. When you pick something up, you are using ki. Ki is not magical, it means energy. Watch a physics lecture and substitute the word ki every time the speaker says energy, we in the west use the same word to explain all kinds of things.

When I said I believe that athletes are physically superior to internal people, I should have said, believe and can prove. I can show you video of athletes doing all kinds of things that internal people can't. I have yet to see a video of an internal guy doing something that I can't duplicate, let a lone a professional athlete.

Hunter,
Athletes can do everything on your list as well or better than any internal person. That is my opinion, yours is apparently contrary to that, how do we prove our points with something other than our own speculation?

Other then saying, "they're just different" I didn't see any real answers.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:11 AM   #54
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Athletes can do everything on your list as well or better than any internal person. That is my opinion, yours is apparently contrary to that, how do we prove our points with something other than our own speculation?
Other then saying, "they're just different" I didn't see any real answers.
Chris
All due respect offered, athletes cannot do what I do. I have any number of body workers, lifters, TMA and MMA people I have trained who would vehemenly dissagree with you.

I agree with you that nothing of proof has been offered here either way. You haven't made your point either, Chris.
Then again you discount every teacher here who is telling you it feels different as if they or their testimony doesn't matter-while you have only one source to rebutt- that is- your teacher.
Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-26-2011 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:14 AM   #55
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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That is my opinion, yours is apparently contrary to that, how do we prove our points with something other than our own speculation?

.
Wow, an honest question.

Maybe you can start by meeting people who claim to be doing 'different' things? Bring an 'athletic' person with you too, and see whether they can replicate the feel of the aiki/bodyskill guy. Only then can you put your speculations to rest. Other than that, your speculations aint mean shit. Pardon my French.

"I asked the question, what can an internal martial artist physically do better than an athlete. I saw many replies that said something to the effect of: athletics are different than internal, each should be trained for their specific strengths. So what is the specific strength that internal has over athletics? What can internal people do that athletes can't?"

Hunter already freaking answered your question, dude. Damn.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:15 AM   #56
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
David Orange. Let me address as many of your questions as I can in one statement. Ki or Chi means energy. Exactly as we use the word in the west. When you knock on a door, you put ki into the wood, and that ki reverberates through the air going inside of the ear and makes a sound. When you pick something up, you are using ki. Ki is not magical, it means energy. Watch a physics lecture and substitute the word ki every time the speaker says energy, we in the west use the same word to explain all kinds of things.
Actually, the character 気 is used in all kinds of contexts. Some involve energy in the sense of physics, but many do not. My Japanese character dictionary (New Nelson) lists nearly four pages of compounds, ranging in meaning from "energy, vigor, vitality" to "gloom, melancholy." It's used to discuss mechanical energy, the weather, individual health... all kinds of topics. I'm sure the Chinese usage is just as complex. (As is the English usage of the word "energy," for that matter.)

Which is not to go into great detail on the etymology of 気. Someone like Peter Goldsbury is far more qualified to address the topic than I am. Just to point out that literal interpretations of words pulled from another language are often misleading.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:18 AM   #57
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

My only source of rebuttal? I haven't seen anything to rebut. People have said, "my teacher says" I say "they are wrong, can you prove to me how I am wrong" and they reply with "no you're wrong". If it makes you feel better I'll put up some video of people playing football, and ask if your teacher can do that, or has a student that can do that. Then you can post any video you like, and I'll duplicate what you're doing. But we haven't even gotten there yet.

Dan, with all due respect, why don't you post a video showing what you can physically do that others cannot. I'll bet that barring raw strength (athletics) as I've heard you are a power lifter, that I can duplicate whatever you show.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:28 AM   #58
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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My only source of rebuttal? I haven't seen anything to rebut.
Sure you have. Hunter, up-thread, wrote:

Quote:
3) Can take your balance on contact without any overt movement as they are already under your center of mass. They then manipulate you wherever they want. If it is a strike you loose your balance on contact.

