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Old 01-23-2011, 07:15 AM   #226
Howard Popkin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Hundreds? Not sure I've seen all those guys posting. Maybe 8 to 10… maybe.

Video is almost useless. This stuff has to be felt. No one can tell what's actually going on in a video.

You can't have it both ways!
Mike,

I was referring to the caliber of people I have personally seen at these classes.. Shihan's, Menkyo's, and some just all around serious fighters that have been thrown on their collective behinds by some of the IS people.

Don't take my word for it, go check it out for yourself.

Howard
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:20 AM   #227
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Lorel Latorilla wrote: View Post
Well, if we're talking bujutsu, everything we do is a tactic, even re-wiring our bodies--it's a tactical decision I think .

Awareness of intents is absolutely crucial in bujutsu (which is different from sport fighting). For instance, if you were to go to the Philippines, your awareness has to be sharp; if you were to come in with that "Oh I know some jin skills' or 'I got bodyskills' attitude there and not stay humble and on the watch and not hide your 'intent' or 'ki-ai', you'd find yourself on the nasty end of a sucker shank.

Just a thought.
Yeah, but I'm not quite talking bujutsu, yet . . I'm still differentiating specific components and in this case - rewiring the body so that you ARE different - as opposed to learning to apply a technique or tactic in a new way . . fine line but an important one, I think. So, what I'm trying to tease out around the "energetics" work is whether it's something you learn to do or something you become after correct training . . (some systems have these all bundled together so that you can't break them apart - but because enough people are calling out the "energetics" work as its own thing - I'm thinking it merits examination).
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Old 01-23-2011, 09:24 AM   #228
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote: View Post
Shihan's, Menkyo's, and some just all around serious fighters that have been thrown on their collective behinds by some of the IS people.
It's pretty hard to really learn internal strength and it's not some simple thing like waza that can easily be defined and added to someone's "already excellent Aikido" like a merit badge. I'm really curious what learning internal strength at the beginning stages, which most people are at, has to do with being thrown on one's behind. I really get the feeling that a lot of people are mixing up technique with internal strength. Note that even Tohei gave different ranking in internal strength and technique... there is a difference between the two.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-23-2011, 10:06 AM   #229
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Michael Varin wrote: View Post
Video is almost useless. This stuff has to be felt. No one can tell what's actually going on in a video.

You can't have it both ways!
It doesn't go both ways. You can't see how good someone is in video, but you can pretty well see if they're bad.

Not that Tony is showing "bad" aikido, but you can see that it's pretty much standard aikido and that it's not employing anything like what Dan and Ark do. And, of course, Howard has tremendous experience in the Roppokai, so he's seen a lot of people and has a pretty good ground to look from.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 01-23-2011, 11:29 AM   #230
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote:
Howard Popkin wrote:
Shihan's, Menkyo's, and some just all around serious fighters that have been thrown on their collective behinds by some of the IS people.
It's pretty hard to really learn internal strength and it's not some simple thing like waza that can easily be defined and added to someone's "already excellent Aikido" like a merit badge. I'm really curious what learning internal strength at the beginning stages, which most people are at, has to do with being thrown on one's behind. I really get the feeling that a lot of people are mixing up technique with internal strength. Note that even Tohei gave different ranking in internal strength and technique... there is a difference between the two.
2 cents.
Mike Sigman
You think that's a difference that only you can see? You challenge people to get out and test and then challenge the credibility of those that have.
You talk to people as if they cannot tell the difference between external and internal or be able to separate IP from waza particularly those in an art that routinely separates aiki from waza, all while telling people on the internet, IHTBF, obviously because IT CAN BE FELT AS DIFFERENT
All while turning around and telling those same people that even then they can't tell the difference between what they felt and what is real IP. Making a tacit argument that YOU and well...God only knows who else.....can.
all while the ICMA themselves talk endlessly about the internal and external being combined in harmony and proved through a blending of internally driven external testing,
All while you challenge all information and offer nothing but baby steps in return, while alluding to you knowing more, while publicly stating you will not offer it as people need to "figure it out for themselves"
All while stating the Japanese arts had no IP then changing your own mind and stating there was more there than you thought
All while certain of us lowly Japanese artists have now met and crossed hands with grand masters of those internal arts...who suck just a bad as many of the teachers being discussed here. And met other grand masters who had genuine power but who could not simply overcome us dumb Japanese artists.
All while you admitted that certain ICMA grandmaster level guys handed you your ass...through...uhm...IP...in use.
We are all on a journey and learning, killing the messengers and killing the message is a disservice to the debate. I keep hoping for better.
Dan

Last edited by DH : 01-23-2011 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:11 PM   #231
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Whatever..... sensei
Tony, I don't list myself as "Sensei" anywhere--but I see that you do on your website...

