Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-29-2010, 02:48 AM   #1
Petlev
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 03:20 AM   #2
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

It has worked for me on most occasions where I have had to use it, I just adapted it, which I can tell you now is not pretty at all, but rather brutish, which I am not proud of, but it saved my skin on more than a couple of rather nasty situations...
Doesn't mean to say I got away completely unscathed, but it meant I survived and only had to get a couple of stitches here and there, which meant I was able to carry on working the next day, albeit I didn't look so pretty....

Those that think they will do the fantastic looking waza in the dojo or videos that's all for show and bugger all else..... Believe it!!!!

If you are that worried about it take up the proper Shodo thuggery, or go to a club that deals with doing the business and stop fooling yourself and playing with aiki bunnies....
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 03:41 AM   #3
Petlev
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 19
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
It has worked for me on most occasions where I have had to use it, I just adapted it, which I can tell you now is not pretty at all, but rather brutish, which I am not proud of, but it saved my skin on more than a couple of rather nasty situations...
Doesn't mean to say I got away completely unscathed, but it meant I survived and only had to get a couple of stitches here and there, which meant I was able to carry on working the next day, albeit I didn't look so pretty....

Those that think they will do the fantastic looking waza in the dojo or videos that's all for show and bugger all else..... Believe it!!!!

If you are that worried about it take up the proper Shodo thuggery, or go to a club that deals with doing the business and stop fooling yourself and playing with aiki bunnies....
Well, that's the thing..I'm not worried nor am I fooling myself. I know the moves won't be perfect (like I said) especially for beginners, but that does not mean that what you learn, and all the practice won't help you in a real situation. It doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work, or the concepts and principles don't work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 03:50 AM   #4
graham christian
Dojo: golden center aikido-highgate
Location: london
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,697
England
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
I have read hundreds of pages of threads over the last few weeks here on Aikiweb, and have noticed many threads concerning the effectiveness Aikido on the street, or against a boxer, or against a BJJ/MMA person, etc. I have also noticed Aikidoka of all levels claiming it isn't effective, or "if you're taking Aikido for self defense, you are looking in the wrong place", etc. My question is why? I mean we have many people who have never even stepped into a dojo who knock it's martial effectiveness, but why do Aikidoka who have put many hours in training, also agree?

Even if you can not pull of a certain technique very easy, things you learn like footwork, tai sabaki, movement, parrying, etc. all will help you in a real confrontation against anyone, let alone some untrained thug on the street. For instance, there are a few questions concerning Aikido versus a jab of a boxer. Why do you have to do anything but get out of the way of a jab? Is that not defense? Practicing techniques over and over has begun to make me quicker in my movements to avoid getting hit, this is something that will help you against anyone. Keep moving and buy your time until they do something to slip up, and then you make your move. Even getting out of the way with a tenkan can get you in position for a rear choke.

Also, who really cares if Aikido works in a fight. We are not training to "fight" but training to defend ourselves and our families. I used to train in a form of Kung Fu that was pretty straight to the point (I really don't remember it, I stopped about 8 years ago). One time a person I did not really like, and basically could not stand (thought he was a tough guy) started egging me on to show him what I learned in my "Kung Fu" using mocking words, thought it was a joke. He got in my face I moved my arms a little bit (think Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon, noises and all) then kicked him in his nuts, and he went down. Now realistically, you can't do that in a "fight", so the real effectiveness of what you can do won't show through in a fight, unless it's pure self defense.

It could be that I have a little background in another art and that I also have seen an Aikidoka (now sandan, then 3rd, or 2nd Kyu) effectively use Aikido in a self defense situation, twice. That was what got me looking at Aikido back then. It took me 15 years or so to finally start. I also saw a pro boxer who once held two belts get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. In high school, 9th grade, I saw a 3rd degree "black belt" in TKD also get his butt handed to him by a nobody trained in nothing. The former (Aikidoka) were pure self defense situations, while the latter two were just fights. They tried to use their training, but the no rules format didn't work out to well for them.

So please, tell me again..why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work for self defense?
Hi Pete, nice to meet you.

I think a little differenciation is needed here. When Aikidoka say that Aikido doesn't work against a boxer etc. I think they have a personal experience where they came unstuck and are blaming, yes blaming Aikido.

To me these people have not understood Aikido and have thus not applied it in real situations. It always used to surprise me when I used to go to watch martial arts competitions when I see one person trained in praying mantis versus another person trained in jeet kun do enter the ring and when the bell goes they fight like boxers with a few kics here and there. Their training goes out of the window and they just fight.

