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Old 01-30-2011, 09:11 AM   #251
Upyu
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Okay, video as I promised.

I'll be the first to say, my shikko doesn't look nearly as good as Ark's. I have also only done this exercise twice in my life, for about a total of 60 seconds. If I had a year to practice, I'm sure it would look much better. I wanted to get the video up quickly though, because I promised I would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMHuWiIquTM
Rrm...again Chris, you'd have to get the ratio's right, and do it with someone a lot heavier to simulate the same kind of load/duress. (Remember, Ark's only what...140lb at most?)

That being said, when you do it next time flex the ankle of the leg being raised, and let me know if it changes the stability when you do the exercise.

Not a bad attempt, since you got solid core and leg strength, which is required by IS/IP.

The difference mainly lies in the fact that you're trying to raise your leg by "raising the leg." Ark raises the leg by pushing into the supporting leg with his core, which causes a rebound force that floats the leg that is raised. (There's also a particular look to the legs when they're used as a unit, which yours doesn't have) And so on and so forth. The devil is in the details.
No one ever said just cause you could do the exercise "you have IP"

As for the kokyu-ho demo, you blasted the guy, whereas Ark popped the guy up without the other guy letting go. A seemingly small but extremely "large" difference, which denotes that Ark's forces were connected to the other guy, as opposed to simply overwhelming the other person with superior force.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:27 AM   #252
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
Chris, thank you for your reply. I've been thinking about them (letting them simmer on the back burner while I"m cooking dinner, actually, and writing while actual food simmers....).
From my perspective and mine alone, FWIW:
The exercises I'm working on plus others I hope to learn are all aimed, for me, to the goal of developing a very specific skill set.
What is this specific skill set? What can it achieve that other forms of training you've experience cannot?

Quote:
I'm not aiming to throw people harder or faster but to work on a way to connect with my partner and then undermine him without the types of muscling I have felt in a lot of mainstream aikido.
becoming athletic doesn't mean that you have to use brute force when applying technique. Being stronger, more coordinated, and better conditioned are all assets that can only help you. If you choose to use them to physically force your opponent down, they could be used for that. If you want to use them to move smoothly, in time with your partner, effortlessly bringing the situation to a natural conclusion, being athletic can be used for that.

There is an idea about being athletic that disgusts me. It's the idea that being physically strong makes you stupid, brutish, and thuggish. Nothing could be farther from the truth. An athlete is elegant, graceful, and powerful. Training in athletics develops the mind, strengthens the the will and calms the body. Athletics training teaches one how to completely integrate the body and mind into one coordinated person. Too many of us think back to the high school jock who bullied everyone; you won't turn into him by training athletics.

Quote:
You have provided in answer to me a list of skill sets under the heading of athletic training. Some I know, some I don't. But it strikes me that they are disparate and have different goals, build different types of skills. And I don't see how any of them work on what my understanding of internal power is.
This is at the heart of what we are talking about. What is your understanding of internal power? What will training in it give you that you cannot get from athletics training?

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Old 01-30-2011, 09:40 AM   #253
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Robert John wrote: View Post
Rrm...again Chris, you'd have to get the ratio's right, and do it with someone a lot heavier to simulate the same kind of load/duress. (Remember, Ark's only what...140lb at most?)
Rob,
I've done this twice in my life, I'm not at good at is as Ark. Why does the weight make the IP not work as well? What are the limits on IP? Why do those limits exist?

Quote:

No one ever said just cause you could do the exercise "you have IP"
Okay, but then can you describe to me, why doing it the way Ark does is better, physically, having more applicability than what I did? Why would doing it differently be better than what I did?

Quote:
As for the kokyu-ho demo, you blasted the guy, whereas Ark popped the guy up without the other guy letting go. A seemingly small but extremely "large" difference, which denotes that Ark's forces were connected to the other guy, as opposed to simply overwhelming the other person with superior force.
Hmm, I can do it other ways, but let's let that go for a second. Why would "popping" someone up be better than "blasting" them back? What is more applicable about "popping" than "blasting".

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Old 01-30-2011, 09:59 AM   #254
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hi Chris
There is a difference between explosive power from IP and what you perceive as relaxed power. It is not going to be resolved through discussion.

stan
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:12 AM   #255
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Stan Baker wrote: View Post
Hi Chris
There is a difference between explosive power from IP and what you perceive as relaxed power. It is not going to be resolved through discussion.

stan
Then we shouldn't talk about it?