4) Generate signifigant power/speed with no windup of the muscles or chain/kinetic linking. Rotation and weight shifts are not required.
I trimmed the list to these because it's pretty clear what they actually mean, where things like "lowering center of gravity without moving" are hard to measure outside of a lab.

I have personally felt both of these effects. I am not aware of any individuals who are able to duplicate these effects without internal martial arts training of some kind. If you do, please provide examples.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:30 AM   #59
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

3) Who can do that? Show me video, and I'll duplicate it

4) See "3)"

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:32 AM   #60
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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My only source of rebuttal? I haven't seen anything to rebut. People have said, "my teacher says" I say "they are wrong, can you prove to me how I am wrong" and they reply with "no you're wrong". If it makes you feel better I'll put up some video of people playing football, and ask if your teacher can do that, or has a student that can do that. Then you can post any video you like, and I'll duplicate what you're doing. But we haven't even gotten there yet.

Dan, with all due respect, why don't you post a video showing what you can physically do that others cannot. I'll bet that barring raw strength (athletics) as I've heard you are a power lifter, that I can duplicate whatever you show.
Chris, you are being stubbornly stupid. Nobody has said anything about 'my teacher says'.

You do understand that there are people here that have trained in Aikido longer than you have and have been Uchi Deshi to guys like Mochizuki Minoru and have felt Ark and have concluded that Ark is really actually doing something different from the rest of the martial arts world? I'd listen to those guys more than I'd listen to you (hint, he's on this thread).

With all due respect, why don't you meet Dan when he comes through? Not to challenge him to a duel, but to really test whether your speculations are true. Dan will take you on his offer and from what I hear will buy you dinner and beer after. This posting up video and discussing on the net is bullshit. You've been sniping on internal guys for a couple years now...for what reason are you doing this? To help out the aikido community? To break us (doing this kind of training from the delusion) out that this training is actually valuable?

You should be honest with yourself about why you're posting these kinda things Chris.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:38 AM   #61
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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3) Who can do that? Show me video, and I'll duplicate it

4) See "3)"
I have personally experienced 3 with Ikeda Sensei and Saotome Sensei, and 4 with Ushiro Sensei. I'm sure they are not the only ones. (And some people posting in this thread claim an even higher skill level, which may be true but I haven't personally seen it.) All three teach in the US regularly, and I'd strongly suggest you go see them in person.

I'm not going to post video, as this is the sort of stuff that always "looks fake," and "has to be felt." I'll just say that if you have not personally put your hands on someone with these skills, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Katherine
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:39 AM   #62
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
You do understand that there are people here that have trained in Aikido longer than you have and have been Uchi Deshi to guys like Mochizuki Minoru and have felt Ark and have concluded that Ark is really actually doing something different from the rest of the martial arts world? I'd listen to those guys more than I'd listen to you (hint, he's on this thread).
This pretty much says: "my teacher says", or at least, "other peoples teachers say".

Quote:
With all due respect, why don't you meet Dan when he comes through?
When Dan was through here last time, Michael tried to go see him, his check was returned.
Quote:
You should be honest with yourself about why you're posting these kinda things Chris.
Look into the mirror.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:49 AM   #63
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
You, up thread, wrote:

""And athleticism is just muscular development and exertion. They're better than getting no exercise, but they don't even enter the arena of real martial arts.""

Maybe not "suggesting abandonment," but certainly not a resounding endorsement, either.
Lame, Katherine. I don't need to resoundingly endorse athletic exercise to respect its proper place in strength and wind conditioning. Virtually every post I make stresses the necessity of conditioning all six elements of bone, muscle, fascia, breath, mind and ki to develop internal power. A certain amount of exercise is necessary for good health.

But athletic conditioning has its limits and uses.

So again, your effort is lame in this case. Do you just have so much time on your hands that you need to manufacture misreadings?

If you have to post, at least post relevant things.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:50 AM   #64
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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This pretty much says: "my teacher says", or at least, "other peoples teachers say".

When Dan was through here last time, Michael tried to go see him, his check was returned.

