Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Non-Aikido Martial Traditions

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-23-2011, 07:10 PM   #281
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
ha ha ha love it!!!
Not far off the truth though.....
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 03:11 AM   #282
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, why call it something it's not--especially if they don't care much about the name? I can see calling it any kind of karate--because it has roots in karate. But why call it aiki-jutsu if it has no roots in Japanese aiki-jutsu? It doesn't add to the credibility and lends an air of fraudulence to the art. But also, to call a thing something that it's not...isn't that just basic dishonesty? And if that's true, what else is dishonest about it?

But, apparently, aiki-jutsu is not one of those arts. So why not call it some kind of karate? Just because aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, doesn't mean it's not the name of a specific real art. And it's highly misleading to call a karate art "aiki-jutsu".

Even by untrained people? Why show something that doesn't even work on a martially-untrained scientist of 125 pounds with his eyes closed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Sorry, but he should have stuck with the pressure points and kept calling it karate. It's misrepresntation to call it aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu.

Best to you.

David
Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata. What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.

It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.

The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.

I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 03:17 AM   #283
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

LOL.

I dont know why you guys deal with such people. He's pretty much on my ignore now.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 03:17 AM   #284
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Haha, I like that!
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:34 AM   #285
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata.
But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.
No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.
Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.
But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.
Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:06 AM   #286
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David
I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do? Now read this I found on wikipedia. It is excactly what we do:

"Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the application of internal strength or Ki energy to effect techniques. Blending with an attacker's movements allows the Aiki practitioner to control the actions of the attacker with minimal effort. One applies aiki by understanding the rhythm and intent of the attacker to find the optimal position and timing to apply a counter-technique."

Furthermore it says:

"It is found as a concept in arts as diverse as karate and judo. Aiki arts are generally classed as soft martial arts. The aiki arts place great emphasis on the use of qi energy. Techniques accomplished with aiki are subtle and require little mechanical force."

Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage? No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.

I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal. These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.

Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.

But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:58 AM   #287
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do?
What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage?
Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.
Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal.
But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.
Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.
As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo.
I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 10:38 AM   #288
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David
What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.

If you care a lot about the name "Aiki", and that it must have a certain linage, so be it. I don't, I care about what the art is all about and I found that this art is indeed powerful and useful. It is indeed very effecient, believe me. The scrolls don't have Aiki, people have aiki.

I've seen plenty of Daito Ryu videos with masters doing no touch throws. Does this mean that the linage of Daito Ryu is now dubious or fake?

Also this won't make anyone in KAJ rich like you might be implying, as memberships costs merely 100 kroner/18 dollar a month.

And my value and charachter are allright as they are.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-24-2011 at 10:42 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:22 AM   #289
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.
Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 11:58 AM   #290
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 311
Japan
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 12:36 PM   #291
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.
I don't think that's a true statement. Politics, poker, fishing, cooking, to name a very few more categories with fanatical support.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 01:14 PM   #292
Howard Popkin
Dojo: www.pbjjc.com
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 699
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 01:25 PM   #293
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
howie, you know that the only good kind of fish are the fish sticks in the frozen food section, right? heh heh heh
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 01:28 PM   #294
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 177
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
I actually had you in mind when I wrote that.

Mark
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 02:05 PM   #295
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David
I just ereased a long ramble. We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.

David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 02:13 PM   #296
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,511
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
...We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.
No, you've answered everything quite well enough. If you don't have respect for other people's heritage and reputations, nothing I say will change that. Your group and those you associate with have proven again the old adage that "You can't shame the shameless."

By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
...David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline.
No, thanks. I don't have to go far to find fraudulent aiki-jujutsu and I don't bother to visit them, so I see no need to travel to Denmark to do the same thing.

And far more importantly, I have too many legitimate teachers to visit to spend any time traveling to see those who misrepresent themselves and such ancient arts as aiki-jujutsu.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-24-2011 at 02:21 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #297
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
Yeah, speaking of, when are we going fishing next, Howard?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 02:42 PM   #298
Howard Popkin
Dojo: www.pbjjc.com
Location: Long Island, NY
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 699
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Right now, its all cod, but a little too cold.

