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Old 01-19-2011, 03:54 PM   #126
Mark Gibbons
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Just to resolve something that bugged me on these types of threads, Ark is Minoru Akuzawa Sensei. Also see Aunkai.

Mark
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:02 PM   #127
phitruong
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
. But we all suggest that you meet up with Mike, Dan, Ark or others known to have the goods. In one way, it saves you a lot of work to do this stuff.
David
nah! shouldn't meet those guys. what do they know? tony, sounded like you got a handle on things. just live it alone.

david, we are going to get together to compare notes one of these days. those guys in atlanta just don't know how to party.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:05 PM   #128
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Just to resolve something that bugged me on these types of threads, Ark is Minoru Akuzawa Sensei. Also see Aunkai.

Mark
Thank you for clearing that up. I had been wondering who Ark was, but in the mean time I figured out that Ark had to be him.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:16 PM   #129
phitruong
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mark Gibbons wrote: View Post
Just to resolve something that bugged me on these types of threads, Ark is Minoru Akuzawa Sensei. Also see Aunkai.

Mark
what bugged me is that he didn't have some simple name that easy to remember, like joe-bob or billy-bob or just bob. what was he thinking? it's hard enough to learn his stuffs. we have to remember his name as well?
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:55 PM   #130
aikilouis
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Re: Training Internal Strength

What I'm interested in is Henry Ellis's opinion, if he reads this thread.

IS is apparently something that has not been transmitted systematically enough in aikido over the years, and since he is probably the most experienced of all of us in this forum, and that he was an important actor of the beginnings of aikido in his country, I am wondering if the stuff that is being brought up here is making him connect some dots between things that he experienced or witnessed in the hands of the earlier pioneers like Abe sensei.

On a personal note, the necessity of internal strength as the motor of aikido technique was quite clear to me from the moment I started training and watched O Sensei's films (especially the very oldest one). I obviously couldn't articulate it at the time, but if you take out the internal element, aikido technique is very counterintuitive compared to arts that define themselves by a strong emphasis on percussion or grappling.

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Old 01-19-2011, 05:03 PM   #131
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Phi Truong wrote: View Post
david, we are going to get together to compare notes one of these days. those guys in atlanta just don't know how to party.
Can you show me where to get the zebra-skin Speedos?


David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

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Old 01-19-2011, 07:27 PM   #132
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Sure. I just don't recall anyone's mentioning "ki balls" on this thread. And I just did a whole thread on ki, but no one mentioned "ki balls" there, either.

As far as defining it, I'll put a summary out for comment.

Internal Strength training involves balancing and using six elements for martial effectiveness:

bones
muscles
fascia
breath
ki
mind (intent)

Four of these elements are strictly physical, while ki is sort of mental/physical and "mind" is strictly mental.

Using the bones to carry force or bear weight instead of the muscles is one kind of internal strength. Likewise, using fascia instead of muscles is another.

But using bones, muscles, fascia and breath together (instead of mainly muscle) is a big beginning to IS.

However, I think it's the use of mind (intent) and ki that really make the difference in IS and "external" martial arts.

Notice that all these things have multiple functions and create multiple effects on the other elements: muscles can pull the bones out of alignment and "crimp" the fascia, making the breath shallow. Slack muscles can fail to transmit power through the system. Tight or slack fascia can do much the same. Plus, ki moves through the fascia, so any problem with the fascia will disrupt the actions of the ki. If the mind is too agitated, the ki will be agitated and the body will likely be tense and the breath fast and shallow. Unsettled ki will, in turn, unsettle the mind, which will weaken the body and any interactions with others.

So internal power involves conditioning each of the elements according to their nature and using the elements together with all the other elements.

The best way to do all this is to put the ki in the center of the body by directing it there with the mind, and to coordinate all efforts and movements through the center--which means actually developing the connections between the hands and the center and the feet and the center and the head and the center. And that means training specifically to drive body movement through movement of the center. It also means using the mind to direct the ki into the intended movement and using that ki movement to move the center and thus the body.

A lot of this comes naturally through regular budo training. But that can be (and usually is) haphazard, leaving the practitioner wondering, sometimes, how he achieved some spectacular result because he unknowingly did the right things together and later can't replicate the feat. It is only by consciously recognizing and conditioning each of the elements according to its nature, and coordinating their use together consciously that we can start to develop "internal" methods and do things by intent rather than happenstance.

