Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-05-2012, 03:32 PM   #1
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Aikido attacks.

I have read many opinions on the way of attacks in aikido, the tsuki etc. So many saying that the 'hanging the arm out there' is wrong, is not in any other martial art, is ridiculous, is..............

Too many reasons yet in my view not enough understanding.

As usual the justifications come in as to why such attacking is unreal and some even go as far as to say 'limp' and ineffective. Oh yea of little faith is what I say.

The first point that is continually brought up is commitment, the idea that such attacks are not committed attacks. Another fallacy I say due to once again a lack of understanding of Aikido.

Now it takes time to develop and be able to do such an attack whilst keeping center and at the same time extending Ki or power through but nonetheless the attack is a tsuki or shomen or yokomen etc.

There is no need to compare to boxing or anything else that bounces too and fro or jostles in and out or thrusts and counter thrusts or ducks and weaves or anything really, no need at all. For they are not Aikido and the attacks in Aikido are unique and unique for a reason. Does anyone know what that reason is?

Once again I am going out on a limb here, (limb being the operative word ha, ha) but this time I am not going to say what the reason is but leave it as a question. So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 04:35 PM   #2
DodgingRain
 
DodgingRain's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 31
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Awesome.

..but what happens if a boxer or trained striker is head hunting you?
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 04:56 PM   #3
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,950
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.
I strongly disagree.
There is a reason that EVERY decent aikido instructor I've ever been on the mat with, from any style or lineage, in everything from beginners class to advanced seminar, explicitly talks about having BOTH arms/hands engaged and "live."
Part of it, yes, is martial and self-defense effectiveness.

But even if your avowed goal in learning and teaching aikido is spiritual rather than martial....
the integrity of the body/mind system, awareness of self/universe, connecting with one's partner ALL require the ability to be aware of one's entire body: front, back, up, down, left and right. Unless one lacks the limb or has had neurological damage to it (stroke, other disorder), a disengaged and limp extremity is a symptom of a disengaged, non-integrated system choosing to be self-impaired.

Easy to test. Try a simple irimi-tenkan kokyu-ho throw (forgetting the name of the exercise since it's not called that where I train now....) with the ungrabbed arm limply sitting versus engaged. It feels like working less than 1/2 a body.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 05:28 PM   #4
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,919
Spain
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.
In some aikido styles, but not in others.

Quote:
2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.
And?
Quote:
3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.
The basic reason is?

Quote:
4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.
The basic reason you mentioned before?


Ah, I got it...

The answer to the question "Does anyone know what that reason is?" is developing aikido practitioners who are incompetent as martial artists

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 05:30 PM   #5
sakumeikan
Dojo: Sakumeikan N.E. Aikkai .Newcastle upon Tyne.
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,157
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
I have read many opinions on the way of attacks in aikido, the tsuki etc. So many saying that the 'hanging the arm out there' is wrong, is not in any other martial art, is ridiculous, is..............

Too many reasons yet in my view not enough understanding.

As usual the justifications come in as to why such attacking is unreal and some even go as far as to say 'limp' and ineffective. Oh yea of little faith is what I say.

The first point that is continually brought up is commitment, the idea that such attacks are not committed attacks. Another fallacy I say due to once again a lack of understanding of Aikido.

Now it takes time to develop and be able to do such an attack whilst keeping center and at the same time extending Ki or power through but nonetheless the attack is a tsuki or shomen or yokomen etc.

There is no need to compare to boxing or anything else that bounces too and fro or jostles in and out or thrusts and counter thrusts or ducks and weaves or anything really, no need at all. For they are not Aikido and the attacks in Aikido are unique and unique for a reason. Does anyone know what that reason is?

Once again I am going out on a limb here, (limb being the operative word ha, ha) but this time I am not going to say what the reason is but leave it as a question. So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.
Dear Graham,
Come on be a good lad Graham and tell us answer to the question. Cheers, Joe
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:01 PM   #6
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Janet Rosen wrote: View Post
I strongly disagree.
There is a reason that EVERY decent aikido instructor I've ever been on the mat with, from any style or lineage, in everything from beginners class to advanced seminar, explicitly talks about having BOTH arms/hands engaged and "live."
Part of it, yes, is martial and self-defense effectiveness.

