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Old 01-23-2011, 03:26 PM   #251
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

That's the problem...... he who teaches must also have the goods as you keep telling me......

Take care fella's...... I'll keep doing my bullshit and you carry on with yours......

Seems to be a lot of bullshit around here.....

Anyone got a shovel? Need it for my carrots .........

What's coming next I wonder...?
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:31 PM   #252
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Yes, he has studied pressure points with George Dillman in the early 90's.

Kyusho Aiki Jutsu is a system which lends from Kyusho Jitsu, Jack Hogan Karate and Ryabko/Vasiliev-Systema. You may know Evan Pantazi, Jim Corn or Gary Rooks too.
So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:33 PM   #253
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Come on impress me.......

Now we are getting some truth here, as I thought bullshit...

Lets see it in the cage up against a real fighter..... until then bullshit......
Really, Tony?

So you are a cage fighter, yourself?

Because if you're not....then what you're teaching is....what?

Good luck with all that, Tony.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:34 PM   #254
graham christian
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Simon, which parts of these videos would you say are demonstrating Internal Power and what are the underlying principles (e.g. conveying the solidity of the ground into a hit, unbalancing someone on contact, etc.)?
Hi Budd, this caught my attention. Do you believe these clips to be real and understand the different principles being applied? I don't need you to explain I just want to know if you do.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:37 PM   #255
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David
According to Dillman he taught karate to Muhammed Ali and Bruce Lee
so I wouldn't set to much credence to people like that...

He might be behind you and knock you up, sorry, knock you over with his "ki"
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:40 PM   #256
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Simon, I'm not going to endorse what you've shown to be indicative of internal strength as I train it or understand it - I'd also disagree with your remarks regarding cage fighters. But at this point I'm not feeling like a debate on any of this as I think the baseline for discussion has skewed into unrelated and irrelevant tangents.
I'm actually very curious about your (Ark I guess) way of training internal strength as I see things which are done very similar and things which are done very differently. The focus on achieving great power in punches and the way both Ark and KAJ fokus on breathing are definite similarities.

The difference I think, is where we focus on energy manipulation to achieve inner strentgh you guys focus on rewiring the body. I don't think we are achieving excactly the same thing, but I think we can agree, that none of these are external arts?

I stand by what I said about cage fighting. Not that it is in any way useless, but in my opinion that way of training has got it's limitations like everything else.

Yes, the discussion might have strayed from it's original topic, but Systema and KAJ are just as much internal arts as what Ark does, and I thought a bit of info about this type internal power might be interesting to you guys.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:41 PM   #257
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Simon, I'm not going to endorse what you've shown to be indicative of internal strength as I train it or understand it - I'd also disagree with your remarks regarding cage fighters. But at this point I'm not feeling like a debate on any of this as I think the baseline for discussion has skewed into unrelated and irrelevant tangents.
I started just skimming myself a while back.
As I stated coming in to this I can't fault Tony and Henry (or his son, Rik) as it was and is exactly what I thought many years ago. "If I can't use it to fight...I don't wanna know."
Where I disagree with Tony and Henry is you can..I have..
I just can't help but to respect their view. The only suggestion I have made to Tony and Henry is to be more discerning in what they are reading. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I did for years and missed things that are perfect for generating power in MA and MMA..

This Dillman related stuff has been debunked over and over for years......good grief!!
I don't know anyone who has "debunked" what we are discussing, how can you, it's about practical and down to earth hard work. In fact it seems all the naysayers who keep showing up decide to train it.

That experienced people like Tony and Henry have turned a blind to it and those discussing their experiences, is no surprise to me at all.
Oh well.
Dan
.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:44 PM   #258
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
So he has created an "aiki-jutsu" system from various kinds of karate related to George Dillman?

Is there any actual aiki-jutsu in his entire background?

Thanks.

David
Could you point out what you mean by "Aiki-Jutsu"?

Aiki Jutsu is used to describe many different systems. Do you mean Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:49 PM   #259
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Really, Tony?

So you are a cage fighter, yourself?

Because if you're not....then what you're teaching is....what?

Good luck with all that, Tony.

David
Don't be silly David, I was around before cage fighting and would have been to old for it by the time it came in, but I have boxed in and out of the ring..... aikido works to.....