Look into the mirror.
1) The point is Chris, if I haven't been exposed to an internal martial arts guy, why should I listen to you and not David Orange? Why should I put my faith in your opinion? (for the record, I dont need your opinions. I went out there and touched Ark). The fact that you're too scared to actually go out there, meet people and consider the fact that you might be wrong and also keep your 'scientific' speculations within the range of the internet will only lead to unproven speculations and circular games you like to play. You mentioned in the beginning that you've trained with an expert in internal martial arts--sound familiar Chris? So you've trained with Tim Cartmell and he says that the stuff they do in Thai boxing is the same as what the internal guys do...oh shit, should I believe you now????? I should stop training the internal stuff and do crossfit now!

2) That's too bad. If you fail, try try again.

3) "I know you are but what am I"...nice one there, Pee Wee Herman.

Last edited by Lorel Latorilla : 01-26-2011 at 10:55 AM.

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Old 01-26-2011, 10:51 AM   #65
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hunter,
Athletes can do everything on your list as well or better than any internal person. That is my opinion, yours is apparently contrary to that, how do we prove our points with something other than our own speculation?

Other then saying, "they're just different" I didn't see any real answers.
Well, we could describe how each of the things I listed could be done by someone with a good athletic background. For example, someone with a good athletic background can unbalance someone else on contact, wether it is a strike or grab, or a response to a grab.

This could be accomplished for example, due to physically lowering their center of gravity as they enter in towards their opponent (Boxer Jack Dempsey, judo, aikido, various martial arts etc all teach this). It can be accomplished by entering on an vector offline of the opponents attack. Clearly both means are taught in aikido. Likewise, it can be accomplished by having more mass than the opponent.

I am sure many of us have felt skilled/highly athletic people do the above, but it doesn't tend to feel the same, or have the same dramatic effect as when a skilled/conditioned IS person does it, or how the skilled/conditioned IS practioner may not be effected by such an incoming motion. The fact that a skilled IS person need not rely on the same means as I described above, could be construed at the very least as different or at the very least unusual, and depending on ones opinion, a "better" approach.

Now if you can go into how a skilled athletic person can utilize kokyu in a manner other than grunting for power, lower their center of gravity without bending their legs, or any of the other effects I mentioned, I think it would be an informative discussion, given some parallels to power lifters. In particular this might help people sitting on the fence understand the differences between the two approaches.

Last edited by HL1978 : 01-26-2011 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 01-26-2011, 10:56 AM   #66
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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When Dan was through here last time, Michael tried to go see him, his check was returned.
Hey....who is Michael?
I had about ten guys who registered late -several of them from here-and that seminar was too full already- . Let's not imply foul play where there was none, I bear you no ill will, especially since I once offered to show you in person. Why didn't you apply?
Dan
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Old 01-26-2011, 11:10 AM   #67
David Orange
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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David Orange. Let me address as many of your questions as I can in one statement. Ki or Chi means energy. Exactly as we use the word in the west.
Again...not even close. Energy can be detected and measured. Ki cannot be detected or measured except by another person using ki.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
When you knock on a door, you put ki into the wood, and that ki reverberates through the air going inside of the ear and makes a sound. When you pick something up, you are using ki.
Again, no, you don't put ki "into" the door when you knock on it. You put the force of your movement into the door. The ki never leaves your body. And very few people actually use ki to pick things up. They may incidentally involve the ki because it's part of their physiology, as the mind is. The difference is in the degree and fluency with which you use it. You can use it without knowing it--which is the only way you can use it if you don't know what it is. Or, if you know what it is, you can use it haphazardly. Or you can know exactly what it is, condition it, use it in coordination with the other parts of the mind/body complex and consciously direct it. Only then are you actually "using" it. Just as you can pick up a cup without really paying attention. You "use" your mind in that, too, but only very vaguely. You cannot use ki with any level of accuracy by accident. Sometimes you get results from it because you do enough things generally right and it works, but then you can't do it again because you don't understand what happened.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Ki is not magical...
Who has said it is? None of the IP posters here, certainly.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
...it means energy. Watch a physics lecture and substitute the word ki every time the speaker says energy, we in the west use the same word to explain all kinds of things.
That is really an ignorant statement, Chris. Tell that to a physicist and he will laugh at you and repeat what I just said unless he's just too polite. Can you measure ki? No. Can you detect ki? No. Because "ki" is NOT "energy" as physics defines it. It is LIFE. You can say "life force" or "life energy" but those terms are actually inaccurate.

