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Old 05-23-2002, 11:51 PM   #26
Bronson
 
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What about the suffix -sha.

Like in the word bugeisha. Bu (martial), gei (the cultivation of craft), sha (the exponent)

This is from Dave Lowry's "Sword and Brush".

As people who simply study aikido would it be appropriate to call ourselves aikidosha?

Is there a word that denotes "a student of", or "a studier of"?

Just wondering.
Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-03-2002, 03:33 PM   #27
les paul
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Freaky! Ummmmm.....

I once knew a chief who didn't like the word "food." He wasn't a very good chief, seems he never could focus on preparing a meal.

Budo is Budo nothing more..... nothing less......

Paul Calugaru
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:14 AM   #28
computerdog
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Thumbs down

I don't mind the word. Actually I start to like it. 'ka' means profession or something you do for life and for living. And that is what is so cool about this word. Aikido is not only what you learn on the tatami, it is something you do every second. So, maybe you will start to like the word one day as well
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Old 06-04-2002, 10:36 AM   #29
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by computerdog
'ka' means profession or something you do for life and for living.
Are you sure that you're not redefining the term to suit your own inclinations?

The "or something you do for life and for living" is an alternate definition that I've never come across.

So, because I love cooking, prepare several meals each week, will do so as long as I live and derive a great deal of peace and personal satisfaction, am I a "Chef"?

I guess I don't understand "for life and for living".

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-06-2002, 06:32 AM   #30
computerdog
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I think you now what it means but it is my crappy English that ruins it
What I mean is that Aikido should not be something you only practice on the tatami. Not that it is bad if you choose to. But Aikido can be a way of living. You can learn to use AIkido in daily life.
(I would like to refer to the book 'AIkido in daily life' but I can not remeber who wrote it )
But if you just want to cook when you are hungry, that is fine with me

greets

Erik
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Old 06-06-2002, 06:47 AM   #31
Greg Jennings
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Quote:
Originally posted by computerdog
I think you now what it means but it is my crappy English that ruins it
What I mean is that Aikido should not be something you only practice on the tatami. Not that it is bad if you choose to. But Aikido can be a way of living. You can learn to use AIkido in daily life.
(I would like to refer to the book 'AIkido in daily life' but I can not remeber who wrote it )
But if you just want to cook when you are hungry, that is fine with me
Your English is fine. I marvel at anyone that has enough of any foreign language to carry on a conversation. Mine doesn't extend beyond ordering a beer (but in several languages, is that a good thing???).

Aikido In Daily Life was written by Koichi Tohei Sensei. It was originally pubished, I think, around 1950.

My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.

Best Regards,

Greg Jennings
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Old 06-06-2002, 08:31 AM   #32
erikmenzel
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greg Jennings
Your English is fine. I marvel at anyone that has enough of any foreign language to carry on a conversation.
So, does this mean you are gonna build a place of worship for me (know 6 languages) and my girlfriend (knows 9 languages and is also my favorite trainingpartner).

Quote:
Mine doesn't extend beyond ordering a beer (but in several languages, is that a good thing???).
I think so, cause after a couple of glasses every language gets transformed into international beertalk anyway, thus making communication easier and harder at the same time.
Quote:
My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.
Agreed, but still we have to watch out for trying be more japanese than the japanese on the one hand, and being ignorant western peasants on the other hand. It sometimes is just a thin line.

Erik Jurrien Menzel
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Personal:www.kuipers-menzel.com
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Old 06-06-2002, 09:08 AM   #33
computerdog
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I agree with you Erik. I think I will have to get back on this one after I have been talking to my teacher who speaks Japanese.
This because I found that actually 'ka' is pointing to 'you' and can therefore be used in several ways. 'Ogenki desu ka?' means 'how are you?'. This would make sence, but I will get back on this, I promise. I think we are getting all a bit confused here. (I am anyway)

But Gregg, I do not understand a few things here.
---------------------------------------------
My point is that if we're studying a Japanese martial art and we're going to use the Japanese language, we ought to be courteous enough to use the terms correctly.
---------------------------------------------
Before this you said:

---------------------------------------------
So, because I love cooking, prepare several meals each week, will do so as long as I live and derive a great deal of peace and personal satisfaction, am I a "Chef"?
---------------------------------------------

What do you do when you prepare Spaghetti? Do you learn Italian first?

Oh, and it is not that book I was talking about. The book I was looking for was written by 2 American persons. I will have a look for this one as well anyway. Cheers for that
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Old 06-06-2002, 09:17 AM   #34
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This is the book I was talking about.


Terry Dobson and Victor Miller's Aikido in Everyday Life: Giving in to Get Your Way North Atlantic Books, 1978, 1993 ISBN 1-55643-151-1 $14.95). Great book. Highly recommend.

I will talk to my teacher tonight about the rest.

greeetz

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Old 06-06-2002, 09:29 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by computerdog

This because I found that actually 'ka' is pointing to 'you' and can therefore be used in several ways. 'Ogenki desu ka?' means 'how are you?'. This would make sence, but I will get back on this, I promise. I think we are getting all a bit confused here. (I am anyway)
Once again, this "ka" at the end of a Japanese sentence has nothing to do with the "ka" in the term "aikidoka" -- nor is it denoting the word for "you" as you write above.

The "ka" at the end of a Japanese sentence in this case is, basically, a way to make the sentence into a question. It's kind of like how in German, you can add "oder?" to the end of a sentence to make it into a question ("Sie sind ein Rechsanwalt, oder?").

The "you" in "ogenki desuka?" is not explicitly stated but is inferred. Japanese sentences do not necessarily have to have subjects (nor objects, for that matter) if it can be understood from contect. It's kind of like how in some languages (like Spanish), you can contruct a sentence without the subject if the subject can be understood from how the verb has been inflected ("Tengo dolor de cabeza" versus "Tienes dolor de cabeza"). However, Japanese verbs do not get inflected in the manner of Spanish and German -- it stays "the same."

In any case, I just wanted to also provide at least two data points for native Japanese speakers (myself and my teacher) who, in our experience, have used and have heard used the suffix "ka" as a profession (eg a writer (sakka), a politician (seijika)) -- not just for someone who is referring to a sport, pasttime, or hobby that they do.

-- Jun

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Old 06-06-2002, 11:25 AM   #36
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Quote:
not just for someone who is referring to a sport, pasttime, or hobby that they do.

Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?

I'm very confused

Bronson

"A pacifist is not really a pacifist if he is unable to make a choice between violence and non-violence. A true pacifist is able to kill or maim in the blink of an eye, but at the moment of impending destruction of the enemy he chooses non-violence."
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Old 06-06-2002, 11:42 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronson
Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?
As I wrote in the thread referenced in my first response in this thread (in part):

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
If someone were to ask me what kind of hobbies ("shumi") I have, I'd say something along the lines of "I do aikido" ("aikido wo shite imasu"). I don't think there's any precise term to designate someone as "One who practices aikido."
Another way of saying this would be something along the lines of, "Watashi no shumi (no hitotsu) wa aikido desu" ("A hobby of mine is aikido"). If you want to convey that you're very "dedicated" to the art, you could probably say something like, "Aikido wo nesshin ni shite imasu."

Chris? Anything to add?

-- Jun

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Old 06-06-2002, 02:37 PM   #38
Peter Goldsbury
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bronson



Although I don't really consider it to be just a hobby or pastime, I guess the fact that I don't even come close to making a living with my aikido practice would put me in that bracket. So, is there any suffix or word that would be used to denote someone who is a regular student or practictioner of something? If someone played baseball on an amateur neighborhood league, or someone who painted for fun and continued to take painting classes what would they be called?

I'm very confused

Bronson
I think that in Japanese KA ()is precisely such a suffix or word. It is mistake to think of the concept simply in professional or job terms. I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.

I have emphasised CAN in the above sentence because the use of the word is much wider in Japanese. So, for example, the following in Japanese are all expressed as ----KA (I have chosen from a list of over 150 in Spahn & Hadamitzky's "The Kanji Dictionary": I have chosen this dictionary because I do not have easy access to a Japanese monolingual dictionary which lists words under any of the characters which occur in the word):

novelist (shousetsuka)
music lover (kougakuka)
voracious reader (tadokuka)
hard worker (doryokuka)
expert (senmonka)
amateur (kouzuka)
aviator (hikouka)
revolutionary (kakumeika)
activist (katsudouka)
orator (nohbenka)
althlete (undouka)
critic (hyouronka)

In one dictionary 'judouka' is translated as 'judo expert', but the KA is also found in Japanese words for slow eaters, dreamers, lechers, and hen-pecked husbands. And I have given only those words with three characters. There are a whole load more with two characters ending in KA (). And there are over 100 other characters read as KA, besides

So, apart from 'aikidouka', which I would apply to someone with a certain expertise in aikido born of a definite commitment over a period of time, I would think the term could apply to, e.g, someone who cooks or paints for a hobby and is thought to be pretty good at it. I don't think English has a suffix which has quite the range of KA in Japanese.

However, as Jun said, I would not use aikidouka to refer to myself, just as I would never use the word 'sensei' to apply it to myself. When asked, I usually reply with the Japanese equivalent of 'I do aikido'.

Best regards,

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 06-06-2002 at 02:51 PM.

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Old 06-06-2002, 03:05 PM   #39
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Hi Peter,

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
I think that in Japanese KA ()is precisely such a suffix or word. It is mistake to think of the concept simply in professional or job terms. I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.
Ah, yes. Good point in the above (as well as the rest of your post). Benkyou ni narimashita.

But, here's a question for you. For those "non-professional" -ka words such as doryokuka, tadokuka, kougakuka, and so forth, do you feel like a Japanese person would apply such a monicker to him or herself? In other words, do you think you'd every hear someone say, "Watashi wa tadokuka desu"? I'm asking since I wonder if a Japanese would ever consider him or herself a "ka" when it's not a profession?

Bringing this back to aikido/budo (although it's not quite the same topic), Peter, I know that Japanese teachers (in or outside of aikido) will refer to themselves as sensei (as a profession, not as a title like "mister" or "san") in the context of "Watashi wa aikido no sensei desu. " Do they ever refer to themselves as "shihan," though? Or is the term more or less what others call the person?

While I'm at it, does hearing people refer to themselves as "Such-and-such sensei" (eg "Hi, I'm Smith sensei") sound odd to you, too?

-- Jun

Last edited by akiy : 06-06-2002 at 04:32 PM.

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Old 06-06-2002, 04:23 PM   #40
Kami
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Smile AIKIDOKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
I think the term CAN denote a kind of expertise in something, whether done for business orfor pleasure, which has been acquired as a result of training or habit.
However, as Jun said, I would not use aikidouka to refer to myself, just as I would never use the word 'sensei' to apply it to myself. When asked, I usually reply with the Japanese equivalent of 'I do aikido'.
Best regards,
KAMI : Very aptly put, Goldsbury Sama. You wouldn't call yourself aikidoka or Sensei or Shihan. But, if I called you AIKIDOKA, would that be wrong?
By the way, did you get my last personal e-mails with some questions?
Very interested in your answers

"We are all teachers, and what we teach is what we need to learn, and so we teach it over and over again until we learn it".
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Old 06-06-2002, 06:28 PM   #41
Peter Goldsbury
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Hello Jun,

Hiroshima is fine, but it is very mushi-atsui. I could not sleep, so I got up at 3.30am and wrote that last post. A few more thoughts.

Quote:
Originally posted by akiy
Hi Peter,


Ah, yes. Good point in the above (as well as the rest of your post). Benkyou ni narimashita.

But, here's a question for you. For those "non-professional" -ka words such as doryokuka, tadokuka, kougakuka, and so forth, do you feel like a Japanese person would apply such a monicker to him or herself? In other words, do you think you'd every hear someone say, "Watashi wa tadokuka desu"? I'm asking since I wonder if a Japanese would ever consider him or herself a "ka" when it's not a profession?

PAG. No, I do not think so. I think the meaning of the KA character carries a strong element of public approbation (or sometimes denigration) and Japanese have been trained over decades never to to apply honorifics to themselves, as I am sure you are aware.

Bringing this back to aikido/budo (although it's not quite the same topic), Peter, I know that Japanese teachers (in or outside of aikido) will refer to themselves as sensei (as a profession, not as a title like "mister" or "san") in the context of "Watashi wa aikido no sensei desu. " Do they ever refer to themselves as "shihan," though? Or is the term more or less what others call the person?

PAG. I have never heard a Japanese aikido teacher here refer to himself as Sensei (as a profession). For example, Kyoichi Inoue on his meishi has Dojo-cho (even in English), but Shihan is used as a title on meishi. I have heard people like Hiroshi Tada refer to themselves as Hombu Shihan when meeting for the first time people unconnected with aikido. I have 'kyouju' on my meishi, for that is my title, but I would refer to myself as 'kyoukan' in a similar situation.

While I'm at it, does hearing people refer to themselves as "Such-and-such sensei" (eg "Hi, I'm Smith sensei") sound odd to you, too?

PAG. Yes, I have been here long enough for it make me wince.

-- Jun
Thus, I think there are two reasons against the use of 'aikidouka' as a general term applying to anyone who does aikido: (a) beginners are still in potential and need to rack up a few more years and skill; (b) since it is a Japanese term, it is not really correct to use it of oneself.

To Ubaldo,

No,you would not be wrong in using 'aikidouka' of me, even though I am not a professional, and I would also use it of quite a number of people who contribute to this bulletin board.

I have received your last e-mail and should have acknowledged it. Forgive me. I am working on the questions.

Best regards to you both,

P A Goldsbury
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Old 06-06-2002, 06:56 PM   #42
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Muddying the water

Muddying the water further, I finally got a chance to ask my Sensei this week. The question was "what do you call someone who does Aikido?". I explained about the use of aikidoka, he said "ahh, that`s strange", then decided that budoka would be best.

A difficult problem is easily solved by asking yourself the question, "Just how would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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Old 06-07-2002, 02:49 AM   #43
Kami
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Thumbs down QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS...

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Goldsbury
To Ubaldo,
No,you would not be wrong in using 'aikidouka' of me, even though I am not a professional, and I would also use it of quite a number of people who contribute to this bulletin board.
I have received your last e-mail and should have acknowledged it. Forgive me. I am working on the questions.
Best regards to you both,
KAMI : Please, do take your time! I know how little time you do have and I'm always amazed how you have time to answer our questions.
I'm sure the answer when it comes will be, as always, an excellent one.
Best regards and always a good keiko

Last edited by Kami : 06-07-2002 at 03:02 AM.

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Old 06-07-2002, 04:35 AM   #44
computerdog
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So here we are again
Thanks Jun, you are so right. My teacher slapt me as well because of the 'ka?' mistake.
So, it seems like ka is a profession indeed. (someting you do as a profession)
But is also seem to be used as 'him who practices'. (I would like to say it in one word but I do not know how to say this in English)
'Beoefenaar' for them whi speak Dutch or Flamish
I double checked this with my Japanese colleague and she said that this is correct but not used very often.
Am I close enough with this one?

Thanks everyone by the way....
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