I don't go under 40 ish degrees, because I'm to old to be a the rail all day and freeze.

I prefer summer tuna fishing

Who is in ?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 02:44 PM   #299
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 83
Denmark
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post

By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

David
You tie too much importance on the name. People will quickly realize that this is not Aikijujutsu. Partly because of our black dogi and lack of hakama, and partly because we tell them. And it's called "Kyusho Aiki Jutsu" and not "Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu" or anything else. I think people are smart enough to see the difference here. Your argument is equvalent to Facebook claiming copyright on everything spelled with "face" in it.

If we tried to associate ourselves with japanese Aikijujutsu, would our master write about it on the official website?

www.kyushoaikijutsu.com (You can make Google Chrome translate it, and then you can look around. We claim no heritage to Aikijujutsu or other traditional Aiki Jutsu schools. Only that we use Aiki principles.)

I'm sorry I could not let this matter go, when you so severely attack us only based on our name. We claim only linage Systema, HKI and Kyusho Jitsu, and we would have it no other way.

I do respect heritage, but you when judge us on only this I don't get it.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-24-2011 at 02:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 06:08 PM   #300
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training.
George, I studied Okinawan karate (Uechi Ryu) on Okinawa (under Seiyu Shinjo) and, like in a few other Okinawan karate arts (including ones that later made it to Japan), Sanchin is the staple "first kata". "Sanchin" kata comes from the San Zhan kata of Fujien White Crane. The kata is essentially a conditioning kata and while it should be done with kokyu/jin and breathwork, most beginners never have a clue about those parts because they're not overtly taught as part of the kata. For all practical purposes, you could think of a Morihiro Saito with some kokyu skills teaching the jo kata as a kokyu device. It only teaches kokyu within it if the kokyu is explicitly shown. This is true of Sanchin kata. Unless you can name some student of Ushiro that has learned kokyu by just learning the choreography of that kata, I think it's pretty improbable that someone is going to learn "straight internal power" via that kata. And trust me, I know tons of people who do Sanchin kata, so I know a fair amount about this. BTW, I hope the fact that this form of 'kokyu' coming via a Chinese martial art doesn't confuse people who are only used to Japanese kokyu.

I think I'd make the overall point that words like "energetics" etc., are interesting and I'd like to hear some specifics, but it's difficult for me to grasp vague terms within otherwise clear debate.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 06:16 PM   #301
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Unless you can name some student of Ushiro that has learned kokyu by just learning the choreography of that kata, I think it's pretty improbable that someone is going to learn "straight internal power" via that kata.
When I saw Ushiro Sensei teach the Sanchin kata, there was a great deal more to it than "choreography." Have you attended any of his seminars? Crossed hands with him?

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 06:32 PM   #302
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
When I saw Ushiro Sensei teach the Sanchin kata, there was a great deal more to it than "choreography." Have you attended any of his seminars? Crossed hands with him?
I watched Ushiro teaching people a fairly choreographic kata. BTW... if it's possible, could you and others debate an issue without bringing the other person into things personally? Sure, it helps to know if I've seen him teach the kata and if I've "crossed hands" with him, just as it might be interesting for me to know if you know anything at all about internal strength, what your background is in it, if you've 'crossed hands' with people like Chen Xiaowang as I have, if you've got about 50 years of martial-arts experience with the implication that someone with less than that doesn't understand martial-arts, and so on, but let me tell you a better way to do it on the internet......

I established that I have experience with Sanchin kata. I didn't say anything like "Ushiro sux", I said that Sanchin kata isn't going to particularly teach anyone internal strength (but if I'm wrong, show me). The correct debating point is "Oh, Sanchin kata will teach you internal strength and here is how it does that .....". We may disagree, but the point is that if Sanchin kata teaches something which is in itself physically demonstrable, then the method by which Sanchin kata does that training is physically discussable. Right?

