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Old 01-23-2011, 05:07 PM   #276
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
You think that's a difference that only you can see? You challenge people to get out and test and then challenge the credibility of those that have.
You talk to people as if they cannot tell the difference between external and internal or be able to separate IP from waza particularly those in an art that routinely separates aiki from waza, all while telling people on the internet, IHTBF, obviously because IT CAN BE FELT AS DIFFERENT
All while turning around and telling those same people that even then they can't tell the difference between what they felt and what is real IP. Making a tacit argument that YOU and well...God only knows who else.....can.
all while the ICMA themselves talk endlessly about the internal and external being combined in harmony and proved through a blending of internally driven external testing,
All while you challenge all information and offer nothing but baby steps in return, while alluding to you knowing more, while publicly stating you will not offer it as people need to "figure it out for themselves"
All while stating the Japanese arts had no IP then changing your own mind and stating there was more there than you thought
All while certain of us lowly Japanese artists have now met and crossed hands with grand masters of those internal arts...who suck just a bad as many of the teachers being discussed here. And met other grand masters who had genuine power but who could not simply overcome us dumb Japanese artists.
All while you admitted that certain ICMA grandmaster level guys handed you your ass...through...uhm...IP...in use.
We are all on a journey and learning, killing the messengers and killing the message is a disservice to the debate. I keep hoping for better.
Dan
Sorry, couldn't make heads or tails or what you're trying to say. Can you give me some quotes where I'm "challenging" people, etc.? I'm not sure what "baby steps" are, but I know that there are some people that use the buzzwords in their workshops that come from the QiJin forum, so I guess the "baby-steps" are probably good enough for them to impress the rubes with.

In terms of: "All while stating the Japanese arts had no IP then changing your own mind and stating there was more there than you thought.".... Can you give me a quote? I've never said any such thing, as I recall it. I've known that Tohei used internal strength since the 1970's and have said so, as archived numerous times. So, quote please?

In terms of people "handing my a$$", could I get another quote please? I seldom talk much about myself, so such a quote should be easy to find. Heck, I don't even talk about other people or fixate on them, so it should be doubly easy to find.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:14 PM   #277
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Well I dont think they care much about the name(If they did, they would have chosen something more easy to pronounce I guess ).
Well, why call it something it's not--especially if they don't care much about the name? I can see calling it any kind of karate--because it has roots in karate. But why call it aiki-jutsu if it has no roots in Japanese aiki-jutsu? It doesn't add to the credibility and lends an air of fraudulence to the art. But also, to call a thing something that it's not...isn't that just basic dishonesty? And if that's true, what else is dishonest about it?

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Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
But Aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, and i think Kyusho Aiki Jutsu sums our school up quite well. Kyusho (Pressure points/one second fight), Aiki (The joining of ki) and Jutsu (Technique). It is simply a way of saying that we do, because our art is pieced together by so many different other arts.
But, apparently, aiki-jutsu is not one of those arts. So why not call it some kind of karate? Just because aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, doesn't mean it's not the name of a specific real art. And it's highly misleading to call a karate art "aiki-jutsu".

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I don't think that Dillman's techniques have ever been busted, but it has been proved that one is able to counter and resist these things if they whish and know they are coming.
Even by untrained people? Why show something that doesn't even work on a martially-untrained scientist of 125 pounds with his eyes closed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Everyone in Kyusho knows this and Dillmann even tells about it openly, but people are only interested in his failure. As I said earlier, this technique is much easier to do if the person is out of balance to start with, and do not know what is coming. Just like Aikido where techniques are much easier to apply if uke is unbalanced and do not know the technique.
Sorry, but he should have stuck with the pressure points and kept calling it karate. It's misrepresntation to call it aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:23 PM   #278
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?
No secrecy man, I not only get out and about regularly, I follow up with people. I've now met and trained with hundreds of MA. I hate video. I hope you can see that I am not interested in B.S. either, and hold you no ill will for doubting someone you have never met. Like yourself, some things in the MA are getting a bit old. Like having to stand in a room full of strangers and prove things about a subject most are unfamiliar with and do so...over and over!!

All the best
Dan
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:40 PM   #279
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
No secrecy man, I not only get out and about regularly, I follow up with people. I've now met and trained with hundreds of MA. I hate video. I hope you can see that I am not interested in B.S. either, and hold you no ill will for doubting someone you have never met. Like yourself, some things in the MA are getting a bit old. Like having to stand in a room full of strangers and prove things about a subject most are unfamiliar with and do so...over and over!!