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Old 01-30-2011, 10:30 AM   #256
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

I said it a few posts back; you have everything you need, your teacher says there is no difference, you are convinced there is no difference, your teacher outlined IP as relaxation and principles in application, and he does so both in books and in video. It seems obvious you are trying to make a case that there is no difference as well which is hampered by the fact that your only exposure to so called internal arts is with one teacher...who...sees no difference.
Seems to me that leaves you back at the starting point.

I wonder though...how is it that your teacher is correct and everyone else is wrong? I had a teacher, a shihan in Aikido, who told me in 1990, that Daito ryu was dead, there was no Daito Ryu anymore.
I'm glad I've always had more of a open mind about things. It seems to have benefitted me in the end.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:04 AM   #257
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Then we shouldn't talk about it?
What's the point of continuous talk that just goes nowhere? I agree with Stan. "Discussions" here will just keep going in circles unless and until you actually go and get some hands-on time with the people who are openly teaching and training IP.

To a man (and woman), everyone on AikiWeb who has done this has come back to engage in enthusiastic conversation, comparing notes, asking questions and getting feedback. It's so much more productive than speaking from an uninformed position.

Discovering that "it's different" can definitely force one to step outside his or her comfort zone, especially if it means having to re-think everything that one has held true, for years. But anyone willing to take that chance may well find that they will gain much more than they lose in that discovery.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:48 AM   #258
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Chris, I'm bowing out because we are going in pointless circles now; I have never had interest in trying to convince you but in replying to your question as it applies to my experience, training and goals; you are now ascribing beliefs to me I've never stated or inferred regarding athletes and sports. Caio.

Janet Rosen
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:38 PM   #259
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Hi Chris

If you get some direct experience, then you can have some meaningful discussion.

stan
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:22 PM   #260
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Then we shouldn't talk about it?
What's to discuss? It's like talking about a restaurant you haven't visited or a movie you haven't seen. Beyond a certain point -- which I think we've already reached -- there just isn't enough shared experience.

Katherine
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:45 PM   #261
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
It's like talking about a restaurant you haven't visited or a movie you haven't seen. Beyond a certain point -- which I think we've already reached -- there just isn't enough shared experience.
I don't think that point has been reached.

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Old 01-30-2011, 03:58 PM   #262
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
There is an idea about being athletic that disgusts me. It's the idea that being physically strong makes you stupid, brutish, and thuggish. Nothing could be farther from the truth. An athlete is elegant, graceful, and powerful. Training in athletics develops the mind, strengthens the the will and calms the body. Athletics training teaches one how to completely integrate the body and mind into one coordinated person. Too many of us think back to the high school jock who bullied everyone; you won't turn into him by training athletics.
I've met no one (that I know of) who believes athletics makes jerks. I've met quite a bit more who believe jerks are attracted to competitive events (due to a need to prove something) and that athletics is a common place to find competitive events. Speaking as a competitor and athlete, I would agree with the latter. I've known plenty of chess-playing jerks...of course, many of them were fairly jaded by their abuse at the hands and mouths of jocks, but I digress.
I disagree that athletics teaches one how to completely integrate body and mind. I also disagree that "internals" do the same (key word being "completely"). Integration of some variety or another can come about through either and the specific things being integrated will vary between the two.
"Superior" is a tough term to work around because it's not as simple as one being better than the other. It depends on how it's being applied and how it relates to the rest of the individual's life. I disagree that "internals" is automatically better than "externals," but from what very little I think I've encountered, I do think it can make a big difference...particularly over the long haul where athletic ability will necessarily decline. From what I've gathered, internals are a bit more long-term in the ability to maintain one's prowess.
There is no way of knowing without direct exposure...and even that doesn't prove anything other than, possibly, a superior ability at specific tasks.
That all said, I should be clear I don't have much experience with internals. I believe I have some, but it's all relative and I don't have much developed with which to hold a comparison to other methods.

