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Old 01-04-2011, 10:30 AM   #26
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Such language! You can't say "SOD" here, get a civil tongue in your head!
Whoops!! So sorry........
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:21 PM   #27
SeiserL
 
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
What happens when they take the knives away....?
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:48 PM   #28
mickeygelum
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Re: Randori training

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....the five-angles of FMA.
We have eight basic angles in Albo Kali Silat.

" Stick trains knife trains hand", as the old saying goes.

Train well,

Mickey
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Old 01-04-2011, 01:19 PM   #29
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Ha ha, That's providing there's one to hand when the knives appear...... if you see it!!
What I witnessed was gang warfare and there was no sign of knives until engagement......
Believe it when I say we got out of there pretty fast before they turned on us matelots!! Being where we shouldn't be....
Yeah, I stitched up quite a few of those gang members during my rotation in the A&E of the largest public hospital in Manila..
treated a Russian sailor too who got stabbed while drinking where he shouldn't be..
It's a good thing you got out..

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:13 PM   #30
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Randori training

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Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Yeah, I stitched up quite a few of those gang members during my rotation in the A&E of the largest public hospital in Manila..
treated a Russian sailor too who got stabbed while drinking where he shouldn't be..
It's a good thing you got out..
I was there 1970, H.M.S. Andromeda, young, brash, brave, but not bloody daft!!
I've never run so bloody fast in all my life !!!!!
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:23 PM   #31
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.
Don't be humble Lynn, it doesn't suit you
I was kinda referring to fists and anything else that came to hand
When the odds are against you, time to withdraw (If you can).... fast!!
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:33 PM   #32
Hellis
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, first we learned with sticks, then knives, then hands. FMA is a complete art.

Either when they take our knives away we are dead (a knife ambush and assassination, never an attack, ends up with one in the hospital and one in the morgue), or our hands become our knives.

A while back, Phong Sensei of Tenshinkai Aikido, did a Black Belt Magazine article on Aikido against the five-angles of FMA. The photos were taking using a live blade. It is interesting on how the marge change.
Hi Lynn

Thank you for reminding me of Phong Sensei.( not east to forget )..He is a most impressive man, I am not often impressed..When we held the Masahilo Nakazono Memorial in Wales in 2007, Phong Sensei and Madam Phong and senior students ```all``` travelled at their own expense from California to honour Nakazono Sensei, Phong Sensei's teacher...
No ribbons, no breathing through his toes, just excellent Aikido.
Please pass on my respects when next you see Phong Sensei.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:05 PM   #33
L. Camejo
 
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Re: Randori training

So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?

Just some random thoughts.

LC

--Mushin Mugamae - No Mind No Posture. He who is possessed by nothing possesses everything.--
http://www.tntaikido.org
http://www.mushinkan.ca
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Old 01-05-2011, 04:26 AM   #34
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?

Just some random thoughts.

LC
I would consider the knife practitioner might have the advantage to some extent as they can be hidden, as swords can be awkward in a closed environment, and are a bit difficult to hide unless you make out you have a gammy leg and have a sword stick.
Wakazashi would be a bit awkward too.....
So a double edged knife is to some extent more dexterous than a sword arm, which would most likely get slashed to bits, up against a knife wielder with skill.....
Just my thoughts too
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:05 AM   #35
SeiserL
 
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Larry Camejo wrote: View Post
So going with the weapons training empty hands analogy. Aikidoka should have arms that work just like swords through tegatana/bokken training right?

Taking the analogy a bit further - who do you think would have the advantage in a knife vs sword fight and how does that apply back to tegatana in Aikido and dealing with edged weapons?
Yes agreed.

They say that AIkido came from kenjutsu (sword arts) so if you move the hands like you cut with a sword, IMHO, your technique becomes very different in a good way.

Knifes vs sword is a matter of distance (maai). At a longer (word length) distance, the sword has it. Bridge and get inside that distance, advantage the shorter blade.