So without you and I getting into a discussion of where the other person has some glaring personal faults, let's see if "how Sanchin kata shows or imbues or teaches, etc., internal strength" can be explored.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 06:42 PM   #303
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 06:48 PM   #304
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

Katherine
Thanks for your insightful observations and contributions to the topic!

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:10 PM   #305
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
I don't have enough experience with Ushiro Sensei to say what he can or cannot do or teach, except to observe, as I said, that he discussed quite a bit more than choreography in the presentation of Sanchin kata that I saw.

Since you have, as you say, personally seen him, I'll leave it to your vast knowledge of internal arts to draw whatever conclusions you like.

Katherine
Katherine:

Ushiro Sensei emphasizes that Sanchin Kata focuses on two major areas. 1) Kokyu- Breathing. Breathing is unified with movement. As one gets better in this area, the breathing becomes an integral part of the explosive power with the punch. 2) Shime- Tightening. The emphasis is on relaxing the joints so that a unified tightening is created in the body. This is critical in developing explosive power. It is spoken as developing "Bu" through "Ju" (hard through soft). It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:44 PM   #306
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Ushiro Sensei emphasizes that Sanchin Kata focuses on two major areas. 1) Kokyu- Breathing. Breathing is unified with movement. As one gets better in this area, the breathing becomes an integral part of the explosive power with the punch. 2) Shime- Tightening. The emphasis is on relaxing the joints so that a unified tightening is created in the body. This is critical in developing explosive power. It is spoken as developing "Bu" through "Ju" (hard through soft). It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.
I suppose I'm the "certain people" so rudely referred to, but *leaving me out of the actual topic*, how about explaining how and when it's supposed to work... the Sanchin and internal strength? Seeing something and believing firmly that it will develop power is something one of the characters in the Wizard of Oz might believe in fervently, but in the real world, how would Sanchin develop internal power. And yes, I happen to know the answer, but my central point had to do with the fact that people following the latest trend on AikiWeb aren't ending up often enough with internal strength for all the fuss. In other words, if a beginner (which I was, at one time, and I darned well remember it) comes to me and says, "I want to learn internal strength", I wouldn't say "Go to Joe Blow and let him teach you Sanchin.... it's just chock full of IP power". Is that really what we'd do to newbies because it sounds cool and it doesn't rock the boat? Noobs don't need to be used as cannon fodder for workshops, IMO.

Show me a few gaijin people that have studied Sanchin with Ushiro who have developed internal strength. I haven't met any and I'm certainly willing to be pleased and open if I do meet someone like that. If it's even marginally good I'd say "Awesome". If there's no results from a certain type of training I think it would take the lowest type of person to continue sending newbies off to pay the seminar bills. Hence my question to Ledyard Sensei about Sanchin's internal power. Let's think of the Noobs as human beings rather than as pigskin wallets.

FWIW

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 01-24-2011 at 08:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 08:53 PM   #307
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,568
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
... the point is that if Sanchin kata teaches something which is in itself physically demonstrable, then the method by which Sanchin kata does that training is physically discussable. Right?

So ... let's see if "how Sanchin kata shows or imbues or teaches, etc., internal strength" can be explored.
FWIW -- I see in Sanchin, in a different way, what I see also in the kokyu undo in Aikido. Both code the results of a manner of movement/force concentration/dissipation -- I think that just "doing sanchin" will not teach one much -- if "doing" sanchin is what one is trying to learn. It does not teach -- it codes an outcome... it shows a certain set of shapes of movement/stress, such that when one grasps it results in something very like sanchin occurring when you act in that way.