I think Dan's remarks about "soft" wrestlers speaks volumes about comparative functionality/superiority. That we don't see anyone in the professional levels of things making any claims about internals is also somewhat telling, though competitive professionals would have an invested interest in not sharing. Perhaps down the line we'll see folks attributing their ability to these kinds of practices, but as of yet it seems high-level athletics is easier to do...and certainly more prevalent.
Internals are just another approach with their own pros and cons. There seems to be something to the idea that it's helpful to consider them on their own (and not automatically connected to higher-level athletic training). These folks whose names keep getting mentioned seem to have approaches within that field which sound particularly functional. One more tool in the box to choose from, and like with my Makita power drill, the grape-vine of hype is probably on to something...it's certainly long enough.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 01-30-2011 at 04:05 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:47 PM   #263
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

"What's to discuss? It's like talking about a restaurant you haven't visited or a movie you haven't seen. Beyond a certain point -- which I think we've already reached -- there just isn't enough shared experience."

Well its not like there are a lot of you out there kicking ass and taking names......and as long as there is vetting of people's backgrounds and not including people because of their associations.....maybe it's a restaurant where I don't necessarily want to eat.
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:56 PM   #264
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

And considering said restaurant is not ranked in Michelin, Mobil Travel, AAA or similar guides...

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Old 01-30-2011, 04:58 PM   #265
Cady Goldfield
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Mark,
It seems to me that there are enough people teaching the basics, internationally, that there are ample opportunities to get out there and experience it.

And, it's not necessary to go to someone who is "kicking ass and taking names." Just someone who can demonstrate and introduce you to what this stuff is, how it is beneficial -- what you can do with it -- and how to put it back into your aikido or whatever MA you train in.

Heck, how will you know whether a restaurant is worth eating at till you at least go for appetizers.

Demetrio,
A lot of "hidden gems" have not yet been discovered by Michelin or the other guides. You have to depend on the "locals" to point you to them. And nowadays, they will do that! Back in the olden days, the locals would just keep it to themselves so their favorite places wouldn't get overrun with tourists and curiosity-seekers, and the locals would have to wait in line for a table.

Last edited by Cady Goldfield : 01-30-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:48 PM   #266
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Well, to sum up... not a single person that has done the type of training under discussion who posts here or with whom I am familiar, came away saying either "it was nothing special, we always did that" nor has a single one come away saying that he or she couldn't see how the work would make you Aikido better.

The only folks who are consistently doubting what has been asserted about Internal Training are folks who simply have not had ANY hands on with any of the folks who are mentioned here as the sources of experience for the rest of us.

Now someone may have trained with some teacher whom they believe is doing the same thing. Not having seen said other teacher, I couldn't comment. But the opinions expressed would say to me that no, what that teacher is doing is not the same as what Mike, Dan or Ark are doing. Because not one person who has trained with them thinks it is a standard set of athletic skills that can be train ed in the ordinary fashion. It is just not the case.

I have a certified trainer I work with at my gym. I have talked to her about the internal training and how it works. She is quite interested but it is clear that nothing in her experience covers this. It is different. She trains athletes, she is quite knowledgeable about how that is done. She stays up to date on the latest techniques and research. And as far as I can tell, there is nothing in her realm of experience that is equivalent.

So I too bow out... there is no way we can maintain the conversation between folks who have had direct exposure to the topic at hand and folks who have not. It's not like these guys are keeping this stuff secret. They are increasingly out there all over the place teaching, even internationally. Try it out and then come back and tell us you still feel you were right. I'll respect that.

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Old 01-30-2011, 06:01 PM   #267
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I wonder though...how is it that your teacher is correct and everyone else is wrong?
Dan
Dan,
I would like to reiterate for, the third time now I believe, this discussion does not come from my teacher, it comes from me.

Who is "everyone"? By everyone do you mean the people who like your stuff? If this is the case, than you are correct. However if by everyone you mean the whole of the internal martial arts world, than you are in pretty deep waters, and that generalization is a foolish one to make.

Your group is a small group when compared to the rest of the marital arts community, it's far from everyone. Although you do try very hard to make it seem like a much larger group than it is. Speaking of my teacher, he has a MUCH larger seminar schedule each year than you do. He has authored many books, and has a rather large student base these days. If it's a matter of numbers that will sway your opinion, I'm sure you have fewer.

But none of this matters, not really. It seems to be of great importance to you though.

I would rather not speak of my teacher, or who has some kind of political advantage. I would rather speak to what is right in front of us. After all, it doesn't really matter if you have millions agreeing with you, if you can't do what you claim to.