IMHO (and back on topic) always assume that predators run in packs and you are never fighting a single person. Keep the situational awareness and periphery vision active - randori.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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Old 02-03-2011, 11:52 PM   #36
Insane Duane
 
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Re: Randori training

Well I watched the videos and I had a hard time watching them. To me this has no value in regards to self defense. Too many things didn't make sense, maybe because I don't understand. I think this would be counter productive and very dangerous since the fake tanto is essentially forgotten after the initial attack. A very true saying is: you fight like you train.
But hey, if you enjoy it more power to you but be aware that you are creating potentially fatal bad habits.
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Old 02-04-2011, 03:53 AM   #37
ewolput
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Talking Re: Randori training

Quote:
Duane Garvin wrote: View Post
Well I watched the videos and I had a hard time watching them. To me this has no value in regards to self defense. Too many things didn't make sense, maybe because I don't understand. I think this would be counter productive and very dangerous since the fake tanto is essentially forgotten after the initial attack. A very true saying is: you fight like you train.
But hey, if you enjoy it more power to you but be aware that you are creating potentially fatal bad habits.
Yes, this is not selfdefense, it was mentioned already before. The purpose of this kind of training is to find out if a "waza" can be done against a resisting opponent who also have the chance to use a waza. The "tanto" is a part of the "game" with the only purpose to stab in a straight line to the "chudan" level of the body.
In Tomiki Aikido this is not the only method to study, but it seems most of the people only see this facet of the training.
If your goal in training is to be lethal, you can stop training today. You are lethal. Just drink and drive or purchase a weapon. As an old soldier with my chosen weapon, even in my mid fifties, I can be as lethal as the best unarmed UFC Champion. When I am given an automatic weapon with a full magazine and one in the pipe, safety off, I suspect even this old soldier would do pretty well." (Lt. Colonel Dane S. Harden)
I don't know this gentleman but I can understand very well his way of thinking.
A modern Musashi??
Eddy
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Old 02-04-2011, 11:04 AM   #38
Insane Duane
 
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Re: Randori training

If you want to play games that is fine with me. I love playing certain types of games. My only concern here is that this type of game promotes bad habits (i.e. ignoring the knife).

In regards to your quote; for me personally, my main purpose is to protect my family and myself. Killing is easy. With out training I could be killed easily. Heck, I could still be killed easily but at least now I have training that will give some tools to help prevent that from happening. For me it's not about killing but surviving. If I have to kill so I can survive, so be it. May this never have to happen.
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Old 02-04-2011, 04:08 PM   #39
ewolput
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Re: Randori training

Quote:
Duane Garvin wrote: View Post
If you want to play games that is fine with me. I love playing certain types of games. My only concern here is that this type of game promotes bad habits (i.e. ignoring the knife).

In regards to your quote; for me personally, my main purpose is to protect my family and myself. Killing is easy. With out training I could be killed easily. Heck, I could still be killed easily but at least now I have training that will give some tools to help prevent that from happening. For me it's not about killing but surviving. If I have to kill so I can survive, so be it. May this never have to happen.
Just a question : did you ever entered a a shiai with this mock knife according the rules of JAA? The randori in this thread is always regarded as a form of sportive activity. It is never mentioned as a form of selfdefense against a knife.
If you question the selfdefense aspect of Tomiki Aikido, please give more details, ....and not based on what you saw in the shiai applications.
In case of shinai kendo, you can say this is creating bad habits because you are attacking the protected areas of the body and in a real fight you have to attack "maybe" different parts and in shinai kendo you didn't practice.
In case of judo, people are using some strategy which are dangerous in a real fight, so they are creating bad habits?
So if you look at aikido from a selfdefense point of view, you are only see one aspect of this modern martial art. Maybe others likes the sportive side of it, or maybe others like the spirituel elements;
All depends on your personal look at aikido and I believe it is very difficult to find a consensus between the "martial" people or "spirituel" or "sportive" people.
These remarks are not directed to one person, but are more general observations on some critisims of certain training methods.
But i agree with you, shiai tanto randori is not selfdefense against knife.
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Old 02-04-2011, 10:23 PM   #40
Insane Duane
 
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Re: Randori training

Fair enough. I read randori training and assumed "martial" training but quickly realized it was "sportive". So I had a "martial" perspective when viewing it. So my bad in taking this out of context. Best wishes and hope you enjoy your sport!
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