Sanchin is the rough measure of the shape of the resultant -- and what one strives for is the manner of bodywork that just ends up that way without conscious intervention greater than for walking. Same for the kokyu undo. Like having the multiple choice test answers -- but you have to read the text book to find the questions they respond to. Sanchin, like kokyu undo, is to give you defined areas to focus on in a poorly defined text -- and to help check your work -- it is not a substitute for reading the book.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2011, 09:08 PM   #308
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Erick Mead wrote: View Post
FWIW -- I see in Sanchin, in a different way, what I see also in the kokyu undo in Aikido. Both code the results of a manner of movement/force concentration/dissipation -- I think that just "doing sanchin" will not teach one much -- if "doing" sanchin is what one is trying to learn. It does not teach -- it codes an outcome... it shows a certain set of shapes of movement/stress, such that when one grasps it results in something very like sanchin occurring when you act in that way.

Sanchin is the rough measure of the shape of the resultant -- and what one strives for is the manner of bodywork that just ends up that way without conscious intervention greater than for walking. Same for the kokyu undo. Like having the multiple choice test answers -- but you have to read the text book to find the questions they respond to. Sanchin, like kokyu undo, is to give you defined areas to focus on in a poorly defined text -- and to help check your work -- it is not a substitute for reading the book.
I basically agree, Erick. So let's re-phrase it like this:

Doing Kokyu-ho undo won't give you internal strength unless you know how to do it as coded for internal strength. IF a person has been doing Kokyu-ho undo correctly for umpteen years they don't need to learn Sanchin because they would already have internal strength. I basically made that same argument on this forum about 5-6 years ago.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:10 AM   #309
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
It is simply not worth getting in a debate with certain people as to whether or not something teaches you and/or constitute "internal power." You saw something that indicated a depth of material. Hopefully, it was to your benefit in your own training.
Yes, I've concluded that. And yes, I found Ushiro Sensei's presentation helpful.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 09:36 AM   #310
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained? What I see happening is that people say (paraphrasing), "This is cool! I like it, it must be internal!!"

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body - actually, what I wrote is misleading - they are *key* components that you will keep building on as long as you are training. And what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching (CAVEAT & NOTE: I've not seen Ushiro or any of his peeps practice this kata), but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways. Just like funakogi-undo (rowing) in aikido. Find the clip where Ueshiba is doing it with Terry Dobson and you can see very different "types" of movement exhibited by the two (and before anyone gets their thong bunched together - I'm not saying that Terry sucked or didn't know anything, okay?).

So in addition to using Sanchin to train breath, pressure, stretching and relaxation - there's a fundamental (almost said "weight management" ha!) connection (almost said "middle managment" ha!) componet that involves how you bring your "intent" and "strength" (using that loaded term - even though it encapsulates heaven/earth, ground/gravity, etc. all that) to a single point to an overall covering throughout the body and back to a single point and . .so on and so on.

For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit. How you manage the ground pushing you up and gravity pulling you down to manipulate the stretch - will result in how powerful your release ends up being. How well conditioned your body is (relaxed, connected etc.) will result in how much power you can load into the stretch. The use of local muscle will inhibit these things.

The are the nuts and bolts in how I define internal strength. This other talk of energetics, etc. I'm curious about - but less from the perspective of "Oh my sensei does cool shiznit with energy" and more along he lines of how it works - what and how are you training yourself to do?

If people can refrain from having to discuss personalities - I think it will be more productive for everyone. I keep seeing the phrase - "Budo is all about the relationships" (again paraphrasing). Fine, depending on your definition of Budo (e.g. something you belong to versus something you DO and ARE), I can buy into that. But in terms of these "how to" discussions - I care a lot less about how much fun you had attending someone's class or how affirmed you feel as a person. Obviously it should be a relatively "safe" environment . . but can you see how that's a separate discussion?
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 11:05 AM   #311
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained? What I see happening is that people say (paraphrasing), "This is cool! I like it, it must be internal!!"

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body - actually, what I wrote is misleading - they are *key* components that you will keep building on as long as you are training. And what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching (CAVEAT & NOTE: I've not seen Ushiro or any of his peeps practice this kata), but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways. Just like funakogi-undo (rowing) in aikido. Find the clip where Ueshiba is doing it with Terry Dobson and you can see very different "types" of movement exhibited by the two (and before anyone gets their thong bunched together - I'm not saying that Terry sucked or didn't know anything, okay?).