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
When I said I believe that athletes are physically superior to internal people, I should have said, believe and can prove. I can show you video of athletes doing all kinds of things that internal people can't. I have yet to see a video of an internal guy doing something that I can't duplicate, let a lone a professional athlete.
So you can duplicate all of Ueshiba's feats? You can do what Sagawa did? What Sokaku Takeda did?

And second, you cannot "prove" that athletes are physically superior to internal people because as Phi pointed out, athletics today is more specialized than ever. Whatever you can get an athlete to do, I can show you something in a different field of athletics that he can't do. A marathon runner will lose to most competetive swimmers. The weight lifters will lose to the runners. The boxers and the wrestlers will win some, lose some. So even among athletes "physically superior" is a relative thing. So you've just been "disproven" and we're back to your "faith" and your "belief" without facts.

But you show me any athlete who can do half of what ARK does and I'll wash the mats in your dojo.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2011, 11:13 AM   #68
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Actually, the character 気 is used in all kinds of contexts. Some involve energy in the sense of physics, but many do not. My Japanese character dictionary (New Nelson) lists nearly four pages of compounds, ranging in meaning from "energy, vigor, vitality" to "gloom, melancholy." It's used to discuss mechanical energy, the weather, individual health... all kinds of topics. I'm sure the Chinese usage is just as complex. (As is the English usage of the word "energy," for that matter.)
And in the specifically martial context, ki is very specific. It doesn't mean 'energy' in the western sense at all.

Best wishes.

David

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Lao Tzu

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Old 01-26-2011, 11:19 AM   #69
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Ki cannot be detected or measured except by another person using ki.
Serious business.

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Old 01-26-2011, 11:30 AM   #70
David Orange
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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My only source of rebuttal? I haven't seen anything to rebut. People have said, "my teacher says" I say "they are wrong, can you prove to me how I am wrong" and they reply with "no you're wrong"
That's certainly not what I said. I always refer to what people do. I couldn't care less what anyone says if they can't back it up with action.

But here's something I'm pretty sure you can't do.

In Atlanta, Minoru Akuzawa shoved me back 25 feet (as witnesses have posted here on aikiweb) when I tried to hold back his push on a bo. We were both in "back stances," holding opposite ends of a 6ft bo.

He weighed 130 pound and I was over 190--at least 46% heavier than he, more like 50% heavier.

So video yourself shoving a person 25 feet backward when they weigh 46-50% more than you.

Ark didn't move either foot and he didn't incline his shoulders forward. He started in a "back stance" and may have shifted to a front stance, but he remained upright.

Further, I seriously doubt that you or any athlete of your choosing could do that or produce the explosive feeling as if a wall of wind blasted me back, as it happened with Ark.

I know you've got a camera because I've seen lots of your videos.

So set up your camera and show us ten consecutive attempts to shove someone back any distance at all with a bo. Make sure that the uke is 46-50% heavier than yourself.

I will look forward to seeing your ten attempts.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-26-2011 at 11:40 AM.

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Old 01-26-2011, 11:41 AM   #71
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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By no means correct. When the brain sends a signal to the muscles, it uses nerves. That is not ki. Ki does not travel through the nerves and nerve impulses cannot travel through the meridians of ki. So your first idea is in error because you still confuse 'mind' with 'ki,'...
This strikes me as odd...Nerve impulses cannot travel through the meridians? How does one sense or control the ki without nerves and their various endings?
It seems like the meridians would be an effect of nerves from the symmetries of the body and that those meridians can be sensed (more easily) when there aren't arbitrary (semi-random) tension-points interfering with the rather continuous flow of nerve impulses. It seems like a distinction ought be made between the kinds of nerve impulses, rather than whether or not nerves are involved.
...not all nerve-impulses are "mind," right? Hence the biofeedback practices used to integrate nerves and intent (integrating different nerve impulses)?
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-26-2011 at 11:44 AM.