I just happen to know that all the bullshit I have seen so far won't work against a very hard crack to the back of the head or otherwise. Boxers condition there bodies/torso to take punishment, or haven't you noticed? When you get a good crack, whack to the head it will knock you down, It's called a KO, but not if you have the deadly "ki"
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:54 PM   #260
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Tony and Henry - which parts are bullshit? Or are you saying that unless someone who says they do internal strength fights in a cage match, you aren't going to believe it?
It could help.

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Old 01-23-2011, 04:05 PM   #261
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I started just skimming myself a while back.
As I stated coming in to this I can't fault Tony and Henry (or his son, Rik) as it was and is exactly what I thought many years ago. "If I can't use it to fight...I don't wanna know."
Where I disagree with Tony and Henry is you can..I have..
I just can't help but to respect their view. The only suggestion I have made to Tony and Henry is to be more discerning in what they are reading. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I did for years and missed things that are perfect for generating power in MA and MMA..

This Dillman related stuff has been debunked over and over for years......good grief!!
I don't know anyone who has "debunked" what we are discussing, how can you, it's about practical and down to earth hard work. In fact it seems all the naysayers who keep showing up decide to train it.

That experienced people like Tony and Henry have turned a blind to it and those discussing their experiences, is no surprise to me at all.
Oh well.
Dan
.
It's funny how people are only focusing on what they cannot seem to figure out how works, and not being interested in why it seem to work anyway. Clearly there must be a limit to collusive ukes in this world.

I do not doubt that your kind of IP/IS works very well, and I'm not trying to degrade it at all. But when you tell people to have an open mind about your kind of inner strength practice, why are you suddenly rejecting this way of attaining inner strength?

I know this is not at as down to earth as your practice might be, but our seminars are open to everyone.

And may I add that Ryabko/Vasiliev Systema share energy techniques and pressure point activation with KAJ. Yes they do energy "tricks" too. So the legacy of Dillman lives on in Systema who teaches the Russian special forces. I don't think any special forces unit would pick a martial which does not work and is not practical.

Have I overinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-23-2011 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:15 PM   #262
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What's coming next I wonder...?
Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:17 PM   #263
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
It could help.
Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:20 PM   #264
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
It's funny how people are only focusing on what they cannot seem to figure out how works, and not being interested in why it seem to work anyway. Clearly there must be a limit to collusive ukes in this world.

I do not doubt that your kind of IP/IS works very well, and I'm not trying to degrade it at all. But when you tell people to have an open mind about your kind of inner strength practice, why are you suddenly rejecting this way of attaining inner strength?

I know this is not at as down to earth as your practice might be, but our seminars are open to everyone.

And may I add that Ryabko/Vasiliev Systema share energy techniques and pressure point activation with KAJ. Yes they do energy "tricks" too. So the legacy of Dillman lives on in Systema who teaches the Russian special forces. I don't think any special forces unit would pick a martial which does not work and is not practical.

Have I overinterpreted your post, I apologize in advance.
I know too many people, grapplers, weapons guys who have stepped up and ...well..nothing happened,..hell, I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month. I have my own experiences with certain teachers that when faced with someone who actually can use a knife and faces them with one...well...shit DOES happen..but it wasn't quite what they thought was going ...to... happen.
I have nothing good to say, and I don't want to anger you, I am deeply immersed in the practical realities of Murphy's law, so I suggest we drop it okay?
This stuff has no place in this discussion what-so-ever.
Dan

.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:25 PM   #265
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
need I fart on?.....
More?

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Old 01-23-2011, 04:30 PM   #266
Upyu
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....
Lol, if it were that simple...

Seriously, if horse stance were just for training the legs them Asians must've been preeeetty dumb
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:31 PM   #267
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
Could you point out what you mean by "Aiki-Jutsu"?

Aiki Jutsu is used to describe many different systems. Do you mean Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu?
I mean "any" aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu (from traditional sources [in Japan]).

I know that George Dillman is a karate man and I did buy a whole bunch of his pressure-point tapes a long time ago as I have a good bit of karate background, myself. I do respect a lot of what he teaches about pressure points but a lot of his ki manipulation stuff has been soundly debunked (to put it kindly) and I've never heard of his having any association with any kind of aiki-jutsu.