So that's my general description of internal methods, which, I think, will hold true for any internal art. Anyone who knows better, please correct me.

The best way to gauge these things is to put hands on people whom others recognize as skilled in these matters and judge for yourself if your approach comes up to the level of theirs. And then listen to what they tell you.

People say "it has to be felt," but I got a lot of feeling out of reading people's posts and hearing other people's descriptions of meeting powerful people. Those were the experiences that led me to go out and meet Ark and Dan and to keep trying to meet up with Mike.

Yeah. We're all agreed on that. No one here has suggested any of those things. But we all suggest that you meet up with Mike, Dan, Ark or others known to have the goods. In one way, it saves you a lot of work to do this stuff. But that's only by doing a LOT of work to get there. It's both easier and harder than ordinary aikido and as they say, it's tougher for the mind than for the body. But it's exhilarating. Worth every minute.

Best to you.

David
It's funny you know, but having read everything here and pondering it I would say, that I'm pretty close to what you have all said here, (with thanks) so maybe I have found it but have not come to a complete conclusion as yet. Is that possible?
I have felt true power in the way you all describe and it is laughable, but at the same time tangible, strangely enough it was more from judo than aikido as I suspect there are very few in aikido that actually have the goods, which I might add I have felt to, from those instructors, in the past who I have had the pleasure and luck to encounter....
They have passed it onto me without realising they had it to, (or did they?) as hardly any of them rarely mentioned "ki" or internal power, just posture and making use of that posture from the centre....
What I "feel" does seem to emanate from my "core" or should I say stomach area and it has a "feeling" of coming from the core out to the extremities, that is my hips, legs, chest, arms, and seems to "explode" (kind of) through the wrists right through to my fingertips.... it's kind of exhilarating..... maybe I have it, maybe I don't.... it is hard to describe, but I wouldn't call it "mystical"....... more of a feeling of coming together at the right moment........ Hope that doesn't sound weird, but it's the only way I can put it into words.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-19-2011 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:11 PM   #133
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What I "feel" does seem to emanate from my "core" or should I say stomach area and it has a "feeling" of coming from the core out to the extremities, that is my hips, legs, chest, arms, and seems to "explode" (kind of) through the wrists right through to my fingertips.... it's kind of exhilarating..... maybe I have it, maybe I don't.... it is hard to describe, but I wouldn't call it "mystical"....... more of a feeling of coming together at the right moment........ Hope that doesn't sound weird, but it's the only way I can put it into words.....
'You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother.' Albert Einstein

The first thing I'd point out is that the ki things are a lot more complicated than a few jin/kokyu tricks, but most people trying to cobble together an 'understanding' of ki/kokyu/qi/jin skills haven't gotten far enough to grasp that fact yet. So the entire spectrum of knowledge is a lot more than most people are thinking in these early stages.

The kokyu/jin things are fairly simple to lead someone into and to describe. It doesn't take a lot of convoluted rigmarole to explain kokyu, even though it looks mysterious to someone who hasn't seen it. I've watched various people who had unclear understandings of kokyu/jin try complex and vague descriptions, and I've really tried to consider the idea that they learned by feel and never fully analysed the skill. Maybe. More likely their understanding is just incomplete. Watch Ikeda Sensei's attempts to describe (he has some videos out) sometime. It's interesting.

In terms of the Whole Banana (tm) of ki/kokyu/hara/misogi skills, most of what people are talking about now is not quite half. So if someone really had a broad view of the topic, describing the ki stuff that is being talked about on this thread isn't that much. If you understood the whole, I'm sure a man of your prestige and ability could easily find the words.