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:11 PM   #72
David Orange
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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This strikes me as odd...Nerve impulses cannot travel through the meridians?
No. Nerve energy can only travel in nerve fibers. There are points where nerves cross meridians and vice versa, so there are some meridian points that correspond with a nerve point, but the fact that meridians don't follow nerves has always been a big factor in scientific efforts to "debunk" ki theories. Ki travels in the fascia (and the blood and marrow).

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
How does one sense or control the ki without nerves and their various endings?
Ki is the essence what "one" is so we sense the ki directly, without the necessity for nerve action. The brain is a structure the ki uses, as "the soul" uses the brain. The brain uses nerves to control the muscles. Ki does not directly control the muscles. But it is present throughout the whole body at all times and can communicate instantly within itself throughout the body. It's sort of like a sub-atomic particle--not really a particle, but a field that is more intense in one spot than in the rest of the field, so that it seems to be a particle. Wehen we 'send ki' to a part of the body, it simultaneously exists (and is conscious) throughout the body, but it intensifies in the place where we direct the mind.

What I've been working on the last few weeks is observing my own ki and my own mind to distinguish one from the other and to become directly aware of how the two interact. From there, the interaction of ki with the body is another thing. So I'm studying that as well (since I recognized the ki by contemplation of the fascia). But my sense is that ki going to a part of the body prepares that body part for the nerve signal that will come immediately after. But the ki goes into the bones, the skin, the blood, the fascia and the muscles, while the nerve impulse goes only to the muscle, I think I understand. But I believe this is how the old tai chi and other Chinese sources describe it.

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
It seems like the meridians would be an effect of nerves from the symmetries of the body and that those meridians can be sensed (more easily) when there aren't arbitrary (semi-random) tension-points interfering with the rather continuous flow of nerve impulses. It seems like a distinction ought be made between the kinds of nerve impulses, rather than whether or not nerves are involved.
No, I'm pretty sure, anatomically, that nerve impulses can only travel through nerve fibers, while fascia runs through areas both with and without nerve endings.For instance, I think I'm correct that there are no nerve endings actually inside the muscles, but only at the ends of the muscle fibers, while fascia completely wraps every muscle fiber and allows ki to penetrate where there is no nerve ending.

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Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
...not all nerve-impulses are "mind," right? Hence the biofeedback practices used to integrate nerves and intent (integrating different nerve impulses)?
I don't think any nerve impulse is the same as mind. A nerve impulse is just an electrical pulse that travels through a nerve fiber. And I think that most nerve actions completely by-pass mind, coming as they do from the autonomous nervous system.

Thanks.

David

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:19 PM   #73
mathewjgano
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Ki travels in the fascia (and the blood and marrow).
Facinating! Thank you, David! Would you say the sensation of ki, however, is based on nerve function?
Take care,
Matt

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-26-2011 at 12:21 PM.

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:19 PM   #74
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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No. Nerve energy can only travel in nerve fibers. There are points where nerves cross meridians and vice versa, so there are some meridian points that correspond with a nerve point, but the fact that meridians don't follow nerves has always been a big factor in scientific efforts to "debunk" ki theories. i travels in the fascia (and the blood and marrow).
Correct. It was fascinating to me the first time I received myofascial therapy many years ago to realize the points being worked all corresponded to acupuncture points along meridians. The myofascial person had no exposure to TCM and didn't realize this until I said something.

For those curious to read more about differing conceptions of anatomy and physiology I strongly wholeheartedly recommend "The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine" by Shigehisa Kuriyama.

Last edited by Janet Rosen : 01-26-2011 at 12:22 PM.

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Old 01-26-2011, 12:27 PM   #75
bkedelen
 
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

I heard that Ki can also be detected with dowsing rods, although it never seems to work when James Randi is around.

Last edited by bkedelen : 01-26-2011 at 12:34 PM.
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