And what I see on the clips you posted bears only passing resemblance to any Japanese aiki-jutsu I've ever seen.

So maybe my question should be "What's the source of the aiki-jutsu designation in your system?"

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:32 PM   #268
DH
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Training internal strength comes from training the external, the two go together. You stand in a horse stance it develops the legs. So does squats slowly ( I do 50 everyday before I go to work..... big deal!!) Sanchin do in goju ryu karate is a form of training isometrics...

Doing ab crunches and holding them at the apex while having a medicine ball bounced upon it creates a strong stomach wall.... need I fart on?.....
While I understand what you are shooting for Tony..thats not really true.
Here is a different example:
Body builders lift and condition themselves. they do so by isolating body parts for development.
Power lifters use whole body power in a different way.
Is it any wonder that they do NOT look the same, nor do they feel and act the same. one case in point; the power lifters are routinely the more powerful.

We are conditioning as well. but not in either of the cases sited above. and we "feel' a certain way as well.
I can't get behind you on squats and mabu leading to IP either. I have yet to meet people who could figure that out and show it on their own.
Sanchin? I know or knew maybe a hundred guys who trained Sanchin; not one could do what I do. Several teachers of Karate now practice it ...shall we say differently...than they ever have before.
YOu are on the right track considering it a type of conditioning, but there is a significant mental/physical component that is unavoidable as well, and yes it can be a bit heady. However, all of it is immersed in very practical and useful things.
"Woo woo" is just as much a swear to me as it is to you! I want none of it.
Good luck in your pursuits
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:40 PM   #269
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I know too many people, grapplers, weapons guys who have stepped up and ...well..nothing happened,..hell, I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month. I have my own experiences with certain teachers that when faced with someone who actually can use a knife and faces them with one...well...shit DOES happen..but it wasn't quite what they thought was going ...to... happen.
I have nothing good to say, and I don't want to anger you, I am deeply immersed in the practical realities of Murphy's law, so I suggest we drop it okay?
This stuff has no place in this discussion what-so-ever.
Dan

.
Well I'm not prepared to make you say that this stuff has no place in this discussion. You said you only skimmed much of this thread, and if you are not considering this being internal power, then how on earth do Vasiliev and Kauhanen get so much force in a one inch punch which looks like nothing? And how come my instructor will take a full speed hits to the stomach with camera tripods and punches from MMA fighters without moving an inch?

Surely there are people who don't know what they are doing, but it is not them I'm talking about.

And don't worry, it is not that easy to anger me. But as you so often have said: If you don't believe it, come and see what the fuss is all about!
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:43 PM   #270
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David
Yes David, so I don't train anymore?, sorry wrong!! I don't fight anymore if I can prevent it.... As yes I do not want to anymore.
But I am realistic and tell the truth. Fat busting is what is, simply that, a balanced diet with regular exercise that can be done anywhere, any place, any time. Do you have a problem with that?
There are a lot of people out there that need this kind of help and it is a simple way to get started without costing an arm or leg. Not everyone wants to do MA or go ballistic doing cardio, Its better to do intensive for short periods......
By the way...... when I did that video I was suffering quite badly with a severe back problem which I had a year previous to, it's caused from constant pounding over the years, as I was still doing ukemi for my students up until then. I had to lay off any hard training which doesn't help, as I'm prone to weight gain if I don't exercise ........Read the material........ You can be assured that it has all gone..... Why? 'Cause am back into training.....
I'm not one of these guys who struts around the dojo and not showing or doing it myself. It sets a bad example...... I don't see many taking ukemi at my age, do you?
I could mention a few, but they know who they are......
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:47 PM   #271
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
While I understand what you are shooting for Tony..thats not really true.
Here is a different example:
Body builders lift and condition themselves. they do so by isolating body parts for development.
Power lifters use whole body power in a different way.
Is it any wonder that they do NOT look the same, nor do they feel and act the same. one case in point; the power lifters are routinely the more powerful.