We've come to a point in this discussion, where everyone is pretty much saying, "Okay already, I don't care who's right, I just like doing this stuff". I think that's cool, I think you should do whatever makes you happy, and makes you excited to come to class the next day. A little mystery in your life is awesome. And the idea of a mystical teacher who can do all sorts of seemingly amazing feats is fun!

However if you're going to say that Aikido is missing something without this elusive, mysterious, must be felt thing, I'm going to question it. If that makes you sad, than please, openly discuss it, show some videos, speak directly to the questions, and help us understand. If your stand point is simply that you like it, the quit trying to claim that Aikido is missing something without the guidance of your ilk.

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Old 01-30-2011, 06:15 PM   #268
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Chris, have you even tried to read the other posts? Where does anyone say "I don't care who's right - it's fun!"? Looks more to me like people are saying, "Hey, Chris! We can't have a fruitful discussion with you until you at least go train even once with Dan, Mike or Ark." George Ledyard just said that if you were to do so, and still felt that athletic body methods and "IS/IP" body methods are the same, he'd respect that. I think the rest of the folks here would, too.

It's not about whether it's fun, Chris, it's whether this stuff is fundamentally different than the physical training paradigm you are familiar with. That was the purpose of this thread, right? It is different, but you will never be convinced by words nor -- I promise you -- by videos. You really need to bite the bullet and try a first-hand experience training with one of these people to inform your decision.

Till then, this thread may as well be closed for business. Unless, of course, you want to talk about restaurants.
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:21 PM   #269
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

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Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Rob,
I've done this twice in my life, I'm not at good at is as Ark. Why does the weight make the IP not work as well? What are the limits on IP? Why do those limits exist?
Chris, I was merely saying that if you wanted to recreate the parameters, you'd have to match the ratio of weight as well. It's kinda like I sent someone to the gym on a powerlifting routine, extolled on the virtues of increased strength and what not, and they pick up a 10lb barbell, say "see I can do that too? so what possible benefit could it be to me to do this?"

IP is still strength + skill, just strength of a different kind. It uses the muscles, fascia and what have you, but with some tweaks that take some proprioceptive coaching.
IE there are still going to be physical limits imposed by how big a person's body is, their base strength capabilities etc. Put another way, all things being equal in IS/IP, Person A (let's say who weighs 200lb) would have an advantage over Person B (this is just physics). But if Person B has IP/IS and Person A doesn't, then it (not will absolutely) gives Person B a strength/skill advantage that CAN (notice I didn't say "will") tip the scales in Person B's favor.

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Okay, but then can you describe to me, why doing it the way Ark does is better, physically, having more applicability than what I did? Why would doing it differently be better than what I did?
Well, done correctly it improves balance from odd angles, has applicability towards kicks, strikes and what not.
The whole "push down into the supporting leg to cause the other leg to rise" is a skill you'd use for throwing, the use of the core when bringing the leg down has multiple applications in enhancing the power of strikes from odd angles etc etc.

The way you're doing it now is simply an exercise in balance, strength and structure (not bad attributes to develop anyways).

Quote:
Chris Hein wrote: View Post
Hmm, I can do it other ways, but let's let that go for a second. Why would "popping" someone up be better than "blasting" them back? What is more applicable about "popping" than "blasting".
You lose control over a guy, and if said opponent weighs as much or more than you, those kind of tricks tend to fall flat on their face. Its better to retain control of the person's balance. In the event that you mess up, you at least won't have dug your own ditch to hurl yourself into
AFWIW, you should probably be able to blast the guy you were working with way more, given the strength differences between you two. There's a couple simple mechanics you could add (if someone showed you how to do so) that could increase your power pretty easily in about 6 months of training or so.
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:28 PM   #270
Mark Mueller
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

"Mark,
It seems to me that there are enough people teaching the basics, internationally, that there are ample opportunities to get out there and experience it.

And, it's not necessary to go to someone who is "kicking ass and taking names." Just someone who can demonstrate and introduce you to what this stuff is, how it is beneficial -- what you can do with it -- and how to put it back into your aikido or whatever MA you train in."