So in addition to using Sanchin to train breath, pressure, stretching and relaxation - there's a fundamental (almost said "weight management" ha!) connection (almost said "middle managment" ha!) componet that involves how you bring your "intent" and "strength" (using that loaded term - even though it encapsulates heaven/earth, ground/gravity, etc. all that) to a single point to an overall covering throughout the body and back to a single point and . .so on and so on.

For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit. How you manage the ground pushing you up and gravity pulling you down to manipulate the stretch - will result in how powerful your release ends up being. How well conditioned your body is (relaxed, connected etc.) will result in how much power you can load into the stretch. The use of local muscle will inhibit these things.

The are the nuts and bolts in how I define internal strength. This other talk of energetics, etc. I'm curious about - but less from the perspective of "Oh my sensei does cool shiznit with energy" and more along he lines of how it works - what and how are you training yourself to do?

If people can refrain from having to discuss personalities - I think it will be more productive for everyone. I keep seeing the phrase - "Budo is all about the relationships" (again paraphrasing). Fine, depending on your definition of Budo (e.g. something you belong to versus something you DO and ARE), I can buy into that. But in terms of these "how to" discussions - I care a lot less about how much fun you had attending someone's class or how affirmed you feel as a person. Obviously it should be a relatively "safe" environment . . but can you see how that's a separate discussion?
Budd:

Very good points. His breathing method is different than the one taught by Ki Society. The breath in is allowed to occur naturally (not like to controlled breathing in as done in Ki Breathing). He emphasizes keeping around 20% of the breath in your lungs when you finish with the exhaling through your mouth. He finishes with a short, compressed burst outwards, that is linked to the explosive power. This body movement emphasizes the lack of muscle contraction that you talk about. The tightness would best be described as the torsion of the body trains so that the frame is bearing a unified degree of tension that can be easily be released in any direction. Another sign that you are doing it right is that incoming force can pass through you.

He has a variety of tests and bunkai kumite to verify the correctness of one's movements. The learning process is definitely one of trying to develop better patterned movements.

I frankly am staying away from the "internal debate." One person's view of internal is another person's view of external, is another person's view of ....... In the end, we should all be trying to become better martial artists. Thank you for your efforts toward keeping the discussion on topic.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 12:45 PM   #312
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Hi Marc,

So if we're crosswalking these things to what I described, perhaps a deeper look would be that the breathwork is intended to make you start to feel how the insides connect within the movement. The compressed burst linked to explosive power could potentially be a means to focus that connected body along to a single point while also managing the micro-muscles that convey your intent (the mental direction of the ground/gravity acting through you as it results in a physical change).

Based on the tests you describe, I see where it can be checking frame and connection - are there explicit drills beyond passing an incoming force towards manipulating their directionality?

Again, just guessing based on what I work on - but does that make sense as the kind of deeper dive that's useful to look at these things - especially "simple" forms, like Sanchin - should be a container to work on all the mental/physical IS conditioning aspects through one drill, I'd wager. So, the better our understanding of the component parts, the better we can see how they fit within the overall landscape of shape.

Thanks for the info,

Best/Budd

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Budd:

Very good points. His breathing method is different than the one taught by Ki Society. The breath in is allowed to occur naturally (not like to controlled breathing in as done in Ki Breathing). He emphasizes keeping around 20% of the breath in your lungs when you finish with the exhaling through your mouth. He finishes with a short, compressed burst outwards, that is linked to the explosive power. This body movement emphasizes the lack of muscle contraction that you talk about. The tightness would best be described as the torsion of the body trains so that the frame is bearing a unified degree of tension that can be easily be released in any direction. Another sign that you are doing it right is that incoming force can pass through you.

He has a variety of tests and bunkai kumite to verify the correctness of one's movements. The learning process is definitely one of trying to develop better patterned movements.

