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Old 12-29-2010, 02:05 PM   #26
lbb
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......
It's a not-so-classical reference to a recent example of the intellectually dishonest tactic of closing down the dialogue by "asking" loaded, assumptive questions. The joke's a lot less funny when you have to explain it, alas, but it is a US-centric reference, so...
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:48 PM   #27
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?
My guess, these days, is that it has to do with the fact that we often have different models in our mind when we're talking about things like "working for self-defense." I think a lot of the issue also has to do with a matter of emphasis. If you want to learn how to deal with good punching dynamics, for example, boxing is probably better suited, generally speaking. That isn't to say one can't find an Aikido dojo that teaches very good ways to deal with very good punches. It's a generalization, which always falls apart at some point...even if it's 99% true, you still have to consider that 1%.
Case in point is that somewhat common argument that BJJ (the ground-fighting stuff, at any rate) is better suited at fighting, but I have a small number of examples from growing up where frankly as soon as you take someone to the ground and appear to be winning in ANY way at all, their friends will come up and stomp you. In going to the ground you give up mobility, which to my mind, is a very important aspect of good self-defense.
I try to think of how different things apply across the board. I believe I have learned about self-defense-related things from stuff like soccer, skiing, and chess, so i tend to take the view that most things can relate to most other things with the proper creativity and application.
...Off to go sleding with the wee ones!
Take care folks!
Matt

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:51 PM   #28
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Those who "think" about it are those that hesitate, which is a no go area!!!!.....
Hesitation in a no choice scenario is and can be lethal....
One of my my teachers who is Japanese stayed here for three years while studying English from 1979 - 1982. At that time he was a 4th Dan and was also All Japan Aikido Association tanto champion the previous year.
He still visits me me every year, when here as in his role as a teacher of English on the cultural visits, his and other schools do from Tokyo.
He is a very kind, considerate, gentle man and I am proud to call him my friend.....
He was accosted on the London Underground by a bunch of dysfunctional's and took them out in very quick succession....one ran off shouting kung fu, kung fu..... leg it....!!!!
He is also of shodo thuggery lineage and his favourite saying is.... Wait for it...... Don't think..... DO!!!
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Old 12-29-2010, 06:21 PM   #29
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Don't think..... DO!!!
A lesson I learned from skiing, fittingly enough. That's not to say thinking isn't useful of course, but when you're on a slippery slope there isn't much time to think, particularly when suddenly the nice line you planned out at the top o' the hill isn't where your skis are any more.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-29-2010, 09:54 PM   #30
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
It's a not-so-classical reference to a recent example of the intellectually dishonest tactic of closing down the dialogue by "asking" loaded, assumptive questions. The joke's a lot less funny when you have to explain it, alas, but it is a US-centric reference, so...
I believe the whole statement is "Why do you hate freedom, motherhood and apple pie?!"

But yeah, it's baiting.
Actually, I sort of avoided this thread until now because the subject seems like a giant tackle-box.

MM
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Old 12-30-2010, 01:29 AM   #31
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?
Because some want to shape Aikido to fit what they want it to be instead of letting Aikido shape them.

David
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Old 12-30-2010, 02:36 AM   #32
Randall Lim
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?
Aikido is not fighting. Neither is it FOR fighting. All those Aikido techniques that we do are just exercises to develop our Ki-harmony & Ki-connection with a partner, as well as our own Ki-projection.

With these 3 elements mastered, techniques should be modified for martial effectiveness.

However, without them being mastered, no Aikido technique will work, because they are just exercises to develop the 3 elements.
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:01 AM   #33
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Randall Lim wrote: View Post
Aikido is not fighting. Neither is it FOR fighting. All those Aikido techniques that we do are just exercises to develop our Ki-harmony & Ki-connection with a partner, as well as our own Ki-projection.

With these 3 elements mastered, techniques should be modified for martial effectiveness.

However, without them being mastered, no Aikido technique will work, because they are just exercises to develop the 3 elements.
Therefore the "aikido" you practice is not martial, but an exercise system developed from a "martial art"
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:43 AM   #34
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

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Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Therefore the "aikido" you practice is not martial, but an exercise system developed from a "martial art"
I didn't know that

Henry Ellis

http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:50 AM   #35
Lyle Bogin
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

I can dig the idea that there are faster ways to get to the point where you can "defend yourself", but overall I think that aikidoka are convinced aikido isn't good for self defense because they either still suck or are afraid of failure.

"The martial arts progress from the complex to the simple."
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:55 AM   #36
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?
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Old 12-30-2010, 09:58 AM   #37
CitoMaramba
 
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

From The Life of O-Sensei, Morihei Ueshiba - Part 3
Quote:
Rinjiro Shirata, full of talent, was considered a prodigy and admired as the pride of Kobukan. A few episodes from his life may show the temperament of the deshi of that time. He knocked on the gate of the Master in 1933 and studied for five years, until he departed for the front lines with the army. Those were the most gallant days of the Kobukan.