Cady, I have been fortunate enough to have been exposed to Mike S. and Ark...and a few of their students. Great guys, great stuff...but they leave it our there for you to decide..and given the opportunity to learn from them again I would jump at the chance. I've done the homework I know my preferences...
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:58 PM   #271
Michael Varin
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Rob John wrote:
IP is still strength + skill, just strength of a different kind. It uses the muscles, fascia and what have you, but with some tweaks that take some proprioceptive coaching.
IE there are still going to be physical limits imposed by how big a person's body is, their base strength capabilities etc. Put another way, all things being equal in IS/IP, Person A (let's say who weighs 200lb) would have an advantage over Person B (this is just physics). But if Person B has IP/IS and Person A doesn't, then it (not will absolutely) gives Person B a strength/skill advantage that CAN (notice I didn't say "will") tip the scales in Person B's favor.
Hmm. This thread, which nearly imploded, did a complete one eighty and developed into a substantive discussion, is getting interesting. And people are bailing out now! It seems that we are on the verve of penetrating the "IP/IT/IS" discussion that has been going on here for a few years to new depths.

By the way, any number of things CAN tip the scales.

-Michael
"Through aiki we can feel the mind of the enemy who comes to attack and are thus able to respond immediately." - M. Mochizuki
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:04 PM   #272
Keith Larman
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Well, I can't bow out yet since I never bowed in. So a passing post...

I was recently talking with a friend of mine who has something like 30 years experience in aikido (outside of our group). He knew I had been to seminars by Threadgill, Harden and Sigman. And that I've been lucky enough to have met and trained a bit with students of Ark and Kuroda. Still working on meeting Popkin and Ushiro in person, but if finances allow... So he asked me about what was going on. So I tried to give him a bit of a run-down of the basic gist of the argument.

First off he pointed out that the whole premise of this internal stuff forces a reappraisal of what "aiki" really means, at least for a lot of people. And I think that is actually quite true. Many have great reservations because it seems like people are talking about different things, redefining what we already "know". FWIW I find this a fascinating topic as I am greatly interested in theories of meaning, communication, and what is sometimes called the philosophy of ordinary language (although this is anything but ordinary).

So, Chris, humor me for a minute.

Let's assume that Takeda and Ueshiba Morihei were in fact doing "aiki" in a sense more congruent with the models proposed by guys like Dan H et al. Early on Aikido was not exactly an art widely practiced. It wasn't a dojo in every "strip mall". It was exclusive and especially early on it was quite a "exclusive" thing. One great description I heard once was calling it a "finishing school" for martial artists. Those early deshi came in with extensive backgrounds and often multiple introductions. These were not beginners, not by any stretch.

Now let's also look at another idea... One proposed by Ellis Amdur in his book "Hidden in Plain Sight" (buy it, read it, if for no other reason but to support independent and valuable research). Here you see a possibility where these skills (if we assume these are the skills we are talking about) were developed by these people after extensive, high level training. That even taking repeated high level ukemi helped train the body in a certain way conducive to building long connections of muscle, tendon, fascia, etc. that could be used in a unified way, somewhat differently from how an athlete might approach it. In other words, a body that could do things in vastly more refined, subtle fashion with more control and sensitivity. The idea here is that this is *not* the body we're born with. It is not the body we build by lifting weights or running more. It's a body that's built via hard, specific work to learn to establish the structures, then learn to use them in a specific way.

Okay... What if some of these early deshi, through hard work, prior training, and in many cases going outside their arts (yoga, etc.) developed these bodies. Take Tohei as an example. He starts talking about "extending ki", "weight underside", etc. All attempts to communicate what he's feeling in his body as he does what he does. There is no thought of fascia, they likely didn't even know what the stuff was. So they're trying to communicate the "it" they feel as they do their stuff. Aiki. Unification. Oneness. Now when you have "aiki" you can "feel" their "one-point" and drop them over there. Because you are "one". Aiki. All good so far, right?

Okay, now consider students who don't have these structures. Who don't have the build, the training, and all the years put in to developing the skills. They hear "aiki". Oneness. The teachers have no idea that they developed this ability through aspects of their training. They just "felt it" one day and it clicked to some level or another. So while they took 10 or 20 years of hard daily practice to develop that body they don't realize that what they're feeling may in fact *be* a direct result of that 10-20 years of hard daily practice. Literally. In other words, the students without that body cannot possibly hope to "feel" what they're feeling because they simply don't have the conditioning required to feel it.