Rather, just think of me as your "kung fu brother," trying to give you a hand.

As Ushiro Sensei said, "what you know is the enemy of learning."

Good luck.

David

Last edited by David Orange : 01-23-2011 at 12:14 PM.

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:33 PM   #232
Howard Popkin
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Well, I have seen many waza.....
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:52 PM   #233
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
As Ushiro Sensei said, "what you know is the enemy of learning."
To get good at something -- anything -- you first have to be willing to be bad at it. The more experience you have, the bigger the risk that is, whether you're Tiger Woods retooling his golf swing, or an aikido instructor who pays his bills (or not) based on his ability to show stuff on the mat. I can totally see why someone would be unwilling to take that risk. I just object when they spend their time throwing rocks at people who do.

Katherine
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Old 01-23-2011, 12:58 PM   #234
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Agreed - you have to be "okay" with admitting that you suck at a potentially important part of martial arts practice, that's step one - then you can actually spend the time doing the work to change that (and it takes time and a lot of work, no two ways around that).
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:00 PM   #235
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Well lets see some your stuff then lads...... I'm really interested.....
Put it up on video and lets see it......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-23-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:37 PM   #236
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Hi Tony, I don't do much in the way of vids around "applications" right now as my big focus has been solo conditioning and then periodically working out at the MMA gym (in which case, it doesn't "look" much different from what others are doing - and I'm intentionally staying under the radar there and using it as a lab).

I don't know that anyone's bothered filming "classical aikido with IS, yet", but here's a vid of Minorou Akuzawa (Ark) that I found that has some reasonable demo stuff in terms of how basic power can be delivered through a conditioned body. Take a look. Then talk to some of the people who have felt him in person.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpP_HmoJoHg&NR=1
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:41 PM   #237
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Well lets see some your stuff then lads...... I'm really interested.....
Put it up on video and lets see it......
It wouldn't help you to see anyone who's "learning" this internal power. You might think you see something in it that you can do.

What you need to see is someone who's highly developed in it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYlM...8099C&index=65

In this one, watch carefully at 0:54!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJVQ...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfo8b...eature=related

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:49 PM   #238
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Here's Chen Bing showing some basic applications of power releases in a grappling context at an MMA gym:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIc5NIfrnJs
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:21 PM   #239
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Re: Training Internal Strength

If you are interested in a different approach to IS/IP than Akuzawa:

Tony Kauhanen, the master of Kyusho Aiki Jutsu, is showing the techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKsPr...x=5&playnext=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npdxk...2492B2&index=3
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:48 PM   #240
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
If you are interested in a different approach to IS/IP than Akuzawa:

Tony Kauhanen, the master of Kyusho Aiki Jutsu, is showing the techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKsPr...x=5&playnext=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npdxk...2492B2&index=3
Simon, which parts of these videos would you say are demonstrating Internal Power and what are the underlying principles (e.g. conveying the solidity of the ground into a hit, unbalancing someone on contact, etc.)?
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:15 PM   #241
David Orange
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
If you are interested in a different approach to IS/IP than Akuzawa:

Tony Kauhanen, the master of Kyusho Aiki Jutsu, is showing the techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKsPr...x=5&playnext=2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npdxk...2492B2&index=3
Is he associated with George Dillman?

Thanks.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.esotericorange.com
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:18 PM   #242
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Simon, which parts of these videos would you say are demonstrating Internal Power and what are the underlying principles (e.g. conveying the solidity of the ground into a hit, unbalancing someone on contact, etc.)?
I will point them out then. What is done, is very subtle and purely internal. It can be difficult to see, but I will try to show you the most "Aiki"-like techniques. He also uses energy transmission and softness to activate pressure points and that's why the uke often look likes he's throwing himself to the mat. Trying to apply the same pressure points with ordinary force will not do anything close to this.

So really he's using it all the time, but the most obvious places are:

First video (kauhanen is actually not in this video, it is his students showing the techniques.)
0.50 - 1.32: This is very advanced, but as far as I understand, he uses a combinationen of aiki and energy-draining techniques.

Second video
0.04 - 0.05, 0.16 - 0.19 and 0.48 - 0.52
He is using energy to put great power into his punch. It looks like nothing, but will go very deep.

