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Old 01-07-2011, 06:53 AM   #1
niall
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Judo and Aikido

For anyone interested in judo but who doesn't check out the blogs I wrote a post about what judoka can learn from aikido and aikidoka can learn from judo.

http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in...d-aikido-4098/

I'd be glad for any comments especially about things I might have missed.

Thanks.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 01-07-2011, 08:51 AM   #2
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
For anyone interested in judo but who doesn't check out the blogs I wrote a post about what judoka can learn from aikido and aikidoka can learn from judo.

http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/moon-in...d-aikido-4098/

I'd be glad for any comments especially about things I might have missed.

Thanks.
Hello Niall,

Since this is in the Non-Aikido Martial Traditions forum, I would think that your post would be better suited to the regular aikido forums. I personally view this forum as being closer to Morihei Ueshiba's aikido all the while being lumped in with other martial systems. Which, to me, is fine. Ueshiba's aikido is as different to Modern Aikido as MMA is to Modern Aikido. Neither operate on the same core principles, training, spirituality, or martial skills.

So, for me, what you've addressed in your blog is geared towards Modern Aikido, which would really find a much better audience in the regular Training forum. I'd imagine a lot of people never even read the Non-Aikido forum, so I doubt your post will get much attention.

Unless, you were wondering how what you wrote compares to how we, non-Modern Aikido people, view things?
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:12 AM   #3
Mike Sigman
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Re: Judo and Aikido

I like the compilation of differentiated items, Niall. Thanks for doing that.

Frankly, the actual "ju" skills I tend to see as a monolithic set of body skills (mainly) that were startling enough to start a whole movement in Japan. From that monolithic set of skills, a number of variations branched off with a focus on (or a focus that developed later in time), for instance, "sport", life philosophy, certain martial range and adaptation, and so on. But essentially, before degradation, loss of knowledge, etc., set in, all of these arts were mostly talking about the same thing.

I think the idea that the original idea of kuzushi in Judo is somehow different from kuzushi in Aikido is just wrong. Understandings have morphed into misunderstandings, but I think that's all that happened.

Something like Seiryoku Zenyo is really the same stuff that Koichi Tohei does, if you understand it. Kano obviously had more ki/kokyu skills than the current lot in Judo even have a remote idea about, so it's more the lack of information than it is real differences that mark most of the things you posted.

Aikido in the West has had no idea (despite the voluminous clues) that ki things were real and had somehow gone missing until recently. Judo lost their skills some time ago, as Shioda noted in a comment in the book "Aikido Shugyo". Left alone, all martial-arts devolve into strip-mall McDojo's. I think your list is more a reflection of the devolution than it is of any real differences at core.

YMMV

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-07-2011, 09:42 AM   #4
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Re: Judo and Aikido

I can address only a part ‘what aikidoka can learn from judo’ based on my wife experiences – few years ago she added judo training to her aikido training.

Generally, I disagree with most of the points from your list as they are taught very well in any serious aikido training. Instead I would add following what we can learn from judo training:

Humility –it is your skills that count, not your grade. On the tatami and outside of tatami.

When the technique is going wrong it is always nage fault, never uke. There are no exceptions, uke is always right.

Warm-up is designed to seriously warm up a body before training; it is not meditation-type exercise. Warm body greatly reduces possibility of injuries. Warm-up also plays important role to develop and improve muscular flexibility as 99.99% aikido beginners have literally no muscles at all.

From the beginning of your aikido journey you have to use a lot of muscles to efficiently execute techniques. There is no way to avoid it, the question is HOW and WHEN to use them.

Our body must be in excellent shape for any martial art –type exercises. Well developed stamina must and can be maintained to the end of our life.

Removing hesitation from execution of aikido techniques. As in aikido we are trying to protect attacker, it is very normal that often we are hesitating to apply techniques with full power and speed. However, because of that, techniques become inefficient.

Finishing techniques to the end. Often situation in aikido is as following: once nage takes attacker balance, uke falls down by himself. So nage is not too much concerned to continue the technique to the point of complete control, to exclude any possibility of the counter.

Attacker is not a self-throwing bag full of stones. He is very alive and constantly creating opportunities to counter your technique.

From strictly technical point of view it is your position (where you are in comparison to the postion of the attacker’s body) that decides what technique you apply. So the most important goal of the initial entry is to get to the right position.

Nagababa

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Old 01-07-2011, 10:44 AM   #5
carina reinhardt
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Re: Judo and Aikido

It was a good idea to put it also here, so I can comment with more words
I don't know much about judo, but once we had a one day seminar between judo, aikido and jiujitsu, each teacher did a few techniques, we were separated by ranks and did the three of them, for me it was very very interesting.
About differences I think first the ma ai, judo techniques are beeing done much closer.
In judo most of the techniques are on the floor, but in aikido only when we do in suwari waza but again keeping distance.
In judo there is also competition, in aikido not.
And of course judo does not use arms.
Judokas use the force of the opponent against him, meanwhile aikidokas does it also but in an harmonizing way.
And our teacher likes to do kata gatame for stretching at the end of the class .
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:30 PM   #6
David Orange
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Humility --it is your skills that count, not your grade. On the tatami and outside of tatami.
Judo people learn that they can lose and also that it's not the end of the world. However, they also learn that their own hard work and conditioning is the most important thing. In aikido, without ever winning or losing, it's easy to get the idea that we can't lose, and that is an early symptom of a crucial sickness.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
When the technique is going wrong it is always nage fault, never uke. There are no exceptions, uke is always right.
A friend of mine got to Japan after many, many years of saying he wanted to go. He then was seriously injured in his first round of randori when the uke (another old friend) fell on his arm in a sutemi waza. After that, he continually blamed the uke. Sad situation. But it saved him from any more martial arts training in Japan. He actually never really wanted to go.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
Attacker is not a self-throwing bag full of stones. He is very alive and constantly creating opportunities to counter your technique.
In judo, this is understood, but not so widely in aikido and I think it's getting worse.

Modern aikido is like weight-lifting with papier mache barbells. Our weights look the same as the strongman's and we use exactly the same movements as the strongman, but our weights are weightless. This is the fallacy of the unresisting uke. Judo prevents that idea from taking root.

Quote:
Szczepan Janczuk wrote: View Post
From strictly technical point of view it is your position (where you are in comparison to the postion of the attacker's body) that decides what technique you apply. So the most important goal of the initial entry is to get to the right position.
I agree that position decides the technique. Nowadays, my thinking is to not need any special position because judo provides techniques for any relative position of nage to uke. Take the technique the position allows.

Great points.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-07-2011, 01:51 PM   #7
Mark Kruger
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Re: Judo and Aikido

I've been practicing aikido since 1990 and Judo since 2000.

> Irimi. How to enter towards an attacker.
Have a judoka demonstrate morote gari and drop seoi nage. Both techniques require entry. In the case of a drop seoi nage I find that it works best for me if I enter so deeply that my feet are _behind_ my partner's feet. Of course there are more techniques that enter, but those two should be a good example.

> Tenkan. How to turn away from an attack.
Uchi mata sukashi? Also, I've been thrown by tai otoshi after I attacked with a driving o uchi gari which my partner stepped out of (obviously not my best o uchi).

> Musubi. How to blend with an attack. How to use the connection to the attacker.
The essence of counters. Tsubami gaishi in response to a de ashi barai. I can't remember how many times I've blended in with o goshi, ippon seoi nage, or simliar throw and countered with tani otoshi.

> Kuzushi. The aikido concept of kuzushi.
In my experience they are the same.

> Weapons. How to use weapons. How weapons relate to taijutsu.
Having studies iaido since 1994, I think the vast majority of aikidoka I've met don't get weapons either.

> Atemi. How to use atemi and how not to get hit by atemi.
I'll buy that, but I think that judoka could learn atemi much more easily from striking experts.

> Kansetsu waza. Learn some joint techniques with a slightly different emphasis.
Yup. Nikkyo is a great boon during the grip fighting phase of randori and shiai. Of course my partner doesn't hold on and go down, he lets go (allowing me to try and get a better grip).

> Mushin. Learn to do techniques naturally with the body, not by planning a strategy.
Technique without planning, occurring spontaneously, happen all them time in randori.

> Suwari waza (kneeling techniques) and hanmi handachi waza (kneeling techniques against a standing attack). Learning techniques in three dimensions.
Yes. Judo doesn't really have much in the way of suwari waza or hanmi handachi waza outside of kata. Drop seoi nage and the sutemi waza all have a large vertical component in them.

> Taninzu gake. Learn to deal with multiple attackers and the concept that there can always be multiple attackers.
Yes, all the judo I've seen has been aimed at two person interactions.

> Kokyu. Learn breathing as part of the technique.
Breathing during the throw does get covered, but not in as great a detail as in aikido. Having said that, in a high energy randori, you _will_ breath.

> Ma ai. How to deal with attacks at a greater distance.
Close the distance, get a grip, throw. Having said that, there is a great deal of study of ma ai within the range that judo plays.

> Omote and ura. The concept of a technique having two versions or two faces
Yes, judo techniques don't have an external inside and outside.

> Realistic self-defence. For example face-down katame waza/osaekomi.
The seated ikkyo pin last only as long as it takes me to roll over the "pinned" shoulder. Holding my arm at an obtuse angle to my torso helps delay the roll, but I usually manage to find or create an opening. The yonkyo pin is even more fun since it ends with me in a guard, legs around both nage's arms (which are holding my forearm under my body), and my other arm free to strike. Most standing pins allow me to "watermelon seed" my shoulder out, at which point I pivot on my opposite side hip to bring my legs between myself and nage.

>Spiritual dimension. Aikido probably has a more developed spiritual philosophy.
Yup, most judo has devolved down to sport.

>Universality. Men and women train together naturally
Men and women train together in all the judo dojo's I've trained at. I'm sure that there are segregated dojos, but is that really jita kyoei?

Ageless. Aikido can be practised comfortably by people in their seventies or eighties.
Sort of. The sport emphasis drives alot of older players away.

Anyway, those are my comments about the judo section. Perhaps later today I can comment on the aikido section.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:09 PM   #8
Mark Kruger
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Kruger wrote: View Post
> Irimi. How to enter towards an attacker.
Have a judoka demonstrate morote gari and drop seoi nage. Both techniques require entry. In the case of a drop seoi nage I find that it works best for me if I enter so deeply that my feet are _behind_ my partner's feet. Of course there are more techniques that enter, but those two should be a good example.
Never mind the demonstration... obviously you know them. None the less, I still hold that there is plenty of entry in judo.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #9
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
I'd imagine a lot of people never even read the Non-Aikido forum,
i dunno Mark...this is the only forum i pay much attention too anymore!
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:52 PM   #10
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
David Orange wrote: View Post
In aikido, without ever winning or losing, it's easy to get the idea that we can't lose, and that is an early symptom of a crucial sickness.
aint that the truth!
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Old 01-08-2011, 02:28 AM   #11
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Thanks. I really appreciate all the comments. It's very helpful and interesting to have the opinions of people who also have done both judo and aikido. A couple of quick replies.

Hi, Mark. I think judo is a quintessential non-aikido martial tradition.

Thanks, Mike, that's a very interesting perspective. On the technical point I agree with you that kuzushi is kuzushi. Certainly from a physics point of view. And I'm sure people like Jigoro Kano and Kyuzo Mifune were able to break balance in the same way as an aikido teacher. I think that aikidoka can learn something from the normal excellent kuzushi technique of a world-class judoka like Kosei Inoue for example. And judoka might learn something for example from Seishiro Endo Sensei.

As you can see from the Kosei Inoue video the kuzushi is a sharp down-up high forwards-upwards movement. This technically very good kuzushi in judo is quite different from a great kuzushi in aikido which is very smooth and soft and often downwards.

Kosei Inoue kuzushi

Seishiro Endo Sensei kuzushi

Thanks for your ideas, Szecepan. My experience of aikido in Japan is different - which is why I wrote the article. I have almost never seen ne waza or ashi waza - or most of the other points that I suggested an aikidoka could learn from judo - treated systematically in an aikido dojo. Your other points about judo are excellent and I agree with many of them.

Thanks for your comments, Carina. In some of the judo kata in fact there are weapons techniques.

Thanks for your contributions too, David. Good first point there also picked up by Ricky.

Thanks for your detailed comments, Mark. I'm going to disagree with a couple of them. Irimi first. Sokumen irimi - entering to the side/corner in a completely safe way - maybe with an atemi or two - is quite different from the sports judo techniques of morote gari (knee to the head) or drop seoi nage (never turn your back on an attacker) which rely on speed and which noone would think of using in self-defence. I would also include the idea of kuzushi in irimi - crushing the attacker's centre as you enter - but again, from the side or corner - not from directly in front (as it would be in ouchi gari, say). For pure kuzushi see my comment above about Mike's post. Of course you are right about all sorts of techniques coming out in randori - the mushin point was aimed at the judoka who have one or two tokui waza (special/go to techniques) and who try to set them up at all costs. On the other hand aikidoka might find a tactical or strategic plan useful in certain situations (attacked by several attackers at once, for instance).

Hi Ricky - thanks for your comments!

Niall

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Old 01-08-2011, 09:03 AM   #12
Mike Sigman
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Thanks, Mike, that's a very interesting perspective. On the technical point I agree with you that kuzushi is kuzushi. Certainly from a physics point of view. And I'm sure people like Jigoro Kano and Kyuzo Mifune were able to break balance in the same way as an aikido teacher. I think that aikidoka can learn something from the normal excellent kuzushi technique of a world-class judoka like Kosei Inoue for example. And judoka might learn something for example from Seishiro Endo Sensei.

As you can see from the Kosei Inoue video the kuzushi is a sharp down-up high forwards-upwards movement. This technically very good kuzushi in judo is quite different from a great kuzushi in aikido which is very smooth and soft and often downwards.

Kosei Inoue kuzushi

Seishiro Endo Sensei kuzushi
Hi Niall:

The kuzushi that Inoue is using is pretty mechanical. A good martial artist is, of course, going to use whatever type of kuzushi is most expedient, even if he is a top expert and can do more subtle kuzushi. Inoue is using a trick that is often used in push hands: by pushing down on Uke you force him to engage his quadriceps; when you suddenly release the downward pressure his quads unbalance him upward and you can apply a technique.

Endo is using jin/kokyu (some might say "aiki", "reiki", whatever) in a general first-level use of the skills, but he does it expertly (Uke has to be willing to present a prolonged and artificial resistance).

There's an even higher level than that (along with attendant powers), but my point would still be that at some point in time all of these levels of kuzushi were available and used by the various "ju" arts (of which Aikido is one). What's happened is that the fixed attention to the various "internal-strength" or "ju" skills has deteriorated for the most part into technique stuff, but if you look past that, there's not really a lot of difference between judo, Aikido, koryu jujitsu arts, and so on. And year, I know that "seniors" in various arts would object to that broader view, but I think it can be defended fairly easily.

2 cents.

Mike Sigman
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:21 PM   #13
niall
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Thanks Mike. I wanted to identify areas in each budo that could be helpful for pragmatic crosstraining. I don't think your theoretical and historical point is particularly controversial.

Internal strength/power - in the sense that it seems to come up in these forums as a discrete skill to be studied somehow separately from normal training - is just not talked about in judo at all. So it seems to be of no interest to athletes who are primarily concerned with effectiveness and success in competition. And it's not talked about in aikido either in Japan.

we can make our minds so like still water, and so live for a moment with a clearer, perhaps even with a fiercer life
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:28 PM   #14
David Orange
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Thanks Mike. I wanted to identify areas in each budo that could be helpful for pragmatic crosstraining. I don't think your theoretical and historical point is particularly controversial.

Internal strength/power - in the sense that it seems to come up in these forums as a discrete skill to be studied somehow separately from normal training - is just not talked about in judo at all. So it seems to be of no interest to athletes who are primarily concerned with effectiveness and success in competition. And it's not talked about in aikido either in Japan.
I thought it was not talked about at my dojo in Japan, but now I remember times when it was. We did judo, aikido and karate (as well as many other things). We focused on technique. The internal strength aspect was regarded as something separate to be developed on your own if you wanted. But at the same time, there was an undercurrent, especially on the judo side, of developing IS. It was hard to recognize because they were also doing weights and other training besides the judo and aikido. But it was referred to as tanren. Only certain people talked about it but they became very hard to move.

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

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Old 01-10-2011, 12:41 PM   #15
Mark Kruger
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Quote:
Niall Matthews wrote: View Post
Thanks for your detailed comments, Mark. I'm going to disagree with a couple of them. Irimi first. Sokumen irimi - entering to the side/corner in a completely safe way - maybe with an atemi or two - is quite different from the sports judo techniques of morote gari (knee to the head) or drop seoi nage (never turn your back on an attacker) which rely on speed and which noone would think of using in self-defence. I would also include the idea of kuzushi in irimi - crushing the attacker's centre as you enter - but again, from the side or corner - not from directly in front (as it would be in ouchi gari, say).
Thank you for clarifying and expanding on your original idea. This will allow me to provide examples more closely tailored to your theory. O soto gari. Both variations I know involve entering to the rear corner. From there they diverge, one works to make uke light, the other to load him onto the near leg (to the point where the far foot should be off the ground before the reap). Other examples that involve entering to the side/corner: Ko soto gari, sasae tsuri komi ashi, tai otoshi, ko uchi mata, tani otoshi.

Knee to the head during morote gari? Keep the head and body erect during entry and contact. It also helps against a sprawl defense by a wrestler or strike to the back of the head or neck when using this technique outside of judo practice.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 01-10-2011, 02:55 PM   #16
Mark Kruger
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Re: Judo and Aikido

> Kuzushi. The judo concept of kuzushi: kuzushi, tsukuri and kake phases - breaking the balance, preparation and execution.
That's the way it is taught. I've always thought it helpful to think of it as kuzushi, tsukuri (while increasing kuzushi), and kake (with so much more added kuzushi that uke falls). Good aikido shares this trait, but I don't think it's talked about this explicitly very often.

> Randori. Free practice with both partners trying to execute techniques. Randori does exist in aikido in the judo sense in the style established by Kenji Tomiki who saw aikido through the eyes of a judoka. How to deal with an actively resisting uncooperative attacker who is trying to throw you.
Tomiki competitive randori, if I remember correctly from a long time ago had defined roles for uke and nage. Uke got points for stabbing nage, nage got points for applying technique to uke. Not quite the same as judo randori where both parties are on an equal footing (ignoring personal attributes like skill, size, strength, etc.).

>Shiai. I don't believe the sport aspect of shiai - contests - should be incorporated into aikido. But shiai in judo have positive aspects.
I'm of mixed mind about shiai. At one level, it's really good to see how your judo works when the adrenalin has kicked in for both you and your partner. On the other hand, there are all the competition optimizations in practice and rules created to make the competition more appealing to the audience.

> Educational value. Jigoro Kano specifically designed judo to have an educational dimension.
The sad thing is that modern judo is dominated by the sport aspect.

> Seiryoku zenyo. The principle of achieving the maximum effect with the minimum effort.
> Jita kyoei. Mutual welfare and benefit is a basic social principle of judo.
> Jika no kansei. Striving for perfection as a complete person.
I think these ideas exist in aikido, they just aren't as codified or clearly stated.

> The Kodokan, National Federations and the IJF. Single organizations! From the fractured world of aikido it seems an enviable and utopian system.
Yeah, until you see the infighting between federations within a nation, how the IJF is more interested in the olympic sport aspect of judo than any of the other aspects, or how the IJF and the Kodokan don't see eye to eye. Judo politics looks better from a distance than aikido politics, but up close, it smells just as bad.

Respectfully,
Mark Kruger
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Old 01-11-2011, 07:31 AM   #17
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Re: Judo and Aikido

Thanks Mark. I agree that osoto gari is a deep entry. One of my aikido teachers occasionally used an osoto reap in shiho nage. Thanks for all your thoughtful comments.

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