To the teacher not aware that the things they feel are a result of the these odd physical manifestations it is perplexing why the students can't feel what they feel. It's obvious, right? Just relax and connect. Easy, peasy. Of course it *is* easy for them -- they've got the structures, body and practice. But for the students, they don't have that background. They don't have the body. They don't have the structures. And no amount of adjusting foot positioning or placement is going to help.

But of course many techniques are based on sound jujutsu. The body only works so many ways. So we do what these teachers tell us. We relax (but we're not the same). We try to be solid (but we're not the same). And we move in a certain way (but it just ain't the same).

So naturally over time the "meaning" of works like aiki begin to reflect the "omote" meaning, at least in a sense. And Aikido grows in leaps and bounds. And dojo open up left and right. And kids programs start. Beginners start in martial arts in aikido. And because they never build the structures, the body, the awareness, the "meaning" of these terms become more focused on the omote. So for many the athletic version of aikido is the "powerful" aikido. Young, tough people toss each other around with strength and determination.

I am not placing a qualitative judgement on this. I think Aikido's greatest strength and paradoxically greatest weakness is its popularity. It evolved. It morphed. It became a lot of things to a lot of people.

But... What if these guys are right? I've felt some pretty amazing things done by guys like Dan, Toby and Mike. Things I've felt parts of with some Shihan I've been lucky enough to train with who have 30+ years of solid training.

For me the question is whether I should devote the time to learn the skills these guys are teaching. In each case of hands-on I was left with a rather "no question left" reaction. I find this stuff valuable. Because I think it enables a more refined, subtle, and truly interesting view into this stuff.

But... Aikido did evolve tremendously. And even if you grant me the assumptions of this post it *still* doesn't mean you need to agree. Because even if you agree with my assumptions, the meaning did evolve over time. And as Dan has pointed out, if you are happy with what you are doing, well, by all means -- that's great. I think there is value across the board for different people.

But I've met very few experienced martial artists who hold that view after spending some time playing with this. There is something there.

And finally... I have had people show me work they've done on swords asking me for my opinion as an "expert" (not something I'd actually call myself, but there you go). Many will demand to know why they are wrong. I will often suggest that they really need to get out and study the old stuff in person, hands-on, to really understand how they were done. It is a huge undertaking and most will never put in the effort. But some will still insist on me telling them how they are wrong. They insist that I need to explain to them to *their* satisfaction why it is that they really don't know what they're talking about. All while in the next breath they will say they've never really studied the real deal in hand. In that case, I'm sorry, they simply don't know enough to even begin to understand how wrong they are.

I'm not saying you are in that same category. But, until you actually get out and feel the stuff, well, you're insisting that someone teach you enough to change your mind all while you refuse to learn enough to make it even possible. The value of this stuff is completely independent of what you may understand or choose to learn. It is what it is. Get out and get hands-on. And I'd love to talk again at that point. Because I'd truly, sincerely be interested in what you had to say.

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Old 01-30-2011, 08:39 PM   #273
Michael Hackett
Dojo: Kenshinkan Dojo (Aikido of North County) Vista, CA
Location: Oceanside, California
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,129
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Keith, a bright ray of sunshine on a rainy day. Well written.

Michael
"Leave the gun. Bring the cannoli."
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:07 PM   #274
gregstec
Dojo: Aiki Kurabu
Location: Elizabethtown, PA
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,110
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Interesting discussions - to me this can all be summed up to the fact that we all are on the path of trying to understand budo. There will always be someone ahead of you on that path and always someone behind you. Those ahead should try to shed light on what they have learned and experienced for those behind - those behind should have the wisdom to embrace that light in the chance that it may shorten their journey - those that dismiss those that have gone before are guaranteed the long journey.

Greg
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:32 AM   #275
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,910
Spain
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Re: Why do you perceive "internal" superior to athleticism?

Quote:
Cady Goldfield wrote: View Post
Demetrio,
A lot of "hidden gems" have not yet been discovered by Michelin or the other guides. You have to depend on the "locals" to point you to them. And nowadays, they will do that! Back in the olden days, the locals would just keep it to themselves so their favorite places wouldn't get overrun with tourists and curiosity-seekers, and the locals would have to wait in line for a table.
Have been the chefs and the customers of that "hidden gems" spreading flyers around for about the last ten years?

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