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Old 01-19-2011, 03:13 AM   #101
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Marc Abrams wrote: View Post
Tony,

You have every right to not want to explore this stuff. It is simply your decision. You have heard from numerous people who have clearly articulated the differences in the "IT stuff" and pointed out that if you have not put your time in directly with this stuff, you really do not know it (and therefore cannot do it). You can pretend that you can do it, but you simply stand out as the prince without his clothing on. You can pretend that it is all nonsense and you still act like that same prince.

You have been offered opportunities to experience some of this stuff first-hand and you do not want to have to put your words to genuine reality tests. That is fine as well, because it is simply your decision. I would just respectfully request that you simply stop with the negative comments about things that you do not really know about and do not want to find out about. That way, people can continue to discuss aspects of an art that you do not believe in, want to do, etc. without having to digress to address your overly-testosterone based perception of your reality of things.

Regards,

Marc Abrams
Marc, I know what I know and that is good enough for me....
When I see these people in the ring/cage up against a real fighter who is not going to collude with this nonsense, abide by no rules, put their money on the line, then I will believe it.... until then......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-19-2011 at 03:17 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 06:46 AM   #102
Marc Abrams
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Marc, I know what I know and that is good enough for me....
When I see these people in the ring/cage up against a real fighter who is not going to collude with this nonsense, abide by no rules, put their money on the line, then I will believe it.... until then......
Dan Harden fits that bill. But then again, this has been pointed out to you, so "until then" has been met and yet still avoid the issue.

Marc
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:23 AM   #103
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

As a qualifier in the discussion, IP/aiki does not validate fighting skill. Fighting skill validates fighting skill. So any reasonable guy can say....so what?

Interestingly enough you have Rickson Gracie the families greatest fighter with a winning record ten times greater than anyone else in the family. He credits his power and conditioning to solo training, breath training, yoga, and taiji.
Ricksons choice of conditioning is but one component to his overall skills...skills honed by MMA...and fighting,
Do you think the guys who train for three years and lift really care or will listen? Do you think they even have the capacity to figure out the componants that beat them, when all of their coaches are into western methods?

Methods and conditioning
For the naysaers like Tony, they have their own very valid points. Why invest in a method that has not been proved? I had a guy-a serious MMAer from California- come to my teaching Seminar. He liked it alright, but he came to my dojo after, and wanted to put the gloves on and go at it with me.
Why?
He... didn't want to invest in a method that could not be vetted.
Why is that not to be considered intelligent as well?
Now,, I beat the ______ out of him in front of everyone there,.but what if my fighting skills were not up to snuff? Would it have invalidated Ip/aiki? Sadly to him....yes...it proably would have. It would have been a mistake in judgement, but I think he would have walked away.

If Rickson wasn't a good fighter...do you think we would be discussing his conditioning? That any one would care?
Takeda was a legend and killed people as well as fought many fighters.
Ueshiba was a good fighter in his middle years.
If they were not... do you think we would be discussing IP/aiki in the 21st century
That any one would care?
Wang Chu shins I.P. impressed Draeger, Relnick, Smith Blumming, Chiba, but apparently, only two of them were bright enough to actually go train with the man.

With IP/aiki too many people confuse it and think you are talking about some namby pambie aiki nonsense. I don't fault them at all. If I had not tested this and tested it time and again, you couldn't have gotten me to look at it twice. Hell, two years in.... I QUIT.
Why?
I couldn't get it to work when I sparred with my crew. Would I EVER go back now? Not on your life. This is the superior way to move and hit.

IP/aiki is unusual enough that you can do things normal people can't do. I show that and then leave it up to them to decide if they think they can use it in their arts or in fighting. Otherwise this turns into a Wild Wild West show with the fastest draw I am willing to coach, I am not going to travel around fighting people anymore.

The poster boys that the kids see on the TEE VEE are the ones who get the fame, while the ones who made them... their coaches and trainers are the real stars. They were there before them and will be there after them. I thought it was great that in a program to laud Anderson Silva...Silva chose to show his family and his coaches and talk about them.