I frankly am staying away from the "internal debate." One person's view of internal is another person's view of external, is another person's view of ....... In the end, we should all be trying to become better martial artists. Thank you for your efforts toward keeping the discussion on topic.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 01:01 PM   #313
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Hi Marc,

So if we're crosswalking these things to what I described, perhaps a deeper look would be that the breathwork is intended to make you start to feel how the insides connect within the movement. The compressed burst linked to explosive power could potentially be a means to focus that connected body along to a single point while also managing the micro-muscles that convey your intent (the mental direction of the ground/gravity acting through you as it results in a physical change).

Based on the tests you describe, I see where it can be checking frame and connection - are there explicit drills beyond passing an incoming force towards manipulating their directionality?

Again, just guessing based on what I work on - but does that make sense as the kind of deeper dive that's useful to look at these things - especially "simple" forms, like Sanchin - should be a container to work on all the mental/physical IS conditioning aspects through one drill, I'd wager. So, the better our understanding of the component parts, the better we can see how they fit within the overall landscape of shape.

Thanks for the info,

Best/Budd
Budd:

Remember that I am learning from Ushiro Sensei and can only share from the limited experience that I have. The breathing in Sanchin is very much about connecting breathing and body together. The interesting thing about Ushiro Sensei's burst is that the emanation of energy is 360 degrees. I can only wish to be able to do that one.

There are many tests and many different levels of tests, depending upon your level of development. The interesting stuff is the stuff around neutralizing the force of the other person without changing the directionality of their incoming force.

Ushiro Sensei starts his day by doing Sanchin kata. He talked about always learning new things from all of the kata. I just finished rehab. on my shoulder and have begun my daily kata practice again. I feel as though I have slid backwards in some areas. Interestingly enough, the time I spend on watching video and thinking deeply about certain movements in other kata have helped me clean up my execution in those areas. Thank you for the clarity of your writing. I find it helpful.

Regards,

marc abrams
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 01:52 PM   #314
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Thanks, Marc. I'll be really interested over time to see how you work on connecting the dots between what you're doing now and the burst that Ushiro does. I have an idea in theory how it works, but don't want to comment any further without hands on. I expect a lot of it is the right conditioning combined with the right balance of stretch and release.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:01 PM   #315
Thomas Campbell
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 407
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

And that's the way it should be done.

Thanks, Marc and Budd.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:02 PM   #316
Marc Abrams
Dojo: Aikido Arts of Shin Budo Kai/ Bedford Hills, New York
Location: New York
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,302
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Thanks, Marc. I'll be really interested over time to see how you work on connecting the dots between what you're doing now and the burst that Ushiro does. I have an idea in theory how it works, but don't want to comment any further without hands on. I expect a lot of it is the right conditioning combined with the right balance of stretch and release.
Budd:

I'm interested as well!!! This work for me is mentally taxing. I hope that one day, the mental intend can drive easier that it currently is. Luckily, I have some great colleagues and teachers to help me move forward. The nice thing about where I am in my life, is that I feel no sense of urgency or rush, just a dedication to apply myself harder as a student to learning something new every day. I genuinely look forward to meeting you.

Regards,

marc
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 02:04 PM   #317
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,075
Spain
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Thomas Campbell wrote: View Post
And that's the way it should be done.

Thanks, Marc and Budd.
Seconded.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:21 PM   #318
thisisnotreal
 
thisisnotreal's Avatar
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 694
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Seconded.
Yes. Thank you.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:23 PM   #319
Erick Mead
 
Erick Mead's Avatar
Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,568
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
I feel like we're circling around the meat of the actual discusion, which to me is - what discrete elements around internal strength can we identify and how are they trained?

So using Sanchin as an example - the two areas that Marc speaks to (breath integrated movement and loosening the joints) are certainly basic pieces of the kinds of conditioning you need to do in order to rewire your body ... what I've seen by a lot of people doing Sanchin kata is certainly emphasizing breath and stretching ... but also with "locked" poses and external/localized tension in arms, shoulders, letgs, etc.

