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Old 05-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #76
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
Exactly.

Seeing as you like stories so much: You are engaged in a fight. You are a skilled boxer, your opponent is not. He makes a small hand movement, which has no boxing equivalent, and is not a strike or feint. You are looking into his eyes. He strikes at you, and you avoid it easily, because you are a skilled boxer. Except that small hand movement was him drawing a knife. Had it been a punch, you would have dodged it, but with the extra reach afforded by the blade, you have now been stabbed.

You are a skilled boxer. Your opponent squares up to you. His friend comes in beside you and smashes you in the back of the legs with a stool. Had you been using your peripheral vision, instead of looking into his eyes, you would have spotted it.

See how easy it is to tell meaningless stories that apparently support your position but prove nothing?

All I see is assumption after assumption. Suppose I am competent, and I beat him half dead? If you pit two men against each other, with all factors equal, then the chance of either of them winning is 50%. Suppose the person intervening bigger, stronger, faster, experienced, and well-trained. Why then does this criminal still have a magical edge over him?

Did you know that the mortality rate for boxing is lower than for horse racing? Robert Cantu, 1995, Boxing and Medicine. So I'd better not mess with any jockeys, right? Whatever people do, people die doing it. Proves nothing.

You have experience with boxing. Fair enough. You believe this qualifies you to talk about fighting outside of boxing. It does not. Boxing is a sport. It is as far removed from actual fighting as any other sport. I have seen boxers try to box in a fight and get hammered. They either failed to realise the constraints of the sport were no longer there, or did realise it but did not adapt. So when someone did something that had no equivalent in boxing, they were left without the ability to respond.

Exactly, and it was a man defending himself who did this. Most strange, when you accord the attacker in such a situation the overwhelming favourite to win. He did the right thing, defended himself, and his attacker was seriously hurt.

It's not about chivalry. It's about doing the right thing. Morals, principles. If I was a Christian I could point to the Good Samaritan. But that's unfashionable. Better, in fact, to disregard whatever happens to any of your fellow human beings. Never, ever, try to help them. No matter how safe it appears, it is not.

Make as many posts as you want, with as many words as you want, with as many of those words bolded as you want, it does not endow you with knowledge or authority about this subject. You have no proof to back up any of your assertions.
Sir, I understand that you may have a problem with me (Sigmund Freud would say you love me lol), but let me assure you that my posts were not meant to reply to you.

But I thank you because you have offered to me the opportunity to clarify how eyes matter in a fight and how much they may tell to a seasoned fighter - I never managed before to explain better this eye thing, and I feel in this thread, for the first time, I have been able to put it in words that are finally clearer (at least as far as my limited dialectical abilities can go, particularly with English).

For me, your posts have been an opportunity to clarify better a point that may be useful to others. To a wider audience, not to you specifically.

Yet I see you insist in turning it personal. Why? Do I know you? Have I done something to you?

I see that you may have reasons to disqualify any contribution I make, in their totality and in the most unflinching terms, with an obstinacy and an obduracy that any persons savvy in fighting would find odd (whilst so many could confirm what i said make a lot of sense...), but I am fine with that. There is no way to persuade a person who has picked a personal issue out of a generalized thread: I can deal with techincal aspects, and explain myself better as much as I can, but I cannot deal with pride or gratuitous personal antipathy.

The street fights we are speaking of, are street fights where your opponent want to beat you mostly bare handed - this is still very classical and happens frequently - instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYhYVAm-x4Y
How long would you survive aginst a cop like that, Sir?
I know perfectly how much I would - but you? Are you expert enough to know it beforehand? In fact, experience can reveal to you these things.

And btw in that video who is the guy who is taking it?
The one who waches into the face (well, where his foe's face should have been...) as I repeatedly solicited, or the one who looks down, actually exactly down there where the punches of the cop would start so that, as you (you like it personal right? lol )suggested earlier, one could "see" when they arrive........ and in fact he saw them arriving, and as I predicted, 100% of them landed on his face nonetheless

But of course one can defeat the whole argument in a more consistent manner: in a real situation a guy may take out not a knife (as you suggest) but a gun.

So, what are we arguing about? Against a gun, or a pack of guys with baseball mats, there is no boxing and no aikido that can make you survive - you're doomed. And this whole thread is useless against a pistol or a pack.

However, by the way - you think of guys extracting a knife: you live in a beautiful word Sir - many bad gusy prefer using cutters like this: better to carry, much more dangerous, better hidden, if found by cops can be at least said it was not meant as a weapon, and far more insidious because you may conceal it in a punch.
Have you ever seen what they can do with one of those? I have.

If one produces the examples you think of, there is no boxing my friend, no aikido and indeed no martial art and no "periphereal vision" that will help you.
However, when you wacth your opponent in the eye you do have periphereal vision.
You really seem to know nothing Sir. It's not a fault, but you're passing over sound advice that, with such lack of experience, you should treasure instead...

However, in a great deal of other situations, having the experience that I mention namely the one that makes you know all the given combinations and how they characteristically articulate and travel, plus the ability to watch in the eyes your opponent and understand his emotional condition in the finest degrees, makes a difference that is monumental.
Only your obvious lack of experience makes you believe and argue that such experience would make no difference in many street situations.

Between having it and having it not (as you have it not, Sir) there is an enormous difference - and without having that experience, Sir, you should not venture into fights - particularly not into street fights.
It is, indeed, regrettable that with so little cognitions about fighting, you feel entitled to step into a street fight in order "to help" the others.

But honestly, Sir: I cannot truly relate with a person who is totally incompetent. You have never been in a boxing match, you have never been in a MMA match, and yet you claim to be equipped to judge in the most derogatory terms what those who (unlike you) have been there have to say (as a general contribution to the audience).

It seems that since you have beaten a couple of drunkards you feel like a tough guy, the hero of the neighbuorhood, and believe you can beat guys safely and intervene in street fights. Please Sir, consider never intervening in a street situation - the chances that you have of eventually enriching our statistics of tragic street fights are very high.

Also the unconsiderate way you deal with the coma of the others by labeling such tragic results as something that can be described as "he did the right thing (...) defended himself, and his attacker was seriously hurt" reveals that you're just another irresponsible guy looking for cheap troubles - and the fact you can qualify the coma of a person like the "right thing" and in the same picture think of yourelf as a (I quote) "the good Samaritan" tells a lot about how truly dangerous you can be.

For a person like you, doing the (I quote) "right thing" that you mention (for yourself and for the others), tantamount to this: stay at home, Sir.

The best piece of advice you ever got.

You may think it is given out of anthipaty but it is not so, Sir.
Indeed I am genuinely very concerned for your safety, and for that of the others that you may endanger with your fantasized ideas.

Do the real right thing Sir: stay at home. You're a dangerous man - and yes in this you were right and you may find comfort, you're dangerous indeed. Actually, you are into the kind that is the most dangerous of all kinds.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:20 PM   #77
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Henry Sim wrote: View Post

NOTHING AND NO WORDS can replace experience;
yes Sir, you have got the whole point of it, indeed.
Only, at times one needs to elaborate to make the simplest thing understood - and at times no elaboration seems ever enough as we see.

You have got it, Sir. You have understood all that it needs to be understood to fight well, if you understood that.
Experience is all. Lots of it.

You may enjoy a bit of entertainment then, you earned it and you may take it with humour too (the fact is, movies are fictional, however screenwriters normally tap on guys with actual knowledge for their screenplays...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfeK5xvZcDo

True, street fights can be unpredictable - one more reason not to go there if you cannot say "500" - at least MMA or boxing matches lol

ps also note: in the screenplay the guy does not intervene because a man slapped a lady - the more you know how to fight, the less you feel such urges. In real life, not just in movies. It's ironic how a movie, which is fictional, has touched so many real points - evidenty they had good martial arts counselors for the screenplay....

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 05-17-2012 at 04:27 PM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:59 PM   #78
Benjamin Green
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 43
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
The street fights we are speaking of, are street fights where your opponent want to beat you mostly bare handed - this is still very classical and happens frequently - instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYhYVAm-x4Y
How long would you survive aginst a cop like that, Sir?
I know perfectly how much I would - but you? Are you expert enough to know it beforehand? In fact, experience can reveal to you these things.
I don't know about the other guy, but I'd last nigh on forever. He's flailing all over the place, most of it's upper body movement; it's a mess. Even when the black guy was wide open the white guy couldn't land a telling hit on him.

Dealing with that sort of person's largely a matter of getting your guard up and driving right through the middle of it till you're in a position to take him down. Black guy's problem was he was trying to stand there and box with him - and they were both really bad boxers. The cop was, admittedly, better, but he wasn't much better.

Edit: Well, security guard. He's not a cop.

Last edited by Benjamin Green : 05-18-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:13 AM   #79
Belt_Up
Dojo: Dynamic Aikido Nocquet
Location: Hartlepool
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Yet I see you insist in turning it personal. Why? Do I know you? Have I done something to you?
You insist on turning it personal, claiming you know what I do not...when you don't know me. You don't know the first thing about me, yet you have experiences I, apparently, do not. You claim specialist knowledge about street fights, because you boxed.

Quote:
I see that you may have reasons to disqualify any contribution I make,
Because you have no evidence for any of your assertions. They're just based on piles and piles of assumptions. Moreover, you're spreading your assertions as unassailable truths, uncaring of the damage you will cause.

Quote:
How long would you survive aginst a cop like that, Sir?
It looks to me that the security guard is going to wear himself out, so I'd say: quite a while.

Quote:
Are you expert enough to know it beforehand?
How can you possibly know how long a fight will last beforehand? Fantasy.

Quote:
But of course one can defeat the whole argument in a more consistent manner: in a real situation a guy may take out not a knife (as you suggest) but a gun.
Here again you delve into fantasy. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill and http://www.usadojo.com/articles/knife-vs-gun.htm and many other articles by many other people whereby a knife is far more dangerous than a gun at close range.

Quote:
Have you ever seen what they can do with one of those? I have.
This, ladies and gents, is a child's textbook ad hominem. It reads, writ large: "I have experience, you do not. What I have to say is right, what you have to say is wrong."

Quote:
You really seem to know nothing Sir.
Then you have jumped to yet another conclusion using what you know about me (nothing).

Quote:
Only your obvious lack of experience makes you believe and argue that such experience would make no difference in many street situations.
My obvious lack of boxing experience disqualifies me. Right. Despite the fact we're not talking about boxing. Okay.

Quote:
But honestly, Sir: I cannot truly relate with a person who is totally incompetent.
At boxing, absolutely.

Quote:
It seems that since you have beaten a couple of drunkards you feel like a tough guy, the hero of the neighbuorhood, and believe you can beat guys safely and intervene in street fights.
Three assumptions, and not a shred of proof. You don't know me, and the fact that you pretend to is baffling. Keep throwing mud though, no doubt some will stick. Eventually. I could list things I've done and experiences I've had, but what good would it do? No doubt they simply don't stack up beside yours. There's no way I could be more experienced than you, after all, it's simply not possible.

Quote:
the fact you can qualify the coma of a person like the "right thing"
Defending himself was the right thing to do. The result depends upon your viewpoint, but I find it hard to believe anyone honestly thinks you should merely let yourself be attacked.

Quote:
Please Sir, consider never intervening in a street situation
If you had ever actually been there in that situation, you'd know that's exactly what you do, every time. Every single time, there is the strong urge to simply walk away, forget about whatever is happening and whoever it is happening to, to not get involved, to not risk anything. No doubt you act on it, every single time. I've acted on it myself, but I refuse to act on it every time because that is merely the flipside of the foolhardy who intervene every time. The solution to an array of individual problems is not to jump between extremes, but to tailor your solution to each problem.

Quote:
and in the same picture think of yourelf as a (I quote) "the good Samaritan"
And my point goes clear over your head. I do not think of myself as a Good Samaritan. Though I do enjoy you grasping desperately at vainglorious motives for my actions.

Quote:
Indeed I am genuinely very concerned for your safety, and for that of the others that you may endanger with your fantasized ideas.
Yes, only in this world is the man who constantly asks for proof, for evidence, the fantasist. Classic.
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:03 PM   #80
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Geoff Byers wrote: View Post
How can you possibly know how long a fight will last beforehand? Fantasy.

You have no fighting competition experience Sir.
If you qualify for MMA or boxing Sir, please consider practicing sparring every day for at least one full year.
We are not speaking of Aikido, but of dealing daily with guys who are "autorized" to actually beat you/being beaten by you.

Then you will understand perfectly what I said, and you will concur.

Unfortunately there is no way to make such points totally understood to a person who has never had the opportunity to fight intensively and daily for prolonged times. I understand why you consider them "fantasy".

Place one full year of experience under your belt with MMA or boxing competitons Sir, and you will see what a difference that will make.
You will know it beforehand, inclusive of your defeat well before it occurs!
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Old 05-21-2012, 03:21 PM   #81
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Benjamin Green wrote: View Post
The cop was, admittedly, better, but he wasn't much better.
True.
Glad that you noticed that

Perhaps you may also have noticed another evident element: his punches were not hurtful. So, you could afford close quarters, and since he was inclined to uppercuts (well, the other guy kept his head lowered and could see his arms instead than looking at him in right the face, so he was inviting uppercuts...), find marvelous ways to his chin tip by hooks - for with uppercuts his face sides are exposed to hook routes.

However, another thing immediately obvious - you could not count on making him run out of breath any soon... this is suggested not by the fact he is so forceful (guys who start fast may end fast, actually) but by the fact he is while keeping physical composure (the guys who was beaten instead was very unorderly).
That (composure) spells for some factual experience.

At the end of the video the "cop" fires a good straight right - too bad we cannot see more to guess how he could behave or find himself comfortable with distance fighting.

All small things that you can process just within the first 10 seconds.

However, a person who is not used to fist fighting (and that was a regular street fist-fighitng, for which MMA or boxing experience makes the difference) would not last 2 minutes with that secuity guard. Less than one round and then it's over.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:19 AM   #82
Anjisan
Dojo: Aikido of Madison
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
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Ki Symbol Re: your number one technique

My number one technique are when those occasions come up where I allow myself to completely let go of technique and consequently the technique recognizable or not just happens!
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:55 AM   #83
Benjamin Green
Join Date: Jul 2010
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post
True.
Glad that you noticed that

Perhaps you may also have noticed another evident element: his punches were not hurtful. So, you could afford close quarters, and since he was inclined to uppercuts (well, the other guy kept his head lowered and could see his arms instead than looking at him in right the face, so he was inviting uppercuts...), find marvelous ways to his chin tip by hooks - for with uppercuts his face sides are exposed to hook routes.

However, another thing immediately obvious - you could not count on making him run out of breath any soon... this is suggested not by the fact he is so forceful (guys who start fast may end fast, actually) but by the fact he is while keeping physical composure (the guys who was beaten instead was very unorderly).
That (composure) spells for some factual experience.

At the end of the video the "cop" fires a good straight right - too bad we cannot see more to guess how he could behave or find himself comfortable with distance fighting.

All small things that you can process just within the first 10 seconds.

However, a person who is not used to fist fighting (and that was a regular street fist-fighitng, for which MMA or boxing experience makes the difference) would not last 2 minutes with that secuity guard. Less than one round and then it's over.
While I agree that street fights often look like that among the less dangerous portions of the population, the fact is that most people can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They just get drunk and angry.

Most of what the guard did missed. He even misses the initial counter. His virtue, such as it was, was that he was throwing out enough that the other guy wasn't really giving him anything in return. But he wasn't keeping it together. He'd just got into a position where he had to keep swinging to stop the other guy making any decisions. If was experienced he'd have picked his shots with a purpose that set him up to actually deliver stuff, rather than just throwing it out and praying for a hit.

Most of what I saw wasn't suited for the range at which he was attempting to employ it. He didn't either didn't appreciate or hadn't trained the reflexes to adapt the tactical role of his movements. That suggests to me, rather than fist fighting experience where he'd have run across that problem before, he had some gym training - boxing perhaps - and bad training at that.

Could he beat up some random numpty who'd never thrown a punch in their life? Sure. Could he have taken your average drunkard? Sure. But anyone who'd got a couple of week's worth of paired reaction drills and some light-contact full-speed fooling around to their name would, I suspect, have had him for breakfast - even a beginner with no experience actually fighting. They wouldn't have had to work out what his game was, they wouldn't have found themselves being forced into a certain pattern of response that set them up on the losing side. He didn't have a game - he'd managed to adequately paralyse his decision making process without anyone else doing anything other than standing in front of him.
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Old 09-28-2012, 06:20 AM   #84
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Re: your number one technique

Quote:
X Y wrote:
How can you possibly know how long a fight will last beforehand? Fantasy.
Quote:
Alberto Italiano wrote: View Post

(...)

Unfortunately there is no way to make such points totally understood to a person who has never had the opportunity to fight intensively and daily for prolonged times. I understand why you consider them "fantasy".

Place one full year of experience under your belt with MMA or boxing competitons Sir, and you will see what a difference that will make.
You will know it beforehand, inclusive of your defeat well before it occurs!
I found a great instance of what I said namely that it is perfectly possibile to know with the greatest advance how a fight will end, till the tinest detail.

I know this may sound alien to most persons, however this video proves I was speaking of something that exists indeed. Maybe not casually, this comes from boxing: you need experience in actual fighting in order to know how a fight may end.

In this case the guy, as stated repeatedly in the video (first time at min 00.59), knew even before the fight begun how it would go, till the tinest detail (this doesn't surprise me in the least, but maybe surprises many others?)

The fact the person featured here is a great champion makes no difference: when long ago I was speaking of this, I spoke so not as a great champion but as one of the many suburban bums who practiced for a while.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FZBzGhxERg

I hope this helps to understand. This is how great features you may develop if you allow a martial art to go martial and act martially.

But you will never come to know a thing about this with Aikido unless it will get rid of its epidemic tendency (not in all dojos, but in most) to hyperprotected and highly fictional attacks.

Real fighting is made of anticipation (and this is how you may know in advance).
But you cannot anticipate if you have not sparred to know what may come your way given a starting setting, You need to face attacks that are ruthless and free to come at you and keep pursuing you with the greatest liberty, in order to learn all the possibilities and know beforehand what will come your way given the alley you're in.

Last edited by Alberto_Italiano : 09-28-2012 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 09-29-2012, 06:07 PM   #85
SteveTrinkle
Dojo: Aikido Kenkyukai International
Location: Ambler, Pennsylvania
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Re: your number one technique

my number one technique:showing up at the dojo

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Old 10-01-2012, 01:44 AM   #86
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: your number one technique

Soyou got to a fight or a sparrng session and run away to the dojo?

what?
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