We are conditioning as well. but not in either of the cases sited above. and we "feel' a certain way as well.
I can't get behind you on squats and mabu leading to IP either. I have yet to meet people who could figure that out and show it on their own.
Sanchin? I know or knew maybe a hundred guys who trained Sanchin; not one could do what I do. Several teachers of Karate now practice it ...shall we say differently...than they ever have before.
YOu are on the right track considering it a type of conditioning, but there is a significant mental/physical component that is unavoidable as well, and yes it can be a bit heady. However, all of it is immersed in very practical and useful things.
"Woo woo" is just as much a swear to me as it is to you! I want none of it.
Good luck in your pursuits
Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:50 PM   #272
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I know a small woman who stumped some of these guys, she was told it didn't work on her because it was that time of the month.
Well, that sounds ridiculous, but it could also have been that she had her tongue in the wrong position in her mouth. Or, possibly, she had one of her big toes off the floor. And each time they tried to affect her, she changed which toe was off the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM_qg...eature=related

Truly, the human mind is an amazing thing.


David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:51 PM   #273
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Put up a video of your training and lets see Dan..... why all the secrecy?
Dan is coming to the UK. And so is Mike Sigman.

Live is far better than tape, bud.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:56 PM   #274
Aikirk
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
I mean "any" aiki-jutsu or aiki-jujutsu (from traditional sources [in Japan]).

I know that George Dillman is a karate man and I did buy a whole bunch of his pressure-point tapes a long time ago as I have a good bit of karate background, myself. I do respect a lot of what he teaches about pressure points but a lot of his ki manipulation stuff has been soundly debunked (to put it kindly) and I've never heard of his having any association with any kind of aiki-jutsu.

And what I see on the clips you posted bears only passing resemblance to any Japanese aiki-jutsu I've ever seen.

So maybe my question should be "What's the source of the aiki-jutsu designation in your system?"

Thanks.

David
Well I dont think they care much about the name(If they did, they would have chosen something more easy to pronounce I guess ).

As kyusho is being done from a chinese medicine point of view, and we are incorporating Systema and Karate in this KAJ, I cannot say it has got any deep roots in japanese Aiki-jutsu.

But Aiki-jutsu is not a trademark, and i think Kyusho Aiki Jutsu sums our school up quite well. Kyusho (Pressure points/one second fight), Aiki (The joining of ki) and Jutsu (Technique). It is simply a way of saying that we do, because our art is pieced together by so many different other arts.

I don't think that Dillman's techniques have ever been busted, but it has been proved that one is able to counter and resist these things if they whish and know they are coming.

Everyone in Kyusho knows this and Dillmann even tells about it openly, but people are only interested in his failure. As I said earlier, this technique is much easier to do if the person is out of balance to start with, and do not know what is coming. Just like Aikido where techniques are much easier to apply if uke is unbalanced and do not know the technique.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:01 PM   #275
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
Well, more of you, I'm sure.

But I'm just wondering, if you think the IS training is such BS, why you keep coming onto these threads and claiming you already do it?

"That's bullshit: I do all that!"

It reminds me of the fellow who goes for a job interview and the employer says, "Very good, then. I'll pay you what you're worth."

And the applicant says, "I'm making more than that now!"

You post a weight-loss ad under your own name alongside a video of yourself clearly way over healthy weight....so I'm thinking that both things you're hawking are baloney.

http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me

You cite your age as a reason for not getting into the heavy stuff anymore, and I figured that was cool. A man in his mid sixties really shouldn't be pushing it too hard. But then I read that you're 57 years old! That's two years over Dan Harden, the BS Internal Power guy, who takes on ring fighters around the world and they pay him to teach them.

You clearly have a real need for respect from everyone with your crossed arms and evil eye (http://www.fatbustingmadesimple.co.uk/about-me) but you show no respect and your response to all the posted videos seems more like someone who's had his ego bruised.

Seems like you've been being dishonest with yourself, Tony and that the truth has bloody hurt you. But calling honest people BS is no way to handle it. It's just more self-deception.

Maybe in addition to the "Non-Aikido Martial Traditions" forum, we need to add one: "Gave Up a Long Time Ago, But Still Want Credit Traditions". Or maybe just "Wanker Traditions."

Best to you, bud.

David
Oh forgot to mention David that I gave up wanking some time ago... it affects your "ki"
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