The clips I've seen where Ushiro s moving, he's not showing the localized tension - but the point I'm making around Sanchin is that there's most likely a "right" way to do it and a "progressvely less correct" ways.
I would say that the purpose of Sanchin is to emphasize correct connected movement that is also a management of applied stress (which is why the form is often tested by beating on the demonstrator in various ways). The lesson is not localized tension, but whole-body connection in an explicitly FLOWING manner.

The stiffness seen in proper sanchin is not the stiffness of locked-up joints, (or your properly noted criticism of "localized tension"). It is simply very SLOOOW flow. The stiffness is throughout the body without exception. It is the stiffness of using "softened" joints in very "viscous" manner but flowing, like the flow of taffy or cold molasses.

The principle being, if you allow the muscles which want to actuate to just actuate all over, and altogether, then they learn a way of flowing while actuating in a way different from ordinary "push-pull" reciprocating limb movements that is the default most people's bodies have to unlearn. Eventually, the stiffness can soften more and more and the local muscle actuation diminishes progressively and stops inhibiting the flow within the body .
Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
For instance, in funakogi - there's an accompanying stretch and release on he inside before the arms come forward and back. How that stretch is managed and released gets increasingly more complex based on how the body is conditioned over time because more of you will be coordinated together to act as a single connected unit.
Funakogi undo (and udefuri, zengo undo, furitama, and most all fo the kokyu ho undo, etc. ) takes the completely opposite tack compared with sanchin. No limb muscle actuation of any kind should be used and the core is properly used to drive the loose, slinging, shuddering flow throughout the body, out the limbs and back again, in coordination with the breath. Eventually the muscles in the limbs learn the pattern of this action and can assist in guiding it in ways that do not diminish it.

Done properly it has two basic modes: one is the kind of flowy continuous reversal of motions that never stops, i.e. -- the sign changes but the magnitude of the momentum never even goes toward zero - -a la funa kogi done in the slow furling/unfurling motion (i.e. -- "spirit of the Demon Snake" in the Doka).

Breath figures in because the cycle of breath furls and unfurls the torso in precisely the same manner.

The other mode prompts resonance or reverberation in the body seen in tekubi furi and furitama which should ideally bounce the heels spontaneously from its higher frequency oscillations, The Doka calls this the "spirit of bees."

Funa kogi can be done both ways, actually, one looking more like a flag waving in the bereze and the other more like an atemi with the "pop" and the resonance in the reverb of the body in extension drives the retraction spontaneously. It is like a chain rebounding with that stretch you mention -- because it IS a chain rebounding -- a chain of bones.

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
The use of local muscle will inhibit these things.
Localized actuation causes discontinuities or reversals that eat up the flow. Some people call these discontinuities "creases in the suit." Sanchin totalizes actuation throughout the body removing the local discontinuities. Kokyu ho undo removes all actuation except from the core, and thus also eliminates the local discontinuities.

Sanchin has the inexorable flow of a landslide. Kokyu ho undo has the twin aspects of flow in the breaking wave.

Last edited by Erick Mead : 01-25-2011 at 03:30 PM.

Cordially,

Erick Mead
一隻狗可久里馬房但他也不是馬的.
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2011, 03:35 PM   #320
Budd
 
Budd's Avatar
Dojo: Taikyoku Budo - NY, MD
Location: Williamsville, NY
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 932
United_States
Offline
Re: Training Internal Strength

Erick, without getting into a scientific debate regarding your understanding of how internal strength works - I'd say that how the physical forms of both sets of movements is powered (conditioned pressures managing the movement of limbs directed by opposing forces inside you) is the same . . think a bit more about "what" causes the limbs to move. I'm not accepting "shear" as the answer, either
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 3 Peter Goldsbury Columns 16 05-28-2007 07:24 AM
Why are you here on this forum? Dennis Hooker Announcements & Feedback 129 03-15-2007 02:07 PM
aiki ethics and internal training jeff. General 19 12-14-2006 08:12 AM
Practical internal training ? Mark Gibbons Training 113 12-13-2006 03:54 PM
Shu Ha Ri akiy General 21 07-12-2004 03:32 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:13 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate