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Old 05-22-2002, 09:04 AM   #26
Carl Simard
Location: Quebec City
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Re: Re: Hakama or no hakama.

Quote:
Originally posted by andrew

I gather that the strict policy stopped in the postwar period in Japan because there simply happened to be a cloth shortage. People were turning up to classes in expensive silk hakama that had belonged to their Grandfathers and destroying the knees.

andrew
I heard a similar story. For what I've been told, before war, everybody was wearing the hakama. It was the normal training suite. However, after the war, the japan was in a bad economic state and many people simply couldn't afford the luxury to buy an hakama. So, O'sensei decided that the hakama may only be worn at yudansha level if people couldn't afford one sooner. He simply didn't want to see promising aikidokas stop training simply because they couldn't buy an hakama... Don't know how much of that is true but it certainly make some sense...

From that, it somewhat degenerated in an hakama=yudansha thing... However, this equation isn't true in many organisation or dojo. In my dojo, and all other dojos in town, people are allowed to wear hakama from the 3rd kyu if they wish too. But there's no obligation to wear one...

Last edited by Carl Simard : 05-22-2002 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:44 PM   #27
faramos
Dojo: University of Chicago Aikido Club
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Ai symbol Aiki spirit and Hakama

Fellow Aikiweb Members,

The story that we're refering to can actually be found online in several different places. This story can be found at the link below. In it the reference we are able to understand that the reason for wearing a hakama dealt with the situation of the times, and that in order to maintain the practice of aikido to be open to all, there needed to be a choice made, between ego and humility. On the mat I seriously doubt anyone wearing a hakama at the time felt more able-bodied than others without hakama. This was because of course other martial arts did not wear the garment and in that the hakamaless would have exceled at other martial forms to which Aikidoka with hakama's had no training. The point being that no matter what we wear, our aikido training does not depend on colored belts, perfect hakama folds, or expensive weapons. It depends on our willingness to train in any outfit. To be true to the Aiki spirit and to try our best in all situations.

I myself wear a hakama everytime I step on the mat. Although I am not a shodan, because I have been asked to do so. When I barely began aikido it was the first thing I noticed on senior students... and I wanted one. For a year I attempted to save up enough money to get one. The day it came was also the day of The Incident. Suddenly I felt like I had no right to wear one. The next day I went to class and my instructor, who was from New York, had only me and a friend to train with. As we trained I told myself this was where I should be. The next day my sensei ask me "Where's your new hakama?" I explained to him how I though only shodan and seniors should wear one. To which he replied: "You came yesterday for class and you trained hard. That is why hakama's are worn. A hakama is only a reminder to yourself that no matter the situation, if you train dilligently, you will succeed. And in the end, hakama or not, those who try their best everyday need no reminders."

So I guess the moral of both points in that a hakama is just a piece of clothing, like shoes and shirts. To own one is fine although we may never wear it until later on in training. But in the end, the reason people really wear them is as a reminder of their training; same as a colored belt, same as a work suit. And even thouh ego may develop in some, it is the spirit of Aikido which take presidence in Aikidoka that far outweighs any outfit or clothing.

Best to All In Training,
Frank


In every man there is something wherein I may learn of him, and in that I am his pupil.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:46 PM   #28
faramos
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I almost forgot the URL story:

http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/hakama
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Old 05-22-2002, 07:49 PM   #29
batemanb
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR

Great story - can you give us the name of your neighbour?
Just had a message back, the 7th Dan in question was Matsunawa san ("), unfortunately, he no longer trains.

I`ll be interested if you have any info on him.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:32 PM   #30
Bronson
 
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Quote:
Also, when Sensei is showing nuances of foot position, he hooks the hem in his belt
The following was taken from the Bugei Trading Co. online catalog. These guys seem to be pretty hardcore when it comes to samurai history.

"Hakama are the trousers that the samurai wore. They were the normal wear and not designed to hide the feet or give the illusion of floating. In fact the hakama was tucked up through the belt when confrontation was imminent, just as the sleeves of the kimono were tied back with a tasuki. There were many types and syles that came in numerous colors and designs. The samurai were fond of vertical stripes as well as other patterened designs..."

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:52 PM   #31
Erik
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronson
"Hakama are the trousers that the samurai wore. They were the normal wear and not designed to hide the feet or give the illusion of floating. In fact the hakama was tucked up through the belt when confrontation was imminent, just as the sleeves of the kimono were tied back with a tasuki. There were many types and syles that came in numerous colors and designs. The samurai were fond of vertical stripes as well as other patterened designs..."
Naturally we get all worked up about who and what should wear trousers. And woe unto anyone suggesting we practice in street clothes for the end of civilization surely approaches.

On safety and the hakama. Once during a breakfall my foot got caught in the hakama. I did a mid air split, my first and only one ever. I didn't get on the mat for awhile after that. Anyways, other than tripping I don't find much restriction of movement. I can still kick and move although since I don't kick terribly well that may not be saying much.

Last edited by Erik : 05-23-2002 at 03:38 AM.
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Old 05-22-2002, 10:55 PM   #32
guest1234
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Re: Aiki spirit and Hakama

Quote:
Originally posted by faramos
Fellow Aikiweb Members,

The story that we're refering to can actually be found online in several different places. This story can be found at the link below. In it the reference we are able to understand that the reason for wearing a hakama dealt with the situation of the times, and that in order to maintain the practice of aikido to be open to all, there needed to be a choice made, between ego and humility. On the mat I seriously doubt anyone wearing a hakama at the time felt more able-bodied than others without hakama. This was because of course other martial arts did not wear the garment and in that the hakamaless would have exceled at other martial forms to which Aikidoka with hakama's had no training.
<snip>
I think other martial arts did (do) wear hakama---iaido, kyudo, kendo all come immediately to mind, I'm sure there are others...
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:15 PM   #33
Anne
Dojo: Kiel University/VfL Fosite Helgoland
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costs & color of hakamas

If you don't want to buy a hakama, you can easily sew them yourself. I already posted my pattern here (search for "home made hakama").It's not perfect (I'm still working on a koshiita solution) but works. They are easier made than you might think. And, you can choose color and pattern...I just made one with two different shades of blue (navy/turquoise) and I'm planning on a red/black and a dark violet one...

Anne

"You have to do difficult things to grow." (Shoji Nishio Sensei)
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:04 PM   #34
Bronson
 
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Round earth publishing also sells hakama (and other clothing) patterns. You can even get a pattern for making a hakama for a teddy bear if you want to practice. They also have a hakama fitting guide which I believe will help you take an exisiting hakama that doesn't fit quite right and fix it.

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:50 PM   #35
Anne
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Smile

There are only two critical measures anyway: hip size (take 4x for all the pleats) and waist-to-ankle lenght. Alternatively you can measure the leg perimeter of a friend's hakama that fits you.

Anne

Last edited by Anne : 05-23-2002 at 02:53 PM.

"You have to do difficult things to grow." (Shoji Nishio Sensei)
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Old 06-01-2002, 04:52 AM   #36
auskodo
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I originally wrote the bulk of this message for the 'Bra' thread but much of it is relevent to the 'Hakama' thread as well.

The X-over top is called a kieko hanten, there are many forms of hanten, fishermen even wear a string one thats prevents water logging! it's not nessearily underwear, more a casual jacket.

Whe white pants are called Zubon, they are not underwear either, more peasants or children's play clothes. Here a century on from Kano's inintial teaching of Judo we forget that he expected the adults to wear hakama, zubon came later, there is some influence from the Shotokan and his friend Funikoshi on this.

Traditionaly under any clothing mawashi is worn literally a white cotton loin cloth. In Japan die-hards still wear these, even business men I'm told still go in for them. Yes it's an image!

As to women's clothing, the earliest photo's of Ueshiba's, Funokoshi's and Kano's female Japanese students show them in printed dress Kimono of the informal type. Usually of 2 or three layers. If we look at prints from the Mieji and Yedo periods showing women in training they are usualy going as a girlfriend of mine used to call it 'free range'. But thier training wasn't mixed.

Women wearing the same clothing as men in training i.e; Hanten, obi, and hakama or zubon came after WW2, it reflects more uni-sex training taking place, as wel as a desire for uniformity with male classes at the kodokan, shobukan and Shodokan as well as others. As well as a change in social attitudes.

Curiously untill the occupation public baths were unisex, apparently the these dissapeared in the 60's. I think there are only three traditional uni-sex baths in the whole of Japan today.

As a note many large Budo organizations stipulate in thier regulations that women should wear thier hakama longer and higher with the rim just under the bust line, and a (pretty) bow knot instead of a square knot.