All the best
Dan
Dan, even so, put it up and lets see. Let us be the judge of that, if I think it's worthwhile looking into....... I'll come.... promise I won't knock it, just want to see before I make any commitment, I already know the feel, just want to see....
If not........... not interested....... sorry...
Best to you to....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-23-2011 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:00 PM   #280
thisisnotreal
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

okay?
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:10 PM   #281
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
ha ha ha love it!!!
Not far off the truth though.....
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:11 AM   #282
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, why call it something it's not--especially if they don't care much about the name? I can see calling it any kind of karate--because it has roots in karate. But why call it aiki-jutsu if it has no roots in Japanese aiki-jutsu? It doesn't add to the credibility and lends an air of fraudulence to the art. But also, to call a thing something that it's not...isn't that just basic dishonesty? And if that's true, what else is dishonest about it?

But, apparently, aiki-jutsu is not one of those arts. So why not call it some kind of karate? Just because aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, doesn't mean it's not the name of a specific real art. And it's highly misleading to call a karate art "aiki-jutsu".

Even by untrained people? Why show something that doesn't even work on a martially-untrained scientist of 125 pounds with his eyes closed?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg5d1YGI

Sorry, but he should have stuck with the pressure points and kept calling it karate. It's misrepresntation to call it aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu.

Best to you.

David
Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata. What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.

It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.

The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.

I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:17 AM   #283
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Training Internal Strength

LOL.

I dont know why you guys deal with such people. He's pretty much on my ignore now.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-24-2011, 02:17 AM   #284
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Josh Philipson wrote: View Post
Haha, I like that!
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Old 01-24-2011, 07:34 AM   #285
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Well it's definitely not karate, that would be very misleading to call it that, although we do use some kenpo/karate kata.
But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
What Hogan or Dillman do might be more karate like. I don't know why you think it loses it's credibility? Though I can understand your confused about the name, I was confused myself to start with.
No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
It has some roots in karate, but we are working with the blending of energy, the avoidance of attack, entering, side stepping and generally soft techniques. There are no bone-breaking techniques like traditional karate. Therefore I still think the aiki-term is a good match.
Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
The art derives from Kyusho Jitsu which is only pressure points techniques. Kauhanen put this intosystem, and thought "Aiki" would fit well keeping in mind the way we train, and still showing some form of linage to Kyusho Jitsu.
But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I think Dillman had something to prove, and when ego steps in there is always a possibility of failing. To be honest, i think most people can block this just by wanting to prove it wrong. It is no golden gun.
Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:06 AM   #286
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
But it's also not aiki-jutsu, unless you can show me that somewhere down that line he has some roots and real connections with some kind of aiki-jutsu. If it's misleading to call it karate, from which it was developed, it's fifty times more misleading to call it aiki-jutsu, from which it was not developed and with which it has no connection. And in fact, it does look very much like karate to me. My karate teacher in Japan used very similar things, but I never saw any aiki-jutsu that looked much like what you're doing.

No, I'm not confused about the name. What if you made a wine out of canned grape juice from the grocery store and you called it cabernet sauvignon? Or what if one of your good friends started wearing an Army uniform and medals for valor in combat when he was never in the military? Would you want to be associated with that?

Aiki-jutsu has a well-earned name and reputation based on solid technical and internal methods. To make something up from karate and call it aiki-jutsu is literally to steal the name and reputation. And for what reason? If you know a thing is not something, but you sell it by that name, it's simply dishonest at the very best.

Then you wouldn't mind if you bought a diamond for your girlfriend and then learned that it was actually cubic zirconium?

This kind of thing was more effective when you couldn't find anyone within five-thousand miles who had even heard of aiki-jutsu or had ever been to Japan. But half the people on this thread have lived in Japan and have undergone extensive training with legitimate practitioners of aikido and/or aiki-jujutsu. And you're presenting karate to these people and calling it aiki. And you should know that people associated with Dillman are well-known for patching together bits of this and that and calling it by names of well-established arts with which they have no relation. What if I go about selling fake diamonds and telling people my name is Kirk Sorenson?

Doesn't that make clear sense to you?

But aiki is not something you just make up or that you can appropriate just because you found it written on a piece of paper in the trash. You can do that with people who have no real connection to the roots of these arts, but you should simply expect a lot of grief when you go around people who know--which is, the people here on this forum.

Yes? So....doesn't that make you feel that there's something wrong in being associated with that? I mean, you have the choice to buy one of two cars: a Lamborghini or a thing patched together from bits of Volkswagens and Ford Tauruses and Yugos with a Lamborghini ornament on the hood. Sure, the patchwork car is cheaper...but wouldn't you be embarrassed to show it to your friends and say "It's a Lamborghini?"

You're not that far from Japan. Why not just go on over and get the real thing? Or twenty years from now, you'll realize that you've invested your life in a lie.

Best of luck.

David
I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do? Now read this I found on wikipedia. It is excactly what we do:

"Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the application of internal strength or Ki energy to effect techniques. Blending with an attacker's movements allows the Aiki practitioner to control the actions of the attacker with minimal effort. One applies aiki by understanding the rhythm and intent of the attacker to find the optimal position and timing to apply a counter-technique."

Furthermore it says:

"It is found as a concept in arts as diverse as karate and judo. Aiki arts are generally classed as soft martial arts. The aiki arts place great emphasis on the use of qi energy. Techniques accomplished with aiki are subtle and require little mechanical force."

Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage? No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.

I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal. These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.

Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.

But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo.
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Old 01-24-2011, 08:58 AM   #287
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I do understand where you are going, but I have to disagree on the importance of the name. What is most important? Wheather or not KAJ has a linage which stretches back to japanese aiki-jutsu, or what we do?
What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Now it says that is found as concept in karate, so now we propably have a linage?
Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
No, it's not pure aiki-jutsu as practiced in japan, but it shure as hell follows the principles in every detail.
Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
I would rather say that this an older Skoda which performs like a Lamborghini. Sort of looks fake, but it's easily the real deal.
But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
These seminars are open to everyone, en sceptics who have come here have often been proved wrong.
Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Real martial arts look fake, but if you practiced with Vasiliev or Kauhanen, you would come to a whole other conclusion.
As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
But you'r right I could just go to Japan. I only live 5440 miles from Tokyo.
I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-24-2011, 09:38 AM   #288
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
What matters is the truth. Aiki is not something you can make up or snatch out of the air. It is directly associated with a line of people who established the method. By calling your art aiki-jutsu, you are claiming that your teachings come from those people. You might as well call yourselves the CIA. It's just as true as the claim that you do aiki. Wikipedia is at best a very general reference. If you want to claim aiki based on wikipedia's definition, you could also fit ballet into that same wide frame. So why not call your system ballet?

Not "probably" by any means. By wikipedia's definition you could "possibly" have some lineage. But then, you "could" have some lineage straight to the King of Denmark. In either case, you should have a line of documents from teacher to teacher, showing that the specific teachings were passed down to your teacher. If you have that, I'll be impressed. Otherwise, what you're doing is stealing a name and a reputation and your teacher is selling counterfeit goods as the real thing.

Kirk, the "principles" are not to be found "in every detail" on Wikipedia. The fact that you have to get the definition from such a source just shows that there is no real information on aiki available from your teacher. The "every detail" of aiki is contained in the teachings of the legitimate schools of aiki-jujutsu--not in a patched-together system of karate.

But it doesn't perform like a Lamborghini and what you've shown on your clips does not perform like aiki-jujutsu. And therefore it not only looks fake: it is fake. Real aiki works on people who are bigger, stronger, faster, balanced and ready to fight. And it does not include or attempt "no-touch knockouts" or any such foolishness. All that stuff is good for is to get someone hurt (and make a lot of money for the teacher based on the ignorance of people who accept false claims).

Well, you can't prove me wrong if you don't have a lineage to aiki-jujutsu. You can show me that the pressure point techniques are effective, but you can spray paint them gold and they will still not be aiki-jujutsu. If someone tells you a lie and you repeat it, it doesn't make you a liar--just mislead. But when you learn the truth and continue to proclaim the lie....that's bad.

As I said, I have experience with kyusho jutsu. I don't doubt that that's what your teacher is doing, even though it comes through the very dubious line of George Dillman's group (you should read some of the comments of people involved with Seiyu Oyata). But no amount of "saying so" makes your art aiki-jujutsu. and Vailiev does not teach aiki-jujutsu, so referencing him, you might as well tell me your teacher learned aiki from Franz Kafka.

I live about 10,000 miles from Tokyo and I went, stayed five years and trained closely with one of the original uchi-deshi of Morihei Ueshiba, whose teaching scroll was in Daito Ryu Aiki-jujutsu. People seriously invovled in traditional arts go and, if they live in another country, they go once a year or even more often. It just depends on whether you want to wear fake gold or if you want to keep real gold in a secret place.

The choice is entirely yours but it does reflect your values and your character.

Best wishes.

David
What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.

If you care a lot about the name "Aiki", and that it must have a certain linage, so be it. I don't, I care about what the art is all about and I found that this art is indeed powerful and useful. It is indeed very effecient, believe me. The scrolls don't have Aiki, people have aiki.

I've seen plenty of Daito Ryu videos with masters doing no touch throws. Does this mean that the linage of Daito Ryu is now dubious or fake?

Also this won't make anyone in KAJ rich like you might be implying, as memberships costs merely 100 kroner/18 dollar a month.

And my value and charachter are allright as they are.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-24-2011 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:22 AM   #289
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
What you say about the name is okay. I can accept it, but I do think you've got way to many martial arts scammers over there, because some of this you'r telling is sounding rather paranoid to me.
Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-24-2011, 10:58 AM   #290
Lorel Latorilla
Location: Osaka
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.

Unless stated otherwise, all wisdom, follies, harshness, malice that may spring up from my writing are attributable only to me.
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Old 01-24-2011, 11:36 AM   #291
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Besides religion, martial arts is the only field where people try verrrrrrrrrrry hard to protect their cherished beliefs.
I don't think that's a true statement. Politics, poker, fishing, cooking, to name a very few more categories with fanatical support.

Mark
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:14 PM   #292
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:25 PM   #293
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
howie, you know that the only good kind of fish are the fish sticks in the frozen food section, right? heh heh heh
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:28 PM   #294
Mark Gibbons
Location: Seattle, WA
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
I actually had you in mind when I wrote that.

Mark
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:05 PM   #295
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Clearly "over here" is not the only place where there is plenty of martial arts scamming and self-delusion.

David
I just ereased a long ramble. We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.

David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline.
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:13 PM   #296
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
...We could discuss this forever and still not reaching agreement. If you (or anyone else) have genuine questions aobut this, I'd be happy to answer as well as I can.
No, you've answered everything quite well enough. If you don't have respect for other people's heritage and reputations, nothing I say will change that. Your group and those you associate with have proven again the old adage that "You can't shame the shameless."

By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
...David, you are welcome to visit KAJ if you ever get to Denmark, but I won't think any less about you, if you decline.
No, thanks. I don't have to go far to find fraudulent aiki-jujutsu and I don't bother to visit them, so I see no need to travel to Denmark to do the same thing.

And far more importantly, I have too many legitimate teachers to visit to spend any time traveling to see those who misrepresent themselves and such ancient arts as aiki-jujutsu.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-24-2011 at 01:21 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:14 PM   #297
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Why'd you have to go and bring fishing into this ???

You're killing me
Yeah, speaking of, when are we going fishing next, Howard?
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:42 PM   #298
Howard Popkin
Dojo: Popkin-Brogna 大東流合気柔術銀柔会
Location: Long Island, NY
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Right now, its all cod, but a little too cold.

I don't go under 40 ish degrees, because I'm to old to be a the rail all day and freeze.

I prefer summer tuna fishing

Who is in ?
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Old 01-24-2011, 01:44 PM   #299
Aikirk
Location: Aahus
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post

By claiming to teach aiki-jujutsu, your group attempts to associate itself with a long line of people who have discovered and developed certain principles of nature and pass them on whole and complete, with honesty and integrity. Your group has shown a fundamental dishonesty and lack of integrity that needs no further questioning.

David
You tie too much importance on the name. People will quickly realize that this is not Aikijujutsu. Partly because of our black dogi and lack of hakama, and partly because we tell them. And it's called "Kyusho Aiki Jutsu" and not "Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu" or anything else. I think people are smart enough to see the difference here. Your argument is equvalent to Facebook claiming copyright on everything spelled with "face" in it.

If we tried to associate ourselves with japanese Aikijujutsu, would our master write about it on the official website?

www.kyushoaikijutsu.com (You can make Google Chrome translate it, and then you can look around. We claim no heritage to Aikijujutsu or other traditional Aiki Jutsu schools. Only that we use Aiki principles.)

I'm sorry I could not let this matter go, when you so severely attack us only based on our name. We claim only linage Systema, HKI and Kyusho Jitsu, and we would have it no other way.

I do respect heritage, but you when judge us on only this I don't get it.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-24-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 01-24-2011, 05:08 PM   #300
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I am not a student of Ushiro Sensei although I have been on the mat with him far more times than I've managed with you guys. I am good friends with both of his personal American students and have discussed what he teaches at length with them. The work contained in his kata, like Sanchin Kata, is straight internal power training.
George, I studied Okinawan karate (Uechi Ryu) on Okinawa (under Seiyu Shinjo) and, like in a few other Okinawan karate arts (including ones that later made it to Japan), Sanchin is the staple "first kata". "Sanchin" kata comes from the San Zhan kata of Fujien White Crane. The kata is essentially a conditioning kata and while it should be done with kokyu/jin and breathwork, most beginners never have a clue about those parts because they're not overtly taught as part of the kata. For all practical purposes, you could think of a Morihiro Saito with some kokyu skills teaching the jo kata as a kokyu device. It only teaches kokyu within it if the kokyu is explicitly shown. This is true of Sanchin kata. Unless you can name some student of Ushiro that has learned kokyu by just learning the choreography of that kata, I think it's pretty improbable that someone is going to learn "straight internal power" via that kata. And trust me, I know tons of people who do Sanchin kata, so I know a fair amount about this. BTW, I hope the fact that this form of 'kokyu' coming via a Chinese martial art doesn't confuse people who are only used to Japanese kokyu.

I think I'd make the overall point that words like "energetics" etc., are interesting and I'd like to hear some specifics, but it's difficult for me to grasp vague terms within otherwise clear debate.

Regards,

Mike Sigman
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