0.59 - 1.02
Energy manipulation. Don't ask me how he does it, but it's definitely internal and in every way insanely high level. It's a view of what can be done, more than a way to train or defend yourself.

This is certainly a different way to percieve internal power than fx Ark does it.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:30 PM   #243
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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David Orange wrote: View Post
Is he associated with George Dillman?

Thanks.

David
Yes, he has studied pressure points with George Dillman in the early 90's.

Kyusho Aiki Jutsu is a system which lends from Kyusho Jitsu, Jack Hogan Karate and Ryabko/Vasiliev-Systema. You may know Evan Pantazi, Jim Corn or Gary Rooks too.

And yes I know some people view George Dillman as a fraud, but as I said these no touch energy techniques are statement performances and its very difficult to perform on people who are standing in balance and actively resisting the techniques. Just like aikido waza where uke must actively allow nage to lead his/her energy and not block the technique by standing still and turning nages wrist purple.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:40 PM   #244
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Come on impress me.......

Now we are getting some truth here, as I thought bullshit...

Lets see it in the cage up against a real fighter..... until then bullshit......

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-23-2011 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:54 PM   #245
Hellis
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Come on impress me.......

Now we are getting some truth here, as I thought bullshit...

Lets see it in the cage up against a real fighter..... until then bullshit......
Would you care to repeat that !!!!! Rik asked me to add

Henry Ellis
http://aikido-controversy.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:01 PM   #246
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Tony and Henry - which parts are bullshit? Or are you saying that unless someone who says they do internal strength fights in a cage match, you aren't going to believe it?
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:08 PM   #247
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Tony and Henry - which parts are bullshit? Or are you saying that unless someone who says they do internal strength fights in a cage match, you aren't going to believe it?
All of it...... you got it......
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:11 PM   #248
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Come on impress me.......

Now we are getting some truth here, as I thought bullshit...

Lets see it in the cage up against a real fighter..... until then bullshit......
To begin with:

I respect your skills and experince. Judging from your video, your Aikido techniques look very solid.

Kyusho Aiki Jutsu is not a sport. MMA is a sport, and if i wanted to fight in a cage, MMA would be fitting.

But in real life self defense the training must be different. MMA does not teach you knife defense or strategy in multiple opponents encounter. Kyusho Aiki Jutsu does this. MMA does not prepare you for the no-rules competition called the real world.

The dynamics in a real world assault are different from a staged competition. Both my instructors have done competition karate earlier and knows. People often comes running at you, holding a knife to your throat and generally attacks in a much more unpredictable way than fighters in a cage do.

When having reached shodan or a level where you know what you do, we train full speed encounters. Primarily from multiple opponents attack. But not for long as it is not called "one-second fight" for nothing.

Remember that the videos are demonstrations of some of the things this art can do, and not purely self defense. Things have to be slow so people can see what is being done. Believe me, these techniques are lightning fast and powerful in full speed.

Last edited by Aikirk : 01-23-2011 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:13 PM   #249
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
All of it...... you got it......
Okay, I'm done. At this point you are just sitting in a corner with your hands over your ears going "LALALALALALALALALALALALALA" ..
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:20 PM   #250
Budd
 
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Re: Training Internal Strength

Quote:
Simon Kirk Sørensen wrote: View Post
To begin with:

I respect your skills and experince. Judging from your video, your Aikido techniques look very solid.

Kyusho Aiki Jutsu is not a sport. MMA is a sport, and if i wanted to fight in a cage, MMA would be fitting.

But in real life self defense the training must be different. MMA does not teach you knife defense or strategy in multiple opponents encounter. Kyusho Aiki Jutsu does this. MMA does not prepare you for the no-rules competition called the real world.

The dynamics in a real world assault are different from a staged competition. Both my instructors have done competition karate earlier and knows. People often comes running at you, holding a knife to your throat and generally attacks in a much more unpredictable way than fighters in a cage do.

When having reached shodan or a level where you know what you do, we train full speed encounters. Primarily from multiple opponents attack. But not for long as it is not called "one-second fight" for nothing.

Remember that the videos are demonstrations of some of the things this art can do, and not purely self defense. Things have to be slow so people can see what is being done. Believe me, these techniques are lightning fast and powerful in full speed.
Simon, I'm not going to endorse what you've shown to be indicative of internal strength as I train it or understand it - I'd also disagree with your remarks regarding cage fighters. But at this point I'm not feeling like a debate on any of this as I think the baseline for discussion has skewed into unrelated and irrelevant tangents.
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