In 1934, one year after entering, he was dispatched to the Okayama Branch of the Budo Enhancement Association with fellow deshi Mr. Hashimoto. They were challenged to a match by two locals who were boastful of their abilities. Shirata declined solidly saying, "There is no competition in Aikido. A match means killing each other. Moreover it is the principle of 'Aiki Budo' not to fight." They wouldn't listen to him. So he stood up from necessity and threw one of them and pinned his hands. He then joked, "You see? Can you resist the world of non-resistance?"

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:02 AM   #38
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?
I average around two to three a year.......
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #39
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
I didn't know that

Henry Ellis

http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
Henry,

If I look at aikido as a "martial art", Then I would practice it as a martial art.... The health, harmony, exercise, connection, call it what you will is a by product emanating from the practice of that "martial art"

Am I making sense here.....?

Or am I being too pragmatic?

Tony
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:14 AM   #40
kewms
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I average around two to three a year.......
You're not average. I suspect the average is more like 2-3 or fewer in a lifetime.

Which is probably why the topic comes up so often. Most people have little or no experience with actual self-defense situations, so they spend a lot of time theorizing. People (like yourself) who encounter such situations routinely have already done whatever they need to in order to make sure they are prepared.

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 12-30-2010 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:32 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
Because some want to shape Aikido to fit what they want it to be instead of letting Aikido shape them.

David
To me David, aikido can fit all, depending on how you adapt it to your personality, genetics and physical make up.....
You make of it what you will, to me it is not a religion.
I am not religious, only in my practice, which is not uncompromising, it does change on every practice as no two waza are ever the same, but all the more for finding the best way for me....
Waza to me must be simple, effective, and work in a real scenario, if not, try, try again and only discard it after exhaustive trial .....
If it works for someone else? Yes teach it, but also admit it doesn't work for me....
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:36 AM   #42
mickeygelum
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?
Every Cop, Corrections Officer, Prison Guard, EMS, TRT/SRT/SRU team member, who takes thier training seriously...just a few, on a daily basis, for years and years.

Pick any high crime area, where serious martial artist of the Aikido nature live and work, and add them to the list....just a few, on a daily basis, for years and years.

....you do the F%^&*G math.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:41 AM   #43
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Henry,

If I look at aikido as a "martial art", Then I would practice it as a martial art.... The health, harmony, exercise, connection, call it what you will is a by product emanating from the practice of that "martial art"

Am I making sense here.....?

Or am I being too pragmatic?

Tony
In the 1950s K Abbe ~ T Abe ~ M Nakazono and others told us we were learning a martial art, as you say the rest is a by product..
If they had told me I was learning an exercise, I would have left the dojo for a much less painful gym.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:42 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
You're not average. I suspect the average is more like 2-3 or fewer in a lifetime.

Which is probably why the topic comes up so often. Most people have little or no experience with actual self-defense situations, so they spend a lot of time theorizing. People (like yourself) who encounter such situations routinely have already done whatever they need to in order to make sure they are prepared.

Katherine
Katherine, it goes with the job in my case, which to those in the know is very vulnerable..... But it pays the bills....

I would say you are probably right for most that are not in any way serving the public in law enforcement etc. But there are occupations such as mine that are invisible to most who never really think about these things, including the people who authorise and issue licences for us to operate..... the police, cabbies, door men, see it all and nothing is ever mentioned unless it hits the "front page"

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-30-2010 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:45 AM   #45
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
In the 1950s K Abbe ~ T Abe ~ M Nakazono and others told us we were learning a martial art, as you say the rest is a by product..
If they had told me I was learning an exercise, I would have left the dojo for a much less painful gym.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
Henry,

Thanks for that reply, Somehow thought I got my knickers in a "twist"

Tony
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Old 12-30-2010, 10:57 AM   #46
lbb
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
As an after thought dear Mary..... what's it like to suck?
Wow. That's the rudest thing anyone's said to me in some time.

Into the killfile you go.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:01 AM   #47
lbb
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
....you do the F%^&*G math.
And you get a civil tongue in your head. I asked a reasonable question, you can provide a civil answer -- or not answer at all, if you don't want to! "do the F%^&*G math", if I were to invent an answer that would prove my point I couldn't have come up with a better one! Not that you provided numbers, but if you had, the so-called "math" would show that the experience isn't typical -- my point exactly.

*plonk* to you too.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:11 AM   #48
Janet Rosen
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Folks, please stay civil.... thank you....
Back to thread....Experiences, needs and expectations will naturally vary based on individual's lives. The 40 year old law enforcement professional will have different scenarios and risks than the 20-something guy who frequents biker bars or the 60 year old woman who doesn't live in the worst neighborhood in town.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:12 AM   #49
Hellis
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
And how many aikidoka who don't "still suck" are really in any position to know if their aikido is any good for self-defense? Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?
Hi Mary

I don't think it is a matter of how many " so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis "
Just the one encounter can be life changing for many....

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:36 AM   #50
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Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Just how many so-called "self-defense" situations is the average not-sucky aikidoka encountering on a daily or even yearly basis?
The honest answer is, not very many.
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