Methods and conditioning like MT, BJJ, Judo and Boxing are learning paradigms, greater than any ..one.. player; IP/aiki is greater than any..one..person, no matter who that person is.
Most intelligent Martial artists know this already.

IP/aiki is not needed to learn to fight and it does not teach you how to fight. As a conditioning system for knockout power and being hard to throw and for overall power it is superior and doesn't fade like normal strength. More importantly it is the cornerstone of what made the asian arts great.
And most intelligent people are listening and learning that as well

All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-19-2011 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:29 AM   #104
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
...I know what I know and that is good enough for me....
When I see these people in the ring/cage up against a real fighter who is not going to collude with this nonsense, abide by no rules, put their money on the line, then I will believe it.... until then......
Tony....are you a ring fighter?

Was Ueshiba?

Tadashi Abe?

You've heard from Budd, who does MMA and Dan, who trains MMA fighters and gets out with them on the mat...

"I know what I know and that is good enough for me..."

I remember saying something similar to Rob John a few years ago. And then I learned a little more and realized that what I thought I knew was not nearly good enough.

Sure, it's good enough for farthing around and telling stories over beer, but it's just a shadow of what real aiki can be.

Tell you what: just don't start posting computer renderings of force undulations and gyroscopic rotation and I'll let this be my last to you on this subject.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-19-2011, 08:54 AM   #105
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hi David
I think comments like "people who are not going to collude with this nonsense" States the limits of Tony's understanding of the subject.
And that is NOT a put down to Tony. Hell I get where he's coming from all too well.
It just tells you of his exposure to real IP and real aiki. I mean come on, most reasonable people who can fight look at the aiki world and what they think is taiji and scoff. I think rightly so. I did too.
How in thee hell am I going to fault Tony for stating my own postion twenty years ago?

IP and aiki skills are a stand alone skill sets Marc and I were discussing this yesterday, but like it or not, approve or not, we are talking martial arts, and people want to see stuff that works. Some people have difficulty meeting and feeling some IP aiki coaches and "understanding" or figuring out, how it translates into actual fighting. I at least...try... to make it obvious. I haven't heard the word "collusion" applied to me when I am moving. I bet Ark as well. And from what I hear no one is going to be"colluding" with Mike any time soon either. I suspect there a dozens of guys here laughing their asses off at that comment...even though they get where Tony is coming from.
Cheers
Dan
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Old 01-19-2011, 09:54 AM   #106
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Tony, are you aware of the relationship between Tadashi Abe and the Tempukai?


The problem for people like Tony is the IT/IS coaches can not (for different motives) provide the names of fighters* who by, following their conditioning methods became the equivalents of, for instance, Rickson or Ribeiro with their yoga/ginastica natural. You'are asking for a serious leap of faith.

*Because this is a martial arts forum. If this were a surfing, contemporary dancing, soccer or another discipline forum we coud ask for similar examples.

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Old 01-19-2011, 10:01 AM   #107
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Tony, are you aware of the relationship between Tadashi Abe and the Tempukai?
I think maybe Tony has a background in boxing or some kind of serious fighting.

However...as a 4th dan in aikido, it's hard to believe that he has trained only with people who had ring experience--and were winners in all cases.

Can you elaborate on Abe and Tempukai?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:04 AM   #108
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
How in thee hell am I going to fault Tony for stating my own postion twenty years ago?
Yeah. It was my position just about three years ago, too.

Thanks for your help and Mike's and Ark's and Rob's and Budd's and Jang's and Andy's and so many people who helped me see my error.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:15 AM   #109
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hi David

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Can you elaborate on Abe and Tempukai?
Q:You mentioned the Tempukai earlier. Tohei Sensei was also involved in that organization. Is that where he got his ki exercises?
A:I think he was influenced by the Tempu system, but those exercises were mainly his own creation after he went to Hawaii.

Q:Were you part of the Tempukai yourself? Tadashi Abe was.
A:Not me, but rather Abe. Tempu Sensei and O-Sensei were the only ones for Abe. Tohei Sensei was also a Tempukai member. So was my father, and Abe's father who sponsored O-Sensei, and Tada Sensei as well.