The Hakama worn for training is called Joba Hakama, lit.'horse pants' they are probably a mutation of equestian Jodpers and some chinese folk dress. Thier apearnace in Japanese art ruffly matches the importation of Chinese culture during the Teisho reforms about 650ce. this matches with the social changes going on as the result of this urbanization.

I'm a Zen monk, I often wear hakama in place of my koromo when teaching informally and people still 'get' that i'm a monk, so thier is a spiritual dimension to hakama that was probably not lost on the samurai, but also they were probably valued visualy. Traditional Japanese Fashion favours a cucumber look wich is lost when wearing zubon.

basiclly you could go on making connections on fashion, history, spiritual, and functional premises forever. Does it matter?

No.



Gassho
Auskodo
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Old 06-01-2002, 08:38 AM   #37
Chris Li
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by auskodo
The X-over top is called a kieko hanten, there are many forms of hanten, fishermen even wear a string one thats prevents water logging! it's not nessearily underwear, more a casual jacket.
"Keiko" of course, is "practice", "hanten" can really be any short coat or coat like garment.

Quote:
Whe white pants are called Zubon, they are not underwear either, more peasants or children's play clothes. Here a century on from Kano's inintial teaching of Judo we forget that he expected the adults to wear hakama, zubon came later, there is some influence from the Shotokan and his friend Funikoshi on this.
Any pair of pants (trousers) would be called "zubon". Actually the word was borrowed from French.

Quote:
Traditionaly under any clothing mawashi is worn literally a white cotton loin cloth. In Japan die-hards still wear these, even business men I'm told still go in for them. Yes it's an image!
I suppose that you can find anything if you look hard enough . Still I would be very surprised to find a businessman (or anyone outside of certain special groups like sumo wrestlers) wearing a mawashi.

Quote:
Women wearing the same clothing as men in training i.e; Hanten, obi, and hakama or zubon came after WW2, it reflects more uni-sex training taking place, as wel as a desire for uniformity with male classes at the kodokan, shobukan and Shodokan as well as others. As well as a change in social attitudes.
According to Takako Kunigoshi women at the pre-war Kobukan war the same thing that the men did - keikogi and hakama.

Best,

Chris

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Old 06-03-2002, 03:58 PM   #38
JPT
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Pulling the bluebelt's legs.

At our club people tend to wear them from brownbelt. They keep the centre firm & tight and add something to the ukemi's (air breaks)..........But best of all they give us an excuse not to help putting the mats away at the end of the class, because of all that folding!!!! Hahaha
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Old 06-03-2002, 09:16 PM   #39
Bogeyman
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In our system students can wear hakamas after becoming 2nd kyu which seems to work out nice for us. We are affiliated with a university so the cost is an issue but it also seems like the students are ready to wear a hakama at that point. The adjustment period is very brief generally is there is an adjustment period at all. I really am not sure why that is but it works for us. Folding the hakama also helps teach patience at a time that students need to focus on that as they start approaching shodan.
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Old 06-13-2002, 10:39 AM   #40
Ecosamurai
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeterR
Isn't it though - faced with a real knife I would be way more careful but the idea is to provide impetus for strong commited attacks. Still with Shodokan experience I can with confidence role my eyes when certain people talk about knife take aways. It's not easy.
Hi Peter

Despite my reservations concerning shiai (sp?) in Aikido I do agree with you in some respects about knife attacks.
At the 2001 Aikido-l european seminar we did some work on that in the shodokan session. Lots of fun, reminded me a lot of what we do in my own dojo, despite the fact that we are nothing to do with Tomiki.
I do have to say that everything becomes especially clear when working with a real knife, not just a practise weapon.

So I can sympathise with your point above, but I'm still not sure how a hakama could possibly be a problem when dealing with knife attacks? Could you elaborate on that one?

Mike Haft

"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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Old 06-13-2002, 07:57 PM   #41
PeterR
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ecosamurai
So I can sympathise with your point above, but I'm still not sure how a hakama could possibly be a problem when dealing with knife attacks? Could you elaborate on that one?
Don't look at me Mike - I was just responding to someone elses comment in the thread. Thought that was clear.

Shodokan randori (not just shiai) is incrediably vigorous. Tanto or toshu randori its the same danger.

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido
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