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Old 01-02-2011, 12:05 PM   #76
graham christian
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
As popular as aikiweb is, the number of participants is a small minority of those practicing aikido world wide and the simple answer is that your survey is quite biased. What you are reading is a self-selective sampling. It's only natural those who have questions or concerns would be the ones that would make the effort to find and post on this forum. Those that don't or feel they are getting sufficient answers in their training probably won't be found on here posting about such topics except maybe in response. It's very common for online forums to have the same questions asked over and over in many different threads. That's why FAQs came into being on the internet in the first place.

Since such questions of effectiveness really come down to personal competence, training competence, and teacher competence rather than the art itself, and much to do with assessment of competence is subjective, this makes for never ending online discussion. When you have conflict, nothing is perfect and any human being can be cut down by another on any given day. Your training may lower the possibility but it can't make it zero, so the outcome of any given story really doesn't provide an answer either.

Also there is often a confusion about the differences between self-defense and fighting.
Well put.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:15 PM   #77
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

I think we should end this one and say that aikido taught as it was originally did work for real life scenario's.....
But the way most of it is practised now beggar's belief...... ........
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:25 PM   #78
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I think we should end this one and say that aikido taught as it was originally did work for real life scenario's.....
But the way most of it is practised now beggar's belief...... ........
I take it that you did not get a bunch of coloured ribbons for Christmas ?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:30 PM   #79
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

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Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I take it that you did not get a bunch of coloured ribbons for Christmas ?

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
Did you get the ones I sent you Henry?

Someone sent me some floppy ears, but no fluffy tail........

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-02-2011 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 01-02-2011, 05:35 PM   #80
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Did you get the ones I sent you Henry?
Yes I did !! nearly bloody strangled myself with them, maybe I didn't have the right music, or perhaps I had the lights going the wrong way ??

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:12 PM   #81
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Yes I did !! nearly bloody strangled myself with them, maybe I didn't have the right music, or perhaps I had the lights going the wrong way ??

Henry

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
How about me doing the bunny tussle with some ribbons tied round me whatsit and you do the raving looney ribbon dance with a pair of hognail boots.... reckon we might make a few bob doing a seminar on it......

I'm sure someone could help us with the lights and the disco to go with it.....

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 01-02-2011 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:59 AM   #82
Petlev
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Craig Hocker wrote: View Post
As popular as aikiweb is, the number of participants is a small minority of those practicing aikido world wide and the simple answer is that your survey is quite biased.
I realize that. But I also realize that the people who take learning more seriously would also post here. I could be wrong. None the less, there is no bias involved. I formed an opinion based on reading many, many posts.

Quote:
What you are reading is a self-selective sampling. It's only natural those who have questions or concerns would be the ones that would make the effort to find and post on this forum. Those that don't or feel they are getting sufficient answers in their training probably won't be found on here posting about such topics except maybe in response.
Happening to have studied statistics in order to achieve my degree, I am very familiar with a self-selective bias. But not in the way you you present it here. Like I said above, I would believe that the more serious student would be a member of forums such as these. But like you said in the last part of the quote above, that they would respond to such questions, not ask them, that is where my concern comes from. It is not the newbie asking if Aikido works, it's the shodan who says "no" in response, that I am questioning.

Quote:
Also there is often a confusion about the differences between self-defense and fighting.
I agree, and I also referred to this in my original post.

Last edited by Petlev : 01-03-2011 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:03 AM   #83
Petlev
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
If you were asking those who say it won't work, then yes, it would be a fair question. But you're not. You're asking the members of an aikido forum, who hold a diversity of opinions about whether aikido will "work" and what that means. Call it a quibble, but we've had an awful lot of discussions here go veering off into the weeds due to a failure to define terms.
I am questioning the same forum for which I derived to the conclusion that many long time training Aikidoka say Aikido does not work. So again, is it not a fair question to ask on a forum where people have said it does not work?

Quote:
I think you're wrong, but if what you're getting at is that you didn't intend it to be a loaded question, I have no problem accepting that.
That's fine with me.

Quote:
I think it's a legitimate question, but not when constructed as a strawman. It's fodder for a good discussion if you cite a statement in which so-and-so claims that aikido won't "work" (as defined by...?) because of thus-and-such. it's the open-ended question "Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?" that I have trouble with. I think the only correct answer is, "They don't."
You pretend that my entire first post consisted only of the question of Aikidoka saying it does not work. If you read my whole post, the context of the question should have been very clear. Perhaps I should have clarified myself by adding "Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:33 AM   #84
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

"Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

'Cause we all know they are not doing aikido, but an exercise art derived from it, but "they" haven't quite figured it out yet......
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:50 AM   #85
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
"Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

'Cause we all know they are not doing aikido, but an exercise art derived from it, but "they" haven't quite figured it out yet......
TK Chiba Sensei said to me " So many call their dojos Aikido / Martial Arts clubs, in truth they are little more than social clubs ".

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:54 AM   #86
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Aha Henry, Good morning to you, tripped over any more ribbons of late?
I'm thinking of joining the playboy club....
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:20 AM   #87
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Aha Henry, Good morning to you, tripped over any more ribbons of late?
I'm thinking of joining the playboy club....
I have already given up the ribbons as they are potentially dangerous. I am now trying to light up a 100watt bulb in the palm of my hand, not in the interest of Ki I should add, but more in an attempt to cut my ever increasing electricity bills.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:48 AM   #88
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I have already given up the ribbons as they are potentially dangerous. I am now trying to light up a 100watt bulb in the palm of my hand, not in the interest of Ki I should add, but more in an attempt to cut my ever increasing electricity bills.

Henry Ellis
http://rik-ellis.blogspot.com/
Yes, having some trouble myself, I keep willing them to come on, but nothing happens, maybe I'm not breathing through my toes enough??

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Old 01-03-2011, 07:18 AM   #89
lbb
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
You pretend that my entire first post consisted only of the question of Aikidoka saying it does not work. If you read my whole post, the context of the question should have been very clear. Perhaps I should have clarified myself by adding "Why do Aikiodka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"
Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?
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Old 01-03-2011, 07:37 AM   #90
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?
I would say ``no`` to both questions...

Henry Ellis

http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-04-2011, 09:13 PM   #91
ravenest
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

IMO - becasue instead of looking at it holistically and learning the valuible principles which may improve their life and other martial arts they undertake, they have mistaken its (modern ? ) intent to be a martial arts system of self defence?
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Old 01-05-2011, 11:30 AM   #92
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Michael Wilson wrote: View Post
IMO - becasue instead of looking at it holistically and learning the valuible principles which may improve their life and other martial arts they undertake, they have mistaken its (modern ? ) intent to be a martial arts system of self defence?
Nothing holistic about wanting to learn self defence which aikido is.....
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Old 01-05-2011, 02:29 PM   #93
SteliosPapadakis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects
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Old 01-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #94
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects
Well done Stelios!!!!
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:57 PM   #95
Cyril Landise
 
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

My experience is that Aikido can't be "used" on anyone but yourself. It is a training method, or way, to learn the power of harmonious action. Boxers don't "use" a jump rope in the ring, that doesn't mean that jumping rope is not an effective way to train. These skills can then be taken into life to apply as desired. The best real-life Aikido "street stories" are, to me, when nothing happened.
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Old 01-07-2011, 10:14 PM   #96
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Cyril Landise wrote: View Post
My experience is that Aikido can't be "used" on anyone but yourself. It is a training method, or way, to learn the power of harmonious action. Boxers don't "use" a jump rope in the ring, that doesn't mean that jumping rope is not an effective way to train. These skills can then be taken into life to apply as desired. The best real-life Aikido "street stories" are, to me, when nothing happened.
Then you've been lucky so far..............
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Old 01-08-2011, 04:31 AM   #97
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Then you've been lucky so far..............
There appears to be a lot of ` lucky` people out there.

With reference to the original question, In the 1950s early 60s when Aikido was practised as a martial art. I have no memory of that question ``ever`` being asked, that was a time before Ki ribbons and breathing through your toes, if a student dared to breath from the rear could result in him being sent out of the dojo..We did not understand then that he was releasing his Ki power.
I can understand why the question is asked now

Henry Ellis
http://aikidoarticles.blogspot.com/
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:15 AM   #98
Petlev
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Do you believe that everyone on aikiweb says that aikido doesn't work?

Do you believe that the large majority of people on aikiweb say that aikido doesn't work?
No and no. Irrelivant. Never said everyone did.
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Old 01-08-2011, 08:16 AM   #99
Petlev
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Stelios Papadakis wrote: View Post
"Why do Aikidoka on Aikiweb say Aikido does not work?"

do not know...
i used it at least over three very difficult situations in my life and it worked out fine in all aspects
Yasou file.
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Old 01-08-2011, 12:57 PM   #100
Zach Trent
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Wow-

I was pretty inspired by the first poster to respond...but reading the responses sort of killed my passion a bit, but anyway I'll try.

You really have to think about the context for which you are asking the question.

Who says it isn't working? What does it mean to work?

These are important questions and they highlight your own working assumptions. You have an idea of what it means "to work" for your own life and are thus applying things like distancing, timing, etc. that you derive from training and are hoping that these things "work" for you in a situation that, likely, you have invented in your head.

In which situation does your aikido work? Think about it- you likely have a very specific scenario in mind. You might ask yourself even who is the enemy in your fantasy- how do they respond to you? What do the look like? (or, if you wanna go real deep, what color are they?)

I dunno- maybe not.

The reason I say it doesn't work in a fight is that I don't want to use it in a fight. For many years I had to make excuses that I need Aikido to "work" for this bullshit endram scenario that I had looping in my head.

Now, I see I am doing Aikido because it is a healing exercise that allows me to undo physical trauma I experienced as a kid. Aikido is healing for me, it is not preparing me for a martial situation. I have to be intentional about that because it is a shift from my earlier "karate" way of thinking.

What do you want? Aikido is love, right? Is love getting ready to fight somebody? It is all about what you put into your body and what you put into your mind, but you should be aware of what scenario you are afraid of and which vulnerability you are running away from.

Aikido forces you to feel your vulnerabilities and to become intimate with them- not to pretend they aren't there. No one wants to be vulnerable in front of someone, so we go to great lengths to tell ourselves we aren't- we spend a lot of money, time, and energy convincing ourselves that we are protected from the intentions of others.

Why doesn't Aikido work? How do you want it to work? On whom? Live the scenario where you are the hero saving someone...but I hope it never happens for you.

Of course- the natural reaction is "this is fecking stupid- don't do a martial art that doesn't work man you are fecking stupid!" I don't want it to work on anyone- that is why it doesn't work. It is an exercise that lets me let enemies and friends get close to me- I'm finally not preoccupied with my death or my vulnerability. For me it is a much better way to live than to always be ready to kill somebody.

Am I going to let someone stab me, or rape me? I doubt it But I'll deal with that if it comes up.

Last night I got attacked by some dudes big ole dog- the dog thought he was protecting his owner because his owner was scavenging for food and I got a little to close to the food source. The dog jumped up to snag my arm- I stepped back, jerking my sweater out his mouth. I was in hamni, looking at the dog and waiting.Pretty weird zanshin moment there. I surprised myself by being calm and curious as to what was going to happen.

The guy grabs his dog and starts shouting at him. I kept on walking. To me this was my aikido- I protected myself but did not go on and on being pissed off at this owner- in fact I was pretty happy to see how my body reacted to this stress. The dog thought he was doing a good thing, but a year ago I would have tore into the owner about being a better this and that blah blah blah.

I didn't have that scenario in my head when I started doing martial arts- but the scenarios I did have were all bullshit scenarios I made up based on my own vulnerabilities and fear of the "other".

This is to say- meditate on whom you want your aikido to work- when was the last time you fought this person/group of people. Can you let go of this fantasy of getting ready to fight and simply live your life?
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