Q:Were there any others among the main teachers?
A: There may have been. At that time in aikido there were the Tempukai group, and the group that was involved with the macrobiotics organization of Nyoichi Sakurazawa Sensei [known as Georges Ohsawa in the West].

Interview with Yamada Y. Sensei

Tempukai is the organization founded by Nakamura Tempu

I hope this helps.

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Old 01-19-2011, 10:22 AM   #110
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Tony, are you aware of the relationship between Tadashi Abe and the Tempukai?


The problem for people like Tony is the IT/IS coaches can not (for different motives) provide the names of fighters* who by, following their conditioning methods became the equivalents of, for instance, Rickson or Ribeiro with their yoga/ginastica natural. You'are asking for a serious leap of faith.

*Because this is a martial arts forum. If this were a surfing, contemporary dancing, soccer or another discipline forum we coud ask for similar examples.
Well, I think its obvious that I agree with that.
But following your logic...
TMA of all types Asian and modern have not yet produced the equivalent of those men either...and they never will. They are MMA people. Hence the reason I have been doing MMA most of my life. On the other hand I have produced men who can fight..and have fought. I don't know about other people and their students.
To further that point most MMA coaches of all types have not produced a steady stream of fighters with 368 to 1 records either. So the point is?

I still maintain that IP/aiki is...on contact... an obviously valuable skill and moreover feel different. either that or Tony is basically right in saying that hundreds of teachers, TMA and MMA people here are all morons.

We can't have it both ways, the logic in the debate has to run its course. If it is "collusion and nonsense" and yet as a skill set it is vetted by all these people...then
a) They are stupid, don't really get martial matters and are not to be judged as credible witnesses, or
b) They know they have encountered something very different from their prior experience..

But hey...why bust poor Tony. Mike says all the time that you can essentially throw out all these witnesses as well....because they don't get it and are poor judges of anything regarding IP and aiki.
So what do you have?
1. Tony says all the reports are nonsense and discounts them all.
2. Mike agrees! Further he continues to tell everyone who will listen that they should as well, That no one knows what they are talking about or what they felt in the first place no matter who it is from.

I don't fault anyone for arguing either way, I just am trying to follow the logic in the argument from all sides.
Just say'n
Dan .
. .
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:42 AM   #111
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Well, I think its obvious that I agree with that.
But following your logic...
TMA of all types Asian and modern have not yet produced the equivalent of those men either...and they never will. They are MMA people. Hence the reason I have been doing MMA most of my life. On the other hand I have produced men who can fight..and have fought. I don't know about other people and their students.
To further that point most MMA coaches of all types have not produced a steady stream of fighters with 368 to 1 records either. So the point is?
The point is that following the training regime of, lets say for instance, the Ribeiro brothers or Rickson can be seen as a safer bet for those who are interested in obtaining fighting skills.

The point of aiki skills being stand alone skillsets useful in other disciplines can be approached the same way. If I wanted to point a contemporay dance friend towards an IT/IS coach and he asked me which top ballet company is working with him, what could be the answer? Something in the lines of "look around and find it yourself" or "you do not need to know that" or "check the guy first and then tell me"?

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Old 01-19-2011, 11:41 AM   #112
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
We can't have it both ways, the logic in the debate has to run its course. If it is "collusion and nonsense" and yet as a skill set it is vetted by all these people...then
a) They are stupid, don't really get martial matters and are not to be judged as credible witnesses, or
b) They know they have encountered something very different from their prior experience..
Or
c) Both a and b at the same time
d) They are correct but lack the ability to convince skeptics using words because IHTBF.

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Old 01-19-2011, 12:00 PM   #113
Alfonso
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Re: Training Internal Strength

how can you help being skeptical when you can find stuff like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGWWW7X2Lmo mixed in.

Its so easy to find incredible levels of hokeyness in this area , it's much safer to approach it with the gullibility dial set to minimum.