But even if your avowed goal in learning and teaching aikido is spiritual rather than martial....
the integrity of the body/mind system, awareness of self/universe, connecting with one's partner ALL require the ability to be aware of one's entire body: front, back, up, down, left and right. Unless one lacks the limb or has had neurological damage to it (stroke, other disorder), a disengaged and limp extremity is a symptom of a disengaged, non-integrated system choosing to be self-impaired.

Easy to test. Try a simple irimi-tenkan kokyu-ho throw (forgetting the name of the exercise since it's not called that where I train now....) with the ungrabbed arm limply sitting versus engaged. It feels like working less than 1/2 a body.
Nothing to disagree with. Both arms would be 'live' , 3mph live or fast live. No undermining of integrity of of body/mind coordination. No undermining of awareness either.

That move you describe can be done one handed too, very difficult but nonetheless true.

So I'm not talking about 'nothing there' for I have said they are 'strikes'

I am also not talking about internal or mind/body coordination for if a person is advanced enough at that then a mere tap or prod would be enough to cause great effect. No, I am talking why? Why such attacks in Aikido? There are not many when you think about it. Plus, on their own as tsuki, shomen, yokomen, there is no emphsasis on 'meanwhile guard with your other hand' In fact I would get someone to keep their other hand or arm well out of the way even if 'live'.

Two hands 'live' is in fact more pertinent to uke than to nage in most respects.

I seek only to establish why? To know the why? of such attacks in Aikido. The real why?

This why? also gives a nice differentiation as to why it is martial and has nothing to do with competing or fighting. My view of it anyway.

I shall read the other responses and then explain my point of view.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:03 PM   #7
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Brett Zimmerman wrote: View Post
Awesome.

..but what happens if a boxer or trained striker is head hunting you?
In my view then you do Aikido, what else?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:04 PM   #8
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
In some aikido styles, but not in others.

And?

The basic reason is?

The basic reason you mentioned before?

Ah, I got it...

The answer to the question "Does anyone know what that reason is?" is developing aikido practitioners who are incompetent as martial artists
Nice try Demetrio, oh isn't this fun?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 07:08 PM   #9
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Joe Curran wrote: View Post
Dear Graham,
Come on be a good lad Graham and tell us answer to the question. Cheers, Joe
O.K. Joe, how could I resist such an old school request ha, ha. I shall do so in my next post.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:46 PM   #10
robin_jet_alt
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 537
Australia
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
O.K. Joe, how could I resist such an old school request ha, ha. I shall do so in my next post.

Regards.G.
Waiting with baited breath.... not sure that I understood the question though
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:52 PM   #11
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

O.K. Excuse me for my little bit of fun but it was also because it's one of those things that I read about on here and yet the reasons I never agree with so I was moved to express such.

Many a person or student, especially from another art have said to me in the past 'yeah but' Such a common statement when it comes to Aikido attacks. They are usually followed by 'then I would do this or that' for you leave yourself open and the usual comments.

As an aside the same thing happens with nikkyo or or whatever. The experienced person from another art says do that again and proceeds to do all kinds of clever manoevers. However, this is just another example of me saying to the person, woah there buddy, I am showing you nikkyo for you to learn how to do it, not to show how clever you are. This would then be followed by, 'Now if you want me to show you nikkyo and give you the right to counter it how you please then prepare for the consequences but in so doing you will not learn how to do it but merely suffer the consequence. At least the effectiveness will then be felt.

Now, attacks. Aikido attacks. What do they represent? This is the first thing to recognise.

It can only be recognised by looking from the viewpoint of energy or power if you like coming at you.

Until you recognise this then you are wasting your time.

Next is to recognise that this power or energy is coming at you along a predetermined path. To know these paths is to know the attack.

For instance Shomen: A cut down and through. Energy coming at you from up to down along center line

Yokomen: Energy (with attendant mass) coming at you on the diagonal.

Tsuki: Energy coming at you straight through center line.