Because a lot of these physical but not intuitive skills have been lost in the past, there is a strong indicator that there's more to these things than a lot of the superficial approaches would now suggest. The main thing I'm worriedly watching is how many "experts" (often the same 'experts' who swore there was no such thing in very recent years) will step up and start teaching 'students' that which they themselves don't fully know/understand. I think it may well turn into a case of the schlemiel spills his soup on the schlimazel.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:47 PM   #134
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It's funny you know, but having read everything here and pondering it I would say, that I'm pretty close to what you have all said here, (with thanks) so maybe I have found it but have not come to a complete conclusion as yet. Is that possible?
I will always believe that traditional aikido and judo training will give you a tremendous amount of the conditioning that makes IP possible, but unless you learn specifically what it is and exactly how you make it happen, you can't really control it. It will show up strangely from time to time but you won't be able to do it at will. And Ueshiba and Mifune could seriously do it at will. As could Shioda, apparently. But Mochizuki, who was uchi deshi to both Ueshiba and Mifune, pretty well dismissed it--at least as far as talking about it. I think he had it and passed it to some people, but in general, he was teaching technique. So whatever I got from him remained in the subconscious and I didn't get intentional control over that aspect, though I did get pretty good in various techniques. So it's possible to get some IP without knowing it, but to have control, you have to understand it consciously.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I have felt true power in the way you all describe and it is laughable, but at the same time tangible, strangely enough it was more from judo than aikido as I suspect there are very few in aikido that actually have the goods...
I agree. I would say that most of it I've felt was in judo men or judo practice. Though I can think of a few moments among the shihan at the old yoseikan hombu when strange things happened, but no one commented on it.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
They have passed it onto me without realising they had it to, (or did they?) as hardly any of them rarely mentioned "ki" or internal power, just posture and making use of that posture from the centre....
Still, it is an art, and art is never accidental--unless the artist wants it to be...in which case it isn't....

But it has to be conscious and for reliability, it has to be understood.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What I "feel" does seem to emanate from my "core" or should I say stomach area and it has a "feeling" of coming from the core out to the extremities, that is my hips, legs, chest, arms, and seems to "explode" (kind of) through the wrists right through to my fingertips.... it's kind of exhilarating..... maybe I have it, maybe I don't.... it is hard to describe, but I wouldn't call it "mystical"....... more of a feeling of coming together at the right moment........ Hope that doesn't sound weird, but it's the only way I can put it into words.....
Sounds great. I think that's the essence. But to develop that you have to put technique aside for awhile and look at the essence in great detail. So at this time, I'm pretty much formless and I've only begun to understand some of these matters. Most of what I say is to get feedback from others who know more.

Hope you can meet up with some of these guys soon.

Best to you.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-19-2011 at 08:54 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:35 PM   #135
Upyu
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
?) as hardly any of them rarely mentioned "ki" or internal power, just posture and making use of that posture from the centre...
Tony, the truth is that even beginners can for the most part articulate whats happening on a physical level. And good posture has little to do with IS, evem though it can make it easier to develop and add to the overall power, its much easier to be led astray (thats speaking from personal experience as well) The fact that you made that statement gives away how much you know.
While I wouldn't say you're completely off base with your statements concerning the core, I've heard so many "oh we do that too" only to find it isn't the case.
I'd say that just because you can replicate any number of "aiki" demos, there are a number ways to execute them in varying arrays of "external" ways, all the way down to pure "internal", with various shades of gray in between. I'm guilty of this as well, which is why i never assume that I "get it."

Course, it's always helpful to have acess to a coach who can do these things, and cross check your insights. Self perception disorder is a huge buzz kill in these pursuits

*edit Mike beat me to it, thats what I get for posting something i wrote pre work out and throwing it up there without checkin the thread

Last edited by Upyu : 01-19-2011 at 09:40 PM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:34 AM   #136
Hellis
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Ludwig Neveu wrote: View Post
What I'm interested in is Henry Ellis's opinion, if he reads this thread.
I am not interested in debating in this fathomless subject. I will reply to Ludwig's request..Despite my opinions once being dismissed on this forum with " What does Henry Ellis know ? he is just a dinosaur of Aikido " ....I thought it was a rather nice comliment

I do agree with much of Tony's thinking on this subject. As I gather he is as dismayed as I am at much of what we see being offered in the name of Aikido...

I have never seen any of my early teachers do what I would call mystical techniques or its scientific term BS, Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - along with Tada - Tamura - Ichimura and my long study with Chiba Sensei........

.What I have seen in all of the above and K Abbe more than anyone else is amazingly powerful technique, not just the execution of the technique, but a power that if I was asked to describe it? I could only say it was a combination of a great technique with internal power or strength.....With Abbe Sensei, one always knew you were ````going ```` how you went was up to you, you would be thrown...... The great Judoka Kimura Sensei once described his only loss to K Abbe as " It was like fighting a shadow ".

At the Hut Dojo in the late 1950s early 60s, we had a young dan grade named Trevor Jones, he was one of the first of eight dan grades in the UK. All the other seven dan grades were a little older and harder . Derek Eastman and I still discuss the special power that young Trevor had, I have not seen that in any other person. Noro Sensei thought he was special and sent him to Japan ( that is another story )
There are many displays of amazing ``stuff `` in Aikido, much, or most can only be done with the teachers own students.
When someone has been in Aikido a long time as I have, it is painful to watch someone ( example ) doing Aikido with ribbons, claiming this to be good for movement, perhaps a laxative would offer better movement..........

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/

Last edited by akiy : 01-20-2011 at 09:55 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:14 AM   #137
Gorgeous George
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
perhaps a laxative would offer better movement...
A brilliant putdown.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:20 AM   #138
phitruong
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Can you show me where to get the zebra-skin Speedos?


David
i hate to inform you but you IP power just isn't strong enough to handle the zebra-skin speedos. it might crack your aiki and causes tightness in places that would interfere with your development.
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Old 01-20-2011, 06:51 AM   #139
phitruong
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
What I have seen in all of the above and K Abbe more than anyone else is amazingly powerful technique, not just the execution of the technique, but a power that if I was asked to describe it? I could only say it was a combination of a great technique with internal power or strength.....With Abbe Sensei, one always knew you were ````going ```` how you went was up to you, you would be thrown...... The great Judoka Kimura Sensei once described his only loss to K Abbe as " It was like fighting a shadow ".
the question would be, can it be taught systematically with achievable results that doesn't take 20 years to accomplish?

sure, you see and hear folks mentioned that they, either themselves or in someone else, have done those mysterious power and so on, but mostly accidental. the question is can it be trained and controlled at will, instead of accidental occurrences. i am pretty sure that sort of questions have been asked by the asian martial arts for millenniums. It's a teachable skill, not the snake oil stuffs. in so far that the chinese (possibly Indian too) developed the language to describe various components of such practices. i don't think the japanese was that advance, since they had not developed the language to even describe it.

the point is internal strength/IP/IT and aiki are systematically trainable skills. it's not the be-all of martial arts, but an important component of it, possible one of the foundational stones. my guess is that many arts have made this the secret ingredient of their secret sauce (wonder if more folks know about this stuffs, would it still be secret?). and yes, it might shorten the time for you be good at whatever martial arts that you are doing, but it doesn't mean it easy or require less training; in fact, it's the opposite. not many can or willing to travel this road; it's hopeless for the fast food generations.
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:32 AM   #140
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
...Despite my opinions once being dismissed on this forum with " What does Henry Ellis know ? he is just a dinosaur of Aikido " ....I thought it was a rather nice comliment
I'm honored just to be on the same thread with you, Sir T.Rex!

I hope you'll never stop posting.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I do agree with much of Tony's thinking on this subject. As I gather he is as dismayed as I am at much of what we see being offered in the name of Aikido...
Do you mean "woo-woo" or the internal power training?

I've been sick of the woo-woo for decades.

But the internal power is quite another subject.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I have never seen any of my early teachers do what I would call mystical techniques or its scientific term BS, Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - along with Tada - Tamura - Ichimura and my long study with Chiba Sensei........
I don't think anyone on this thread looks for anything "mystical" in training--just the essence of what real power means in Asian martial arts.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
What I have seen in all of the above and K Abbe more than anyone else is amazingly powerful technique, not just the execution of the technique, but a power that if I was asked to describe it? I could only say it was a combination of a great technique with internal power or strength.....
Did any of those guys ever demonstrate immovability in a natural stance against a push, or several people pushing?

I knew a fellow once in Alabama who was in his seventies (a long time ago) who started jujutsu in 1917. Looking back, when I tried to push him around in judo, it was like pushing on a makiwara post. He was much smaller than I, but I couldn't move him at all. He would flex a little, but I couldn't make him move his feet unless he wanted to, and then he would flex back into me and send me flying. He certainly never would have classed himself with K. Abbe or his peers, but he remains among the top five or six I've ever met.

Are you talking about that kind of power? Flexible, but so very hard.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
The great Judoka Kimura Sensei once described his only loss to K Abbe as " It was like fighting a shadow ".
And then untouchable as well as both immoveable and unstoppable. Really beautiful.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
At the Hut Dojo in the late 1950s early 60s, we had a young dan grade named Trevor Jones, he was one of the first of eight dan grades in the UK. All the other seven dan grades were a little older and harder . Derek Eastman and I still discuss the special power that young Trevor had, I have not seen that in any other person. Noro Sensei thought he was special and sent him to Japan ( that is another story )
I've seen your website. Have you considered writing a book? Maybe Stan Pranin would publish it. I'd buy it.

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
There are many displays of amazing ``stuff `` in Aikido, much, or most can only be done with the teachers own students.
But the people you mention could do amazing things with anyone, couldn't they? (and we're not interested in the goo-goo, woo-woo)

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
When someone has been in Aikido a long time as I have, it is painful to watch someone ( example ) doing Aikido with ribbons, claiming this to be good for movement, perhaps a laxative would offer better movement..........
I think watching that would have the same effect as a laxative!

But did your teachers really develop all that power simply through practice of the standard techniques? Just think of all those guys, as powerful as they were, being the students of Morihei Ueshiba. And as powerful as he was, being well below the level of Sokaku Takeda! I just can't see that calisthenics and regular aikido and judo technique would have created that kind of power in those men. And we all hope that you can shed some light on what they did below the surface.

Thank you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:29 AM   #141
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
nah! shouldn't meet those guys. what do they know? tony, sounded like you got a handle on things. just live it alone.

david, we are going to get together to compare notes one of these days. those guys in atlanta just don't know how to party.
Sssssh...
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:36 AM   #142
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I am not interested in debating in this fathomless subject. I will reply to Ludwig's request..Despite my opinions once being dismissed on this forum with " What does Henry Ellis know ? he is just a dinosaur of Aikido " ....I thought it was a rather nice comliment

I do agree with much of Tony's thinking on this subject. As I gather he is as dismayed as I am at much of what we see being offered in the name of Aikido...

I have never seen any of my early teachers do what I would call mystical techniques or its scientific term BS, Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - along with Tada - Tamura - Ichimura and my long study with Chiba Sensei........

.What I have seen in all of the above and K Abbe more than anyone else is amazingly powerful technique, not just the execution of the technique, but a power that if I was asked to describe it? I could only say it was a combination of a great technique with internal power or strength.....With Abbe Sensei, one always knew you were ````going ```` how you went was up to you, you would be thrown...... The great Judoka Kimura Sensei once described his only loss to K Abbe as " It was like fighting a shadow ".

At the Hut Dojo in the late 1950s early 60s, we had a young dan grade named Trevor Jones, he was one of the first of eight dan grades in the UK. All the other seven dan grades were a little older and harder . Derek Eastman and I still discuss the special power that young Trevor had, I have not seen that in any other person. Noro Sensei thought he was special and sent him to Japan ( that is another story )
There are many displays of amazing ``stuff `` in Aikido, much, or most can only be done with the teachers own students.
When someone has been in Aikido a long time as I have, it is painful to watch someone ( example ) doing Aikido with ribbons, claiming this to be good for movement, perhaps a laxative would offer better movement..........

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
I can't wait to get my my dinosaur certificate Henry!! I've put mine on the back of the toilet door 'cause I like to look at them while I'm "meditating"..... and regenerating my "ki"
But it would have to be a junior "dinosaur"......

Last edited by akiy : 01-20-2011 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:45 AM   #143
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Phi Truong wrote: View Post
the question would be, can it be taught systematically with achievable results that doesn't take 20 years to accomplish?

sure, you see and hear folks mentioned that they, either themselves or in someone else, have done those mysterious power and so on, but mostly accidental. the question is can it be trained and controlled at will, instead of accidental occurrences. i am pretty sure that sort of questions have been asked by the asian martial arts for millenniums. It's a teachable skill, not the snake oil stuffs. in so far that the chinese (possibly Indian too) developed the language to describe various components of such practices. i don't think the japanese was that advance, since they had not developed the language to even describe it.

the point is internal strength/IP/IT and aiki are systematically trainable skills. it's not the be-all of martial arts, but an important component of it, possible one of the foundational stones. my guess is that many arts have made this the secret ingredient of their secret sauce (wonder if more folks know about this stuffs, would it still be secret?). and yes, it might shorten the time for you be good at whatever martial arts that you are doing, but it doesn't mean it easy or require less training; in fact, it's the opposite. not many can or willing to travel this road; it's hopeless for the fast food generations.
That's a good explanation, sounds about right to me....
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Old 01-20-2011, 09:49 AM   #144
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
But did your teachers really develop all that power simply through practice of the standard techniques? Just think of all those guys, as powerful as they were, being the students of Morihei Ueshiba. And as powerful as he was, being well below the level of Sokaku Takeda! I just can't see that calisthenics and regular aikido and judo technique would have created that kind of power in those men. And we all hope that you can shed some light on what they did below the surface.

Thank you.

David
I've a feeling I know what it is.......
But I aint telling you.....

Last edited by akiy : 01-20-2011 at 09:56 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:25 AM   #145
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I'm honored just to be on the same thread with you, Sir T.Rex!
Now that got a smile

I hope you'll never stop posting.

Do you mean "woo-woo" or the internal power training?

There are so many things out there under a variety of names that warrant a BS icon...Deep down people know what they are doing is genuine or BS, you don't need to smell it.

I've been sick of the woo-woo for decades.

Look after your health, I am afraid you will get a lot sicker.

But the internal power is quite another subject.

I doubt you can buy that, I believe it is what comes with the serious training package.

I don't think anyone on this thread looks for anything "mystical" in training--just the essence of what real power means in Asian martial arts.

You must be missing a lot of the threads and messages

Did any of those guys ever demonstrate immovability in a natural stance against a push, or several people pushing?

Yes, I did see that a few times, I think Noro Sensei was more into that than the other teachers.

I knew a fellow once in Alabama who was in his seventies (a long time ago) who started jujutsu in 1917. Looking back, when I tried to push him around in judo, it was like pushing on a makiwara post. He was much smaller than I, but I couldn't move him at all. He would flex a little, but I couldn't make him move his feet unless he wanted to, and then he would flex back into me and send me flying. He certainly never would have classed himself with K. Abbe or his peers, but he remains among the top five or six I've ever met.

Are you talking about that kind of power? Flexible, but so very hard.

Abbe Sensei spent a lot of effort in both Judo and Aikido on the power of relaxation.

And then untouchable as well as both immoveable and unstoppable. Really beautiful.

The early teachers were first Judoka, Abbe 8th dan ~ Abe 3rd dan ~ Nakazono 6th dan also Chiba was a Judoka. I found their Aikido more powerful....very different to teachers who had never studied Judo.

I've seen your website. Have you considered writing a book? Maybe Stan Pranin would publish it. I'd buy it.

I have one book " Positive Aikido "...It comes with a warning inside the front cover, not to buy this book if you are looking for fantasy Aikido or floating around the planets ( something to that effect ).
If my health is OK ? I hope to get to NM this year to work on the next book as we have so much material to add...Positive Aikido is available on Amazon...


But the people you mention could do amazing things with anyone, couldn't they? (and we're not interested in the goo-goo, woo-woo)

They had amazing technique with many yeras of dedicated practice.

I think watching that would have the same effect as a laxative!

One would think so, the guy was so pleased with himself that he has made several vidoe's, I guess he is a believer.

But did your teachers really develop all that power simply through practice of the standard techniques? Just think of all those guys, as powerful as they were, being the students of Morihei Ueshiba. And as powerful as he was, being well below the level of Sokaku Takeda! I just can't see that calisthenics and regular aikido and judo technique would have created that kind of power in those men. And we all hope that you can shed some light on what they did below the surface.

All the afore mentioned lived a life of Budo.
When Kenshiro Abbe Sensei arrived in the UK in 1955 at the invitation of the LJS, he felt that the British dan grades did not respect him ...Sensei at 40 yrs of age, walked along a line of 33 dan grades, he challenged them all to full contest...He then told each dan grade what technique he would use, and he also informed them whether it would be a left or right handed ..They all gave their best, Sensei easliy beat them all...........


Regards

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/

Last edited by akiy : 01-20-2011 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:07 AM   #146
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

I find the general discussion to have taken a weird turn
Internal strength is woo woo now?
Yet we are then given examples of a few Aikido teachers who sparred with a legendary Judoka and felt like "Fighting a ghost" with no explanations of how that could be.
We are told.."I think I know what they did but I am not going to tell you."
Along with anyone talking about internal power is "prancing with ribbons"...even though plenty of people have stated it is anything but.

To Tony and Henry
I can only say you are exhibiting an incredible amount of hubris to your own senior practitioners to assume -you and you alone - get what B.S. practice means- considering you came into the discussion commenting that your own years of experience and the value of YOUR OWN opinions were discounted by others here..you then proceeded to discount those of your peers.

I won't correct you for chastising your fellow 6th dans and Shihans (who have actually got up away from their keyboards and felt and tested those of us teaching this stuff),opinions nor will I correct you for dismissing the opinions of hundreds of MA people here to include teachers of Aikido, DR, Judo, Karate and FMA as well as practitioners of MMA as meaningless either. Apparently...you....never having felt, seen, or understand what they are discussing, understand it all better than they do.

I am mindful that neither of you have said anything of value relating to the topic other than to point to others you think "had it"...which is fascinating because.... with your next breath...
you dismiss your peers who say the same thing about us as not only "having it" but showing how to train it.
A very interesting, albeit totally illogical, approach to a discussion IMO, it cancels out everyone in the discussion as an idiot and not having an opinion worth listening to. It reminds of someone else's approach to debating I often critique here.
Oh well. I bear you no ill will.
Continue on.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-20-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 11:28 AM   #147
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Yet we are then given examples of a few Aikido teachers who sparred with a legendary Judoka and felt like "Fighting a ghost" with no explanations of how that could be.
This is not what Ellis said. There were not 33 aikido dan grades (and much less teachers) in all the UK in 1955 and the "fighting a ghost" was Kimura description of an event happened years before Abbe Sensei met Ueshiba.

Quote:
And while you applaud MMA and Judo, you give no credence to Judo and MMA practitioners who themselves have stated here this type of training has worth to their practice.
Tell'em who they are. Via PM if they don't want their names made public, but tell them: "I'm coaching X guy, who is member of the Y team" and let them decide what to do or what to think about the value of IT/IS training

Last edited by Demetrio Cereijo : 01-20-2011 at 11:34 AM. Reason: typo

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Old 01-20-2011, 11:44 AM   #148
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
This is not what Ellis said. There were not 33 aikido dan grades (and much less teachers) in all the UK in 1955 and the "fighting like a ghost" was Kimura description of an event happened years before Abbe Sensei met Ueshiba.
I was referring to Abbe, and others they mentioned. Where he got it Tomiki got it and others like Ueshiba, got it, wasn't germain to the point.

Quote:
Tell'em who they are. Via PM if they don't want their names made public, but tell them: "I'm coaching X guy, who is member of the Y team" and let them decide what to do or what to think about the value of IT/IS training
They are right here and have written in many times, others have been written about- and they span so many different arts and MMA that I am sick of writing the same thing over and over.. I have no interest in cutting and pasting to try and prove some point that will just be dismissed.
I see no interest in a logical debate, If someone isn't following the years of discussion and holds some very strong opinions while dismissing everyone else's, that's fine by me. While I have no interest in beating the dead horse all over again, I did want to point out the logic for others. .
Cheers
Dan
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:01 PM   #149
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I see no interest in a logical debate, If someone isn't following the years of discussion and holds some very strong opinions while dismissing everyone else's, that's fine by me. While I have no interest in beating the dead horse all over again, I did want to point out the logic for others.
Cheers
Dan
No problem Dan.

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Old 01-20-2011, 03:40 PM   #150
aikilouis
Location: Germany
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I am not interested in debating in this fathomless subject. I will reply to Ludwig's request..Despite my opinions once being dismissed on this forum with " What does Henry Ellis know ? he is just a dinosaur of Aikido " ....I thought it was a rather nice comliment

I do agree with much of Tony's thinking on this subject. As I gather he is as dismayed as I am at much of what we see being offered in the name of Aikido...

I have never seen any of my early teachers do what I would call mystical techniques or its scientific term BS, Kenshiro Abbe - Tadashi Abe - M Nakazono - M Noro - along with Tada - Tamura - Ichimura and my long study with Chiba Sensei........

.What I have seen in all of the above and K Abbe more than anyone else is amazingly powerful technique, not just the execution of the technique, but a power that if I was asked to describe it? I could only say it was a combination of a great technique with internal power or strength.....With Abbe Sensei, one always knew you were ````going ```` how you went was up to you, you would be thrown...... The great Judoka Kimura Sensei once described his only loss to K Abbe as " It was like fighting a shadow ".

At the Hut Dojo in the late 1950s early 60s, we had a young dan grade named Trevor Jones, he was one of the first of eight dan grades in the UK. All the other seven dan grades were a little older and harder . Derek Eastman and I still discuss the special power that young Trevor had, I have not seen that in any other person. Noro Sensei thought he was special and sent him to Japan ( that is another story )
There are many displays of amazing ``stuff `` in Aikido, much, or most can only be done with the teachers own students.
When someone has been in Aikido a long time as I have, it is painful to watch someone ( example ) doing Aikido with ribbons, claiming this to be good for movement, perhaps a laxative would offer better movement..........

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
Thank you for your answer.

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