Alfonso Adriasola
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:13 PM   #114
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

I'm trying to get the jist here....
I'm not saying genuine internal strength does not exist, what I would like to know is define internal strength..... I figure it to be conditioning, not "mystical power" or throwing imaginary "ki" balls
I know "Internal" strength exists!! To some extent I have experienced it myself, maybe not to the levels that some have achieved, such as Dan and the like.... How does one gauge these things?
I'll try and explain....... I can do all the "aiki" things with my son who has not yet practised aikido, but has a rational interest. He is very strong and well built for his age (19), so I use his sceptic attitude to do the "aiki" whilst he holds strongly or tries to escape from the waza that I apply (gently, I might add as I have no wish to hurt him) He tells me he is unable to resist, and feels totally off balance, or unable to move as he is helpless, so I am going by his response. I have also trained this way with all my students and ask them to resist with all they have, I still move them easily and make my waza successful. They don't doubt what I'm doing is fake....Maybe I am getting the wrong end of the stick here.....? All the so called "ki" tests I can do, so what is it I am supposed to be " Not getting"......?
I see these as body mechanics and knowing how to relax, the hard thing, is to do it whilst under pressure, that is where fighting skill comes in. If you are a bad fighter all the internal power in the world is not going to win the fight for you, only fortitude, skill and the mentality behind this will do that.....

What I am getting at or dismissing is throwing "ki" balls and the like, or shouting or "looking" at someone is going to throw them, it's just complete and utter nonsense, woo woo and "money" to me, we all know that.... or should do....
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Old 01-19-2011, 12:25 PM   #115
Keith Larman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Tony:

Well, having met and trained with a number of people who've responded to you in this thread I seriously doubt most would disagree with much of what you have written. And without question most have little use for the "shooting balls of ki" stuff.

Ellis Amdur in his book "Hidden in Plain Sight" posits an interesting theory that some develop some of these body attributes through the years of hard training including taking a lot of ukemi. Which to me as a guy interested in psych and epistemology is really intriguing. Because one could argue that if his theory is correct then many who have developed some of these skills through their training may have no idea that they've developed actual physical structures that others lack. Hence when they say things like "they relax under pressure" they're actually doing something substantially different from what their students are doing. And the simple fact is that they can't communicate what exactly they're doing because a) they don't realize what they're doing is something different from what they think they're doing and b) the student on the other end lacks the physical structures to be able to do it themselves no matter how hard they try to relax. Just as an example.

But I'm just plodding along myself trying to figure it out. Carry on...

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Old 01-19-2011, 01:25 PM   #116
kewms
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What I am getting at or dismissing is throwing "ki" balls and the like, or shouting or "looking" at someone is going to throw them, it's just complete and utter nonsense, woo woo and "money" to me, we all know that.... or should do....
I think it's important to differentiate between training tools and practical effects, though. I'm not a fan of the idea of shooting ki balls out my fingertips, either, but thinking in those terms *does* have a clear and measurable effect on the guy holding onto my arm. Looking at my partner's eyes is more effective than looking at my own wrist. And so forth.

We can argue all day about what ki "really" is or what is "really" happening at a physical level to produce these effects. It's an interesting discussion, but from the standpoint of learning, teaching, and using this stuff, I just don't care. If a given visualization helps someone to do something I can't, or (better yet) helps them teach me to duplicate it, then I couldn't care less whether that visualization reflects physical reality or not. If you want to mock Tohei Sensei's ki exercises (or whatever), fine, but how does your aikido compare to his?

Katherine
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:37 PM   #117
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Trying to keep the "Training Internal Strength" topic-header in mind and include Tony into the larger picture....

I'm not particular concerned or put out with Tony's remarks; in fact, to me there's a certain amount of humor in reading Tony's writings, his biography on his webpage, and so on. Some classic reading. In a way Tony indicates that people attempting to do Aikido with so-called internal-strength skills don't understand the real, hard world of fighting as he knows it. I seldom get into these discussions for the simple reason that I've been in plenty of hard fights in my life, but I don't see where it has much to do with the topic. Someone can be good at "internal strength" and yet that tells us nothing about whether they're good at fighting or not. Some of the people who were good at internal strength in the last few centuries never did submission fighting but they killed a number of people in straight-out all-on-the-line fights. So they weren't any good at fighting? Please.