Note that the straight through tsuki is a straight line of power. The yokomen is actually circular in effect as is the shomen. (like the hands of a clock)

So these are motions and Aikido being a harmonious martial art deals with motion, harmonizing with motion.

So we have here harmonizing with straight line energy and harmonizing with circular energy.

We have here thus the basics of the straight jab in boxing, the roundhouse kick, the right hook, and all other strikes for they are merely versions of the above. They are straight or they are curved.

With circular you enter into the center of the circle or else keep outside the circle. With straight line you irimi to enter or via ma ai once again you keep out of range. They are the hard to learn simplicities.

But now back to the basic. So far we see they 'represent' types of attack motion wise. Even the spear is straight through, the sword is circular, etc. Aikido as a martial art.

Aikido is a discipline and it is stated that there is no fighting in Aikido. Aikido has a little mentioned thing called ma ai. When faced by a person feigning to do this or that, boxing, kung fu, whatever, in other words when trying to be drawn into a fight the the discipline of Aikido says keep ma ai. Thus no fight.

Meanwhile the discipline says stay calm, relaxed, zanshin, centered and the rest of it whilst keeping ma ai and wait for an 'opening' to enter and finish the encounter. No fighting, no give and take rigmorole, no clever tactics, no rolling around, no sparring, wait, enter, finish. That is the martial of Aikido and differenciates martial from fighting and competition for me.

Which brings us to the point rather nicely. When waiting for the opening, when using ma ai, what exactly are you waiting for? This word 'opening' is far too vague a term really from an Aikido perspective. Far too open to various high foluted opinions. You are not actually waiting for an opening so in truth what are you waiting for?

You are waiting for commitment. Aikido deals with commitment. Someone bouncing around in front of you doing all kinds of feints and rubbish has not yet committed and it is only the committed attack Aikido is interested in.

Commitment means motion through. Through where? Through you.

So it doesn't mean loud shout or power punching or hitting even, it means doing so with motion through. This doesn't mean through with the strike only it means through with yourself also, the rest of your body.

We used to say albeit probably incorrectly, that anyone punching through and yet the body stopping was doing a karate tsuki, not Aikido for Aikido is carry on through. We would say he who doesn't is dead and that they have earthed their Ki and thus easy to handle.

Any true swordsmsn does not cut and stop. they cut on their way through.

In Aikido tsuki you do not just hit through you carry on through to the 'wall' This is commitment, it is complete.

Thus it can be done at walking pace. You can tsuki through and carry on 'walking' through very slowly even. It may look crazy from the outside but you are getting the nage to deal with continued motion and power, to deal with commitment.

So commitment is moving on through and out the other side and that is all. The attacks in Aikido should represent this and this rules out hitting at or even doing to for it is doing through.

So what does Aikido do? It deals only with that point of commitment, nothing else. Aikido harmonizes with the point of commitment.

The attack therefore be it slow or fast represents commitment, non stopping motion through, the whole body, going from point 'a' through to point 'b'

If someone says to me to demonstrate tsuki, even slowly then I am moving from center (point 'a') on through to the wall twenty feet away (point 'b') and thus I carry on moving until I reach that point. The other persons body is of no significance.

In this way in Aikido you learn to deal with the unstopping motion and you learn to know when one is and when one isn't. It's not a matter of ferocity or strength but purely motion through.

In other words you enter the others space, circle in order to strike and you should end up out the other side of their space, this is commitment, this is the Aikido attack.

These are my thoughts and views.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:55 PM   #12
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Your point is clear and I agree in essence, however for me it is not quite the end of the story.
For example should we be able to face a fast stabbing motion, which doesn't continue through, but rather, is sharp and recoils as quickly as it was delivered?
If you only practice one way.......

Enjoy the journey
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 03:01 AM   #13
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Your point is clear and I agree in essence, however for me it is not quite the end of the story.
For example should we be able to face a fast stabbing motion, which doesn't continue through, but rather, is sharp and recoils as quickly as it was delivered?
If you only practice one way.......
Good question. The simple answer is yes. The premise is that this 'one way' as you call it is very universal in essence and thus in my opinion perfectly designed for all types of attacks, for it is as I said based on motion. The knife stabbing motion and indeed slashing motion is still only motion.

My best answer with a degree of reality is just such an event a few months ago where that question was posed at the end of training due to one person showing some knife moves using a tanto.

This led to the group asking me how Aikido should deal with that. As usual I said, 'I don't know, let's see'

I started by facing the opponent and moving with every stab and slash he made, just keeping ma-ai basically whilst studying the the 'opponent' and 'way of the knife' so to speak. I then said for him to stop and because I was laughing they wondered what I had realized.

I said I wanted to try something first as the motions of the knife wealder reminded me of a snake.I then asked him to 'go for it again' and proceeded to move differently from before. This time I was joining in with the rhythm and as he quickly stabbed and recoiled this time I had his wrist nice and cleanly. I did that twice in succession and then explained what I had done.

I told them that what I did there was not strictly Aikido but more like kung fu. Viewing only the rhythm and motions which then looked just like those of a snake I had laughed and decided I would be like a mongoose. It worked. Both times it worked and both times I had the snake by the neck.

I then proceeded by saying 'o.k. now that was fun but now I will use Aikido'

Both times in that demo I did as described above in the last post. I waited (ma ai,). entered and took him out. Wait, enter, finish. The martial side of Aikido. My aim was not to fight the knife or avoid the knife or pay much attention to it at all really except to acknowledge it's danger. My focus was on harmonizing with the motion and in so doing entering and finishing. My focus there is not the knife but the source of the knife only.

So that's not an example of a master knife man or even me, it's given as an example of the above post.

May I add here too that Aikido motion is key. Aikido motion or the philosophy and rules thereof say that the one initial motion should take you to a position of safety and put the 'opponent' in a position of 'done for' at the same time. This is Aikido. The fight is over before it's begun.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 03:08 AM   #14
gates
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 193
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Oh the old mongoose defense. Very good.
But this did require a trial run. On the street is it not likely you can say " hold on I need to work which animal to personify"

Better to have already engrained the Mongoose defense. Which requires practice, no?

Last edited by gates : 02-06-2012 at 03:21 AM.

Enjoy the journey
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 03:47 AM   #15
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Keith Gates wrote: View Post
Oh the old mongoose defense. Very good.
But this did require a trial run. On the street is it not likely you can say " hold on I need to work which animal to personify"

Better to have already engrained the Mongoose defense. Which requires practice, no?
Pardon? Forget the mongoose. The mongoose thing was fun, not Aikido. The Aikido took no practice.

Dojo or street makes no difference, ma-ai, enter, finish. That's the martial side of Aikido, any motion of attack, anywhere, anytime. A high degree of skill needed, small steps long journey, but nonetheless that is the Aim martially. Thus better to engrain the principles of Aikido first.

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 07:58 AM   #16
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,816
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Someone's going to take all this advice and end up on the bad end of an almighty beat-down because they expect things to magically come together when needed without any prior practice.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 08:06 AM   #17
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Someone's going to take all this advice and end up on the bad end of an almighty beat-down because they expect things to magically come together when needed without any prior practice.
Oh dear. Note above I said it's better to get the principles ingrained first. (small steps long journey?)

Of course, anyone could do any style and think they are ready and get a good beat down because they think it is already together.

Levels of competence? Need it be said?

Regards.G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:10 AM   #18
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

I see nothing to be gained martially, Ki wise, or aiki wise, in anything outlined here. Worse when it is outlined authoritatively as in ...we who disagree don't get it. I might suggest that in my own experience everyone who ever taught or advocated that type of practice has ended up on their backs in a split second or literally taken apart in a myriad of ways. It is not....budo. It is something else, apart from the teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, who was a budo man. Those speaking of his methods yet display none of his abilities, only continue to demonstrate that what they "say" has little actual value.

Again IME, there are a host of practices done in the name of budo that are done by fearful people rationalizing in every way possible why they shy away from force on force contact. In the end the practice is usually exposed for what it is. I prefer those who practice this way, but who do so with honesty, with no illusion, those who know they would get totally owned by capable men, yet enjoy their cooperative interaction. There is no helping the self-deluded who truly believe what they are doing has anything at all to do with the world of Budo. Well, there was, but that method is frowned upon these days.

What has happened to Budo in this generation is a great sadness. Budo was self-correcting, as idiots showed up with lofty ideas backed up by Fauntleroy skills they were done away with rapidly, so you never need worry about them contaminating the value and reputation of the arts. Even at advanced expert levels you had senior teachers out there testing senior teachers. It is one area in which the Japanese could take a lesson from the Chinese. It is not only acceptable, it is encouraged to challenge people speaking authoritatively and or teaching, to walk up and test them in some agreed upon fashion. Of course it was not usually an all out fight, but it didn't need to be to make the point.

Today you have those with insipid skills, impressing others with even less skill, who then become teachers, and manage their supposed "budo" careers by never getting in a situation to be challenged by any one other than their own students! One of the best things that could ever happen to Budo would be to have the politically correct mores suspended, the old founders show up and challenge....and clean house.

Put or shut up has been a staple for a very long time. I think many people in the traditional arts really don't have anything worth listening to, much less following anymore. It is obvious in video, the written word and in feel, that they have been going through the motions for far too long. Putting them to the test, would be the best thing to ever happen to Budo.
a. Everyone who dared to speak authoritatively would know what the consequences would be.
b. The arts themselves would be strengthened by the elimination of bad ideas and worthless methods, while those with brilliant approaches-either traditional or innovative- will stand on their own merits.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-06-2012 at 10:25 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:37 AM   #19
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Edit:
It is worthy to note-yet again- that Ueshiba himself adopted and forwarded "The put up or shut up..." method. Were Budo people to follow that ideal, there would be fewer of us...but we would be better, and the arts would be better for it. The arts are supposed to be greater than us.
In fact, were Ueshiba not known for taking challanges. None of you would be here. It is his Budo that made his reputation with people from outside of his dojo who attacked him, people who sometimes go hurt.
He did it -by his own words- with internal power and Aiki.
Instead of borrowing his reputation...make one yourselves the same way he did: Put up or shut up. Most of those we admire have actually done that in rooms with people other than their own students.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 02-06-2012 at 10:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:58 AM   #20
sorokod
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Perhaps these "hanging the arm out there' "attacks" are misunderstood / degenerate form of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8&t=3m20s ?

  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #21
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 894
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post

...So in summary I am saying the following:

1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.

3) Whether done at 3 miles per hour or fifty, with great power or without, it all fits the basic reason.

4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.

Thoughts?

Regards.G.
1. Attacks that provide a clear line and provide nage with energy for interaction are not incorrect. The ability to provide that attack with limitation to the [over]extension of uke and the ability to withdraw or continue the attack in another direction is a direct reflection on uke's competence in martial engagement. While not wrong, I think it is better to advocate that uke's who are limited in their ability to continue an attack should work to improve that deficiency.

2. Strikes in all martial are are generally intended to strike the opponent and solicit a response. The limitation of nage to deal with a stylized attack is a reflection of his competency in martial engagement. Again, saying that aikido people do not have to be competent to deal with stylized attacks from other arts is not wrong, but I would advocate that aikido people should learn to deal with any kind of attack.

3. No. Here I think we have difference. Any attack must posses intent, commitment, power and speed. You can vary the amounts of each, but an attack that lacks these traits would not solicit a response from a competent martial artist. If your attack does not solicit a response then it is not a provocation.

4. I am not sure I know what this means. There is a level of complexity that may confuse observers, much like a magic trick to the unlearned magician. However, to a competent martial artist there should be some expectation for that observer to reverse-engineer the demonstration to ascertain what is going on. I am not sure claiming that if you witness a feat that does not appear to be sound martial technique, then you just don't know what is going on.

Aikido is a specialization art, not doubt about it. I think for hobbyists and passionate enthusiasts you can get through without a martial education and exposure to sister arts (and there educational experiences). However, how could more education be harmful? If you can perform aikido on an incompetent uke, why would you not try to perform aikido on a competent one?

This is not budo as I understand it, and it certainly limits the type of training you can enjoy. This posts almost reads like it is excusing poor uke waza and justifying why nage should feel they are receiving a complete training experience. What training is there in throwing someone who is incapable of stopping me?

The observation I make for "poor attacks" in aikido is that they are indicative of a disjointed, unbalanced movement incapable of soliciting a response from the intended target. "Limp arm" is a symptom of a poor attack.

The problem aikido faces with sister arts is that the distance and timing are different. The ability to respond to attacks from other arts is linked to the ability to adjust our distance and timing. Weapons work is one of the methods aikido people use to understand the necessity to alter our timing and distance for different interactions.

I think the subsequent follow-up post to the initial post uses "bobbing and weaving". A boxer bobs and weaves to create an opening to strike or defend (or perhaps a jab). The inability to accelerate our timing to the speed of a boxer is a reflection on our ability, not a denigration of the boxer's stylized attack.

Another example used in the follow-up post is that of a swordsmen's cut. The inability for aikiken to accelerate our timing to defend against an initial cut and then the second cut is a reflection of our sword skills, not our partner's ability to quickly perform multiple cuts.

If you want to advocate that aikido starts with the basics of dealing with stylized [aikido] attacks, fine. But I think we need to be careful about stating that all you need to deal with in aikido are stylized [aikido] attacks. I use my aikido far more dealing with verbal attacks than I do physical ones. Unless your dojo practice shouting at each other about money, or apologizing to your spouse, or confronting your boss, then I think we need to be saying "aikido is about dealing with any attack." This is budo as I understand it.

http://youtu.be/3CGMWlXosp4
This reminded me so much of this thread...OMG
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 11:54 AM   #22
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,113
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
Perhaps these "hanging the arm out there' "attacks" are misunderstood / degenerate form of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPhG6XA2fL8&t=3m20s ?
You beat me to it.

Quote:
Graham wrote:
4) When it therefore looks 'unmartial' or indeed unreal then the majority of times that is due to not knowing or recognising this reason by the onlooker.
And often by the practicioner as well, of course...I can't speak to the majorty of times, though as I have not had exposure to the majority of times people do this.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:34 PM   #23
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 994
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
1) Those attacks generally called hanging the arm out by the ill informed are correct as Aikido attacks.

2) The attacks in Aikido, namely the strikes, are done so for a reason and the way of striking in other arts is different for a reason.
Umm... The loudest criticism of such attacks that I have heard has come from aikido rokudans with experience in other arts. Are you saying those people are ill-informed?

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:44 PM   #24
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

I would agree with some of what Graham says, for a 5th kyu maybe 4th. Beyond that I'm not sure why anyone would still want an attack like that, much less deliver one in that manner. If I can simply move and you're going to run through to the wall or spin yourself to the ground, why would I need to do anything? I can just move, let you fall and feel good about myself that I made that happen? No thanks. I'm not interested in that and was never taught that. I'll have to let my instructor know that his years of training under Ueshiba and others has only led to heaps of misunderstanding.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:44 PM   #25
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 994
Offline
Re: Aikido attacks.

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
Aikido is a discipline and it is stated that there is no fighting in Aikido. Aikido has a little mentioned thing called ma ai. When faced by a person feigning to do this or that, boxing, kung fu, whatever, in other words when trying to be drawn into a fight the the discipline of Aikido says keep ma ai. Thus no fight.
Ma ai is by no means unique to aikido, or even to Japanese arts.

"Keeping ma ai" while waiting for an opening sounds like a good way to get yourself backed into an untenable situation, though.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Handmade Aikido Gifts - Handmade functional ceramic art with aikido themes



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 02-01-2014 12:35 AM
When is Aikido a Non-Aikido martial art? Allen Beebe General 51 11-13-2011 01:15 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 20 Peter Goldsbury Columns 22 10-20-2011 11:28 PM
How I Met Aikido rulemaker General 2 06-29-2010 11:02 PM
Steven Seagal Interview ad_adrian General 45 01-15-2010 04:34 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:34 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate