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Old 01-08-2011, 08:57 PM   #76
RED
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I don't see how else martial arts as an entity can exist without some form of competition, otherwise it becomes a mere dance and nothing else......
Life is competition .......
I've heard the opposite comment actually. The concept that competition turns it into a dance.

Example, a very interesting article on the issue: http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...ompetition.php

There are many who have the concept that the only true way to have competition in Budo is for one competitor to die. Anything less would be disrespectful to Budo.

Last edited by RED : 01-08-2011 at 09:01 PM.

MM
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:09 PM   #77
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
There are many who have the concept that the only true way to have competition in Budo is for one competitor to die. Anything less would be disrespectful to Budo.
Who says this, exactly?

Last edited by Budd : 01-08-2011 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Politeness
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:15 PM   #78
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

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Budd Yuhasz wrote: View Post
Who says this, exactly?
I posted a link.

MM
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:26 PM   #79
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
That's fine, of course, but it really doesn't have much to to with the question of the original poster.

What's the point of trying to deny that Kaiso condemned Aikido as sport?

Best,

Chris
Chris, you have your view, I have mine, it's obvious to me you are a "ki" and "o" sensei must be right "nut", so no amount of arguing the toss to whether he said it or not, really matters......
I'm naturally competitive, I prefer my style of aikido which is grounded in rationality, that being Shodokan, (Shodothug to you) I also infuse my other experience in other arts I feel are practical, and discard that which isn't, no big deal.....
I like/prefer to be rational, I don't believe in woo woo or mystical powers, I don't need a crutch, unless I break my leg......
I don't put humans on pedestals as some sort of deity to be worshipped and idolised, but there is nothing wrong in admiring a person for their accomplishments....
When we see Tohei's wrestling match with the geezer/reporter in that old newsreel, I just thought he didn't look any different to most average Shodokan players, albeit it he was being as kind as he could to him.... Didn't see any mystical "ki" there, so I know where I'm coming from, do you?
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:35 PM   #80
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I've heard the opposite comment actually. The concept that competition turns it into a dance.

Example, a very interesting article on the issue: http://www.aikidoonline.com/articles...ompetition.php

There are many who have the concept that the only true way to have competition in Budo is for one competitor to die. Anything less would be disrespectful to Budo.
I have used what skills I do possess to defend myself on numerous occasions in real life.....I have been 99% successful. In all those altercations, I have never had to "kill" anyone but just managed to take away their desire to do me any more damage.....
It is not necessitous to kill anyone unless you are faced with actual impending death, then its either him/her or you....
I'd rather it be them.....

As for Yamada sensei he has his views, I have mine..... It might be that some people have a vested interest in saying the things they do in "aikido" where it may be that reality might be a bit embarrassing? I wonder?

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-08-2011 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 01-08-2011, 09:40 PM   #81
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Aikido is not a Sport
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Old 01-08-2011, 10:02 PM   #82
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
I posted a link.
Ah ok . . well that kind of declaration from Yamada speaks to me more about how he wants to run his organization rather than being a reasonable definition for "care and feeding the growth" of aikido as budo. He mentioned judo and karate . . and I think he's even speaking out of turn there, given that there's several practices of those disciplines that balance the competitive/sparring aspects very cleanly with traditional kata practices that have more historical provenance in budo/bujutsu than most anything of the "modern" kata that are in aikido.

I think it notable that he didn't speak to kendo - which is a sport, a competitive endeavor, as well as maintaining a series of kata and having close relationships with more than one of koryu arts (speaking from memory, but I think Shinto-muso ryu being one, where Shimizu sensei created kata to be included into the umbrella of the Kendo organization as a jodo branch, I also think some of the iado falls in here, stemming from older systems).

Personally, I think a well-rounded budo contains aspects of competitive training - within their place. And as been mentioned earlier, there's a period by which you have to learn to "own" the practice before being thrown into competition . . but that should be up to each system to figure out the best way to train the newb appropriately to play in its space.
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Old 01-08-2011, 11:08 PM   #83
Chris Li
 
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Chris, you have your view, I have mine, it's obvious to me you are a "ki" and "o" sensei must be right "nut", so no amount of arguing the toss to whether he said it or not, really matters......
I'm naturally competitive, I prefer my style of aikido which is grounded in rationality, that being Shodokan, (Shodothug to you) I also infuse my other experience in other arts I feel are practical, and discard that which isn't, no big deal.....
I like/prefer to be rational, I don't believe in woo woo or mystical powers, I don't need a crutch, unless I break my leg......
I don't put humans on pedestals as some sort of deity to be worshipped and idolised, but there is nothing wrong in admiring a person for their accomplishments....
When we see Tohei's wrestling match with the geezer/reporter in that old newsreel, I just thought he didn't look any different to most average Shodokan players, albeit it he was being as kind as he could to him.... Didn't see any mystical "ki" there, so I know where I'm coming from, do you?
Obvious from what? Show me where I said that he was right or where I invoked mystical "ki" even once. You won't be able to, because I didn't.

I don't know Tony, denying something that's a matter of public record sounds pretty "woo woo" to me - and not all that rational.

Best,

Chris

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Old 01-09-2011, 01:25 AM   #84
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Maybe I've already read it.
Good.
Then you know exactly what i am talking about
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:04 AM   #85
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Christopher Li wrote: View Post
Obvious from what? Show me where I said that he was right or where I invoked mystical "ki" even once. You won't be able to, because I didn't.

I don't know Tony, denying something that's a matter of public record sounds pretty "woo woo" to me - and not all that rational.

Best,

Chris
Read my post ........

I don't care what he.......... said!!!!!
I just do what he "did" within my own parameters, that is have my technique tested for real .........

Personally I would not have started "aikido" unless I knew it was practical..... There are few who can actually do that including many of the "shihan" that give themselves that title.....
Most of the aikido I see today is a joke an an insult to the martial arts community as a whole, it's no wonder it is so ridiculed......
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:10 AM   #86
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Most of the aikido I see today is a joke an an insult to the martial arts community as a whole, it's no wonder it is so ridiculed......
Is it ridiculed that much? Most of the ridicule here comes seems to come from only a small group of posters.
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:21 AM   #87
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
Is it ridiculed that much? Most of the ridicule here comes seems to come from only a small group of posters.
That's because so many here are in denial.......
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Old 01-09-2011, 05:36 AM   #88
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
That's because so many here are in denial.......
So by posting ridicule whenever they can, this minority wants to prove to the majority that most aikido is ridiculous?
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:04 AM   #89
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
So by posting ridicule whenever they can, this minority wants to prove to the majority that most aikido is ridiculous?
You have it.....
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Old 01-09-2011, 06:31 AM   #90
Dave de Vos
 
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
You have it.....
I am not a psychologist neither a sociologist, but I think people are not easily convinced by ridicule, especially when they are the target, which could promote hostility.

People are not easily convinced. Hostility makes it even harder.
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:09 AM   #91
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
Good.
Then you know exactly what i am talking about
Not really. What are the historical facts proven by that book?


Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote:
When we see Tohei's wrestling match with the geezer/reporter in that old newsreel, I just thought he didn't look any different to most average Shodokan players,
This doesn't put average shodokaner in a good ligh,
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:29 AM   #92
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Dave de Vos wrote: View Post
I am not a psychologist neither a sociologist, but I think people are not easily convinced by ridicule, especially when they are the target, which could promote hostility.

People are not easily convinced. Hostility makes it even harder.
So does honesty.....
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:30 AM   #93
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not really. What are the historical facts proven by that book?

This doesn't put average shodokaner in a good ligh,
Ssssshhhhh......
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:33 AM   #94
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
So does honesty.....
Excellent answer in so few words.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:38 AM   #95
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

[quote=Henry Ellis;272242]Excellent answer in so few words.

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/[/QUOTE

It's called kaeshi waza in my book Henry.....
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Old 01-09-2011, 07:53 AM   #96
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Personally, I think a well-rounded budo contains aspects of competitive training - within their place. And as been mentioned earlier, there's a period by which you have to learn to "own" the practice before being thrown into competition . . but that should be up to each system to figure out the best way to train the newb appropriately to play in its space.

That's a good analogy...... thankyou....
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:02 AM   #97
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Well, to use an example from the real "internal martial arts" (the "neijia" styles), there is no competition for some years because you can't honestly re-train the body to use internal strength while at the same time you're using your old-style of movement to do techniques, applications, sparring, etc. I have no doubt this was the reason why Ueshiba blocked competitions... it just means that you'll never really learn internal strength.

I personally tend to focus mostly on how to do basic kokyu/jin and ki/body-breath-training for that same reason. Doing dramatic demonstrations or focusing on applications that require internal-strength basics that the students don't really have yet is counter-productive. It's a good debate, but I'll stick with Ueshiba and traditional CMA that say that competition is counterproductive for the reasons I stated.

YMMV

Mike Sigman
I have internal strength...... It didn'y come from woo woo....
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:20 AM   #98
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
Not really. What are the historical facts proven by that book?
Are you implying Roy Suenaka Sensei is a liar?
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:58 AM   #99
graham christian
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

We all know he did condemn it as a sport so all the debates thereafter are to do with 'why?'

This thread has turned into one of those who agree verse those who disagree and thus has become a sport, a competition. All taking up their positions and defending them by attacking others.

There is a sport Aikido and it is called Tomiki. If anyone really wants to do it as a competition then they would do that style.

Maybe if you looked at it from the view of an art that teaches how to overcome the need for competition then you may get a glimpse of what O'Sensei meant.

I understand how people justify the competitave aspects that happen whilst doing Aikido during various techniques and randori etc. and this can do one of two things: It can make them right and thus think competition is all part of it or it can make them realize they need to improve.

I'm sure many of you have got into positions where you have found that if you keep center or if you non-resist or if you move along the Aiki lines or if you do some principle of Aiki then it works perfectly and you experience at that point no competition.

O'Sensei merely wanted you to keep that as the focus of Aikido for if you believe only in competion you will miss half of what he was trying to teach. On the other hand it is good and may I say even normal to find yourself competing but if you have this as the goal then you miss the point of Aikido.

If you think its all about competition then you are deluded, if you think it is all about not competing then you are also deluded.

Aikido is about heading towards that place of harmonious application and contains competition on that path but it is competition that needs to be overcome and thus is self developement.

Many talk about the martial aspect but I don't hear many talking about the Art aspect. When you have developed and gained the skills of something you become competent. Then you progress and and get more and more confident. In the end you can apply those skills at ease, in any situation, and it thus becomes a graceful application and now you are an artist. Now you have reached the art.

Respect to all. G.
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Old 01-09-2011, 09:09 AM   #100
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Aikido as Sport: Did O'Sensei Condemn It?

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
Are you implying Roy Suenaka Sensei is a liar?
I'm implying he could be wrong.

Why don't you provide the relevant paragraphs that prove your claims of Suenaka Sensei being a first hand witness of Ueshiba Morihei fighting challengers?
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