On the other hand, a, for instance, 23-year-old woman might have extremely good i.s. skills, but she might not last in an actual fight. Are her skills suddenly not valid because of that? That's a silly view. Getting internal strength skills is a separate topic from whether someone is a good fighter or not; the skills give an advantage in a fight, but they are not the full martial-art themselves.

On the other hand, as Ushiro Sensei noted: Aikido without kokyu skills is not complete.

If someone like Tony already knows everything, then I say more power to him. It's pointless to argue. Dan Harden made a point of mentioning people who, as they learned some basic things, "didn't know that they didn't know". Tony would undoubtedly fit into that category, as would a number of other people.

The problem with the "didn't know I didn't know" stuff is that it's not over yet. Some of the great attacks on peoples' characters happened during the great "Ki Wars" in various forums (Aikido-L, AikiWeb, etc.) and some of the people involved in the attacks (or sympathetic to them) have begun to realize that there was indeed something there that they hadn't known before. My viewpoint is that the same situation is still going on... the ki/kokyu topic still has a number of areas that people are unaware are even there. My point is that Tony falls into a recognizable category, but everyone should still be careful to understand that the same trap of "not knowing that I didn't know" is a continuing trap, not something now relegated to the past, so in effect Tony's not in a unique position....give him some slack. Don't worry about what Tony doesn't know, worry more about what you (we) don't know that can come out later and make us all look like chumps. Keep looking; comment less.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:48 PM   #118
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Some of the people who were good at internal strength in the last few centuries never did submission fighting but they killed a number of people in straight-out all-on-the-line fights. So they weren't any good at fighting? Please.
Lots of people have been killed by people with zero IS.

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Old 01-19-2011, 02:45 PM   #119
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Trying to keep the "Training Internal Strength" topic-header in mind and include Tony into the larger picture....

I'm not particular concerned or put out with Tony's remarks; in fact, to me there's a certain amount of humor in reading Tony's writings, his biography on his webpage, and so on. Some classic reading. In a way Tony indicates that people attempting to do Aikido with so-called internal-strength skills don't understand the real, hard world of fighting as he knows it. I seldom get into these discussions for the simple reason that I've been in plenty of hard fights in my life, but I don't see where it has much to do with the topic. Someone can be good at "internal strength" and yet that tells us nothing about whether they're good at fighting or not. Some of the people who were good at internal strength in the last few centuries never did submission fighting but they killed a number of people in straight-out all-on-the-line fights. So they weren't any good at fighting? Please.

On the other hand, a, for instance, 23-year-old woman might have extremely good i.s. skills, but she might not last in an actual fight. Are her skills suddenly not valid because of that? That's a silly view. Getting internal strength skills is a separate topic from whether someone is a good fighter or not; the skills give an advantage in a fight, but they are not the full martial-art themselves.

On the other hand, as Ushiro Sensei noted: Aikido without kokyu skills is not complete.

If someone like Tony already knows everything, then I say more power to him. It's pointless to argue. Dan Harden made a point of mentioning people who, as they learned some basic things, "didn't know that they didn't know". Tony would undoubtedly fit into that category, as would a number of other people.

The problem with the "didn't know I didn't know" stuff is that it's not over yet. Some of the great attacks on peoples' characters happened during the great "Ki Wars" in various forums (Aikido-L, AikiWeb, etc.) and some of the people involved in the attacks (or sympathetic to them) have begun to realize that there was indeed something there that they hadn't known before. My viewpoint is that the same situation is still going on... the ki/kokyu topic still has a number of areas that people are unaware are even there. My point is that Tony falls into a recognizable category, but everyone should still be careful to understand that the same trap of "not knowing that I didn't know" is a continuing trap, not something now relegated to the past, so in effect Tony's not in a unique position....give him some slack. Don't worry about what Tony doesn't know, worry more about what you (we) don't know that can come out later and make us all look like chumps. Keep looking; comment less.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
I wish I did know everything Mike or I wouldn't be so ruddy poor...
I'm trying to put the rational into this and take out the "mystical", Make it accessible to anyone interested, who wants to develop their skills in this way and get out of the "trap" of thinking they know "aiki" but really don't....?
How to get their waza to work in a shorter time and not take twenty years to achieve it..... I also believe there are a lot of lazy people in aikido, who cheapen it and make it look ridiculous, I'm after making it real and tangible for those willing to put the effort into it, as after all it's what it takes is "effort" and lots of it !!
That is or seems to becoming a rare commodity these days.....
Am I wrong in saying this?......
Maybe we should take out the words "aiki" and "kokyu" and try to translate it into something that people can understand, grasp and put into practice..... this would go along way into getting rid of the argument that will undoubtedly go on for some time yet..... I'd put money on that!!! Actually, no I wouldn't as I don't have any.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-19-2011 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:55 PM   #120
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Maybe we should take out the words "aiki" and "kokyu" and try to translate it into something that people can understand, grasp and put into practice..... this would go along way into getting rid of the argument that will undoubtedly go on for some time yet..... I'd put money on that!!! Actually, no I wouldn't as I don't have any.....
Tony, those words have pretty practical meanings, but if you had already known that you wouldn't have posted the things that you posted. Hence, you don't know some pretty important things and your "observations" are explained. As I said, that doesn't bother me in the least (what you know)... I'm tickled to see you carry on with whatever it is that you're doing, so don't get me wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:58 PM   #121
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Lots of people have been killed by people with zero IS.
Isn't that the point?
No one...not one...is saying it's necessary to fight or will teach you to fight. IMO,it is a great aid though, should you choose to do so.

I...am stating that:
a) it is the cornerstone of the Asian arts.
b) It is the source of aiki
c) it IS a better more efficient way to do martial arts
d) it doesn't diminish with age like normal power does

Seems to me that those advocating it are NOT over-selling it. A good way to put it is to quote Some teachers
Bill Gleason "This is what I went to Japan to find."
George Ledyard "I wasted about 25 years training in a way that one day I realized would never result in the skills my own teacher had."
Ikeda has so many You would have to look them up.
Howard told everyone here what he Thought
Two Daito ryu Shihans changed their training on being shown certain ways to train.
It is rather interesting that people with up to 45 years experience in Budo made a dynamic shift upon feeling those who train this way!.
Everyone else can keep lifting, doing cardio and circuit training as far as I'm concerned. I wish them well.
All the best
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-19-2011 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:09 PM   #122
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Tony, those words have pretty practical meanings, but if you had already known that you wouldn't have posted the things that you posted. Hence, you don't know some pretty important things and your "observations" are explained. As I said, that doesn't bother me in the least (what you know)... I'm tickled to see you carry on with whatever it is that you're doing, so don't get me wrong.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
I have my vays of extracting vhat I need to extract. Maybe I have it maybe I don't, but I relate to what some of you are trying to say here and that is a good thing...... I am a cynical old bastard when I get down to it, so I won't apologise for the sarky humour, it had a purpose.....
Nothing personal, believe me, I'm quite cuddly really.....
You now have my interest.......
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:12 PM   #123
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
A good way to put it is to quote Some teachers
Bill Gleason "This is what I went to Japan to find."
George Ledyard "I wasted about 25 years training in a way that one day I realized would never result in the skills my own teacher had."
Ikeda has so many You would have to look them up.
Howard told everyone here what he Thought
Two Daito ryu Shihans changed their training on being shown certain ways to train.
It is rather interesting that people with up to 45 years experience in Budo made a dynamic shift upon feeling those who train this way!.
That's great news. They were happy to find out what they didn't know before (Hmmmm.... if it's the "cornerstone" of their art, how were they shihans?). Imagine how happy they would be if they find out there are some extremely important aspects to add on top of the ones they've recently found! Then again, ignorance can be bliss, as we've seen in the past from the number of people angrily denouncing the idea that there was anything that they didn't know.

My comment is more or less along the lines that a lot of these skills are just getting started (re-started, actually) and I think there are more surprises to come if people can get an information source. Overall, these conversations are pretty interesting to watch, but frankly I just view them as some of the preliminary approaches to a difficult, but desirable objective. I was probing around 5 or 6 years ago trying to get an idea via anecdotes about Tohei exactly how much he really knew. It's a productive area, IMO.

FWIW

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:14 PM   #124
Mike Sigman
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I have my vays of extracting vhat I need to extract.
Then you're all sorted out and I'm happy for you.

Best.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:37 PM   #125
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I'm not saying genuine internal strength does not exist, what I would like to know is define internal strength..... I figure it to be conditioning, not "mystical power" or throwing imaginary "ki" balls...
Sure. I just don't recall anyone's mentioning "ki balls" on this thread. And I just did a whole thread on ki, but no one mentioned "ki balls" there, either.

As far as defining it, I'll put a summary out for comment.

Internal Strength training involves balancing and using six elements for martial effectiveness:

bones
muscles
fascia
breath
ki
mind (intent)

Four of these elements are strictly physical, while ki is sort of mental/physical and "mind" is strictly mental.

Using the bones to carry force or bear weight instead of the muscles is one kind of internal strength. Likewise, using fascia instead of muscles is another.

But using bones, muscles, fascia and breath together (instead of mainly muscle) is a big beginning to IS.

However, I think it's the use of mind (intent) and ki that really make the difference in IS and "external" martial arts.

Notice that all these things have multiple functions and create multiple effects on the other elements: muscles can pull the bones out of alignment and "crimp" the fascia, making the breath shallow. Slack muscles can fail to transmit power through the system. Tight or slack fascia can do much the same. Plus, ki moves through the fascia, so any problem with the fascia will disrupt the actions of the ki. If the mind is too agitated, the ki will be agitated and the body will likely be tense and the breath fast and shallow. Unsettled ki will, in turn, unsettle the mind, which will weaken the body and any interactions with others.

So internal power involves conditioning each of the elements according to their nature and using the elements together with all the other elements.

The best way to do all this is to put the ki in the center of the body by directing it there with the mind, and to coordinate all efforts and movements through the center--which means actually developing the connections between the hands and the center and the feet and the center and the head and the center. And that means training specifically to drive body movement through movement of the center. It also means using the mind to direct the ki into the intended movement and using that ki movement to move the center and thus the body.

A lot of this comes naturally through regular budo training. But that can be (and usually is) haphazard, leaving the practitioner wondering, sometimes, how he achieved some spectacular result because he unknowingly did the right things together and later can't replicate the feat. It is only by consciously recognizing and conditioning each of the elements according to its nature, and coordinating their use together consciously that we can start to develop "internal" methods and do things by intent rather than happenstance.

So that's my general description of internal methods, which, I think, will hold true for any internal art. Anyone who knows better, please correct me.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I know "Internal" strength exists!! To some extent I have experienced it myself, maybe not to the levels that some have achieved, such as Dan and the like.... How does one gauge these things?
The best way to gauge these things is to put hands on people whom others recognize as skilled in these matters and judge for yourself if your approach comes up to the level of theirs. And then listen to what they tell you.

People say "it has to be felt," but I got a lot of feeling out of reading people's posts and hearing other people's descriptions of meeting powerful people. Those were the experiences that led me to go out and meet Ark and Dan and to keep trying to meet up with Mike.

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What I am getting at or dismissing is throwing "ki" balls and the like, or shouting or "looking" at someone is going to throw them, it's just complete and utter nonsense, woo woo and "money" to me, we all know that.... or should do....
Yeah. We're all agreed on that. No one here has suggested any of those things. But we all suggest that you meet up with Mike, Dan, Ark or others known to have the goods. In one way, it saves you a lot of work to do this stuff. But that's only by doing a LOT of work to get there. It's both easier and harder than ordinary aikido and as they say, it's tougher for the mind than for the body. But it's exhilarating. Worth every minute.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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