People on this forum have told me they don't think I emphsize the martial part of this martial art in my Aikido and yet I have probably been in more real life situations which I have handled with Aikido than they have. Only the other night I was helping my friend who runs a pub on christmas eve. Whilst collecting empty glasses outside a row started so I put the glasses down and obseved, relaxed, and noticed it was three against one and suddenly the big one out of the three smashed a glass over the victims head. Aikido took over, no thinking, just motion. I was straight into the center of the fight, with tegatana I had knocked the remaining glass out of the attackers hand and tok his head up from under the chin with my other hand and the only thing which stopped him flying backwards was the fact that the glassed man was hanging on to him.

Attention was out on the other two and I'm sure they were all shocked as I told the victim to stand behind me. They ran off.

You see the matial part of my Aikido is keeping to the principles of motion, the principles of center, the principles of weight underside and koshi, the principles of zan shin etc. This is true discipline and the true martial side of Aikido. It is nothing to do with fighting.

So I would say to you that when you here these statements from Aikidoka know they do not yet know Aikido and are trapped in their own fear. Plus remember 'empty barrels make the most noise.'

A good tai-sabake ends most fights but many may not even know the truth of this for they see tai-sabake as some kind of avoidance. The ones who are confident are usually quiet and neither boast how great Aikido is or complain how useless it is for they have nothing to prove.

You observations above are quite true so already you know more than quite a few.

Happy new year. G.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 04:06 AM   #5
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Pete Lev wrote: View Post
Well, that's the thing..I'm not worried nor am I fooling myself. I know the moves won't be perfect (like I said) especially for beginners, but that does not mean that what you learn, and all the practice won't help you in a real situation. It doesn't mean Aikido doesn't work, or the concepts and principles don't work.
Go out and pick on a couple of nasty dysfuntionals you'll soon find out Just make sure you don't get caught or end up in court!!
That's where the real practice comes in, and no it won't work for the complete novice, of course not!!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 05:02 AM   #6
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,715
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

You fight the way you train.

IMHO, if you look at how most people train you will see why their Aikido does not work. Saying Aikido doesn't work is only a personal disclosure about their training.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 06:52 AM   #7
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Go out and pick on a couple of nasty dysfuntionals you'll soon find out Just make sure you don't get caught or end up in court!!
That's where the real practice comes in, and no it won't work for the complete novice, of course not!!
There is no need to go out and pick on a couple of `dysfunctuals ` , the chances are they are already waiting for you somewhere, sometime. sooner or later.
In a truly hostile situation there is a need to be able to adapt, simply because the guy in the street doesn't know that he is supposed to harmonise with you. Aikido techniques are no longer pretty when done outside the dojo. The guy in the street does not know how to breakfall. I have found the techniques of Aikido to be very effective.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Hellis : 12-29-2010 at 06:53 AM. Reason: error
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 07:08 AM   #8
Richard Stevens
Location: Indianapolis
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 165
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

I've always been a big believer that if you can perform a technique in training perfectly and gracefully, if you had to use it in a confrontation your chances of it actually working increase dramatically.

While I'm not an Aikidoka (I train in a branch of Hakko-Ryu) I've been forced to use what I've learned after being attacked while with my 2 year old son. What I realized after the incident is that although the technique I used was "sloppy" it was very effective in ending the situation quickly without anyone being seriously injured. If I had not been training, it would likely have turned into a wrestling match and who knows what would have happened.

I think the effectiveness of an Aikidoka "on the street" comes down to their mentality and how they train.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 08:26 AM   #9
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

I'm in with what Lynn said.

Most people don't even train with much resistance, much less any level of serious intent. I've had to use aikido to defend myself twice and it served me well. It's all about what you put into it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 08:53 AM   #10
Brett Charvat
Location: Pullman, WA
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 64
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 09:03 AM   #11
Cliff Judge
Dojo: Aikido Shobukan Dojo
Location: Columbia, MD
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 976
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Because it doesn't. It never has, and it never will. I tried for years, then I finally caved in and bought myself a Weber grill. Now my steaks are perfect every time.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 09:40 AM   #12
mickeygelum
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
mickeygelum's Avatar
Dojo: Warren Budokan, Ohio USA
Location: Youngstown, Ohio
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 502
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?
Huh?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 09:55 AM   #13
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 860
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Brett Charvat wrote: View Post
"Shodo thuggery?" Does that involve beating people up with brushes and inkstones?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 10:21 AM   #14
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
There is no need to go out and pick on a couple of `dysfunctuals ` , the chances are they are already waiting for you somewhere, sometime. sooner or later.
In a truly hostile situation there is a need to be able to adapt, simply because the guy in the street doesn't know that he is supposed to harmonise with you. Aikido techniques are no longer pretty when done outside the dojo. The guy in the street does not know how to breakfall. I have found the techniques of Aikido to be very effective.

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
Henry,

I was referring to certain Shihan that have done that.... sshhhh!!

I get it whether I want it or not..... Just the territory I work in, but I am developing a keen sixth sense, which I use more often now due to experience (and age!!)

Tony
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 10:22 AM   #15
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 993
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Graham Christian wrote: View Post
A good tai-sabake ends most fights but many may not even know the truth of this for they see tai-sabake as some kind of avoidance. The ones who are confident are usually quiet and neither boast how great Aikido is or complain how useless it is for they have nothing to prove.
This is very true.

Confidence also tends to discourage many potential attackers, all by itself. If a fight never starts, you never know how it would have ended. There's a good chance that the people most likely to get in fights are also the people least likely to be able to use their aikido effectively.

*shrug* The more I train, the less interesting the "does it work" question becomes. I've personally had to use the Look of Death (tm) a couple of times, but nothing beyond that.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 10:28 AM   #16
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
No, it's how many of the aiki bunnies keep referring to us....

Shodo thugs?

We aren't really..... Honestly......

Alex be'ave......
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 10:36 AM   #17
Don Nordin
Dojo: Aikibudokan Houston TX
Location: Houston Texas
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 41
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Pete,

I think you hit the nail on the head, all the benefits you pointed out about distance timing, speed of movement, are all advantages that an Aikido player has over "untrained" people. So from a self defense viewpoint there is no question in my mind that Aikido is effective. If a person had no formal MA training and then took Aikido for one month they would be better prepared than they were a month before.
I think what get's people discouraged is the time it takes to get really proficent in the art. They see high level players and think I cant do that so my Aikido is not effective. However as you pointed out if you learn to get out of the way, you diffused half of the problem. The other thing people forget is that unless they train for a long time they may not react as they expect in an emergency.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 12:02 PM   #18
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
Henry,

I was referring to certain Shihan that have done that.... sshhhh!!

I get it whether I want it or not..... Just the territory I work in, but I am developing a keen sixth sense, which I use more often now due to experience (and age!!)

Tony
Tony

A few years ago a 6th dan in Aikido, I was told he had `nice` Aikido movement until he was down his high street, where he had a problem with a sixteen year old boy, the boy levelled the 6th dan.
A most unpleasant reality.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 12:04 PM   #19
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,805
United_States
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

"Why do you hate freedom?"

Yay for loaded questions.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 12:59 PM   #20
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post
Tony

A few years ago a 6th dan in Aikido, I was told he had `nice` Aikido movement until he was down his high street, where he had a problem with a sixteen year old boy, the boy levelled the 6th dan.
A most unpleasant reality.

Henry
Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com
Henry,

Seen and met few of them myself, told me I was brutal to my students and I shouldn't be teaching "aikido"......
I replied a realist, and I don't like wasting peoples time.
Personally I think I'm quite gentle to my students. Most have become good Dan grades (the few) and never complained about the aiki they were practising (well not to me personally anyway), except my wife who once said, I was getting soft in my mid life. You never used to be like this when I (she) was training for Dan grade!!!! Wouldn't get away with it today I fear, she said "Yeah that's true"!!!
I have never had a lot of students, the most I think has been about 20 at one given time.... Quality as opposed to quantity is my little motto.....

Tony

Last edited by Tony Wagstaffe : 12-29-2010 at 01:02 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:06 PM   #21
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Jason Casteel wrote: View Post
I'm in with what Lynn said.

Most people don't even train with much resistance, much less any level of serious intent. I've had to use aikido to defend myself twice and it served me well. It's all about what you put into it.
Ditto......
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:13 PM   #22
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Michael Gelum wrote: View Post
Huh?
Shodo said was' wrong with ink stones and brushes?
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:14 PM   #23
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
"Why do you hate freedom?"
I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......

Last edited by akiy : 12-29-2010 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:22 PM   #24
Hellis
Dojo: Ellis Schools of Traditional Aikido
Location: Bracknell
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 597
England
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Attilio Anthony John Wagstaffe wrote: View Post
I love my freedom 'cause I have fought for it?......
When you fight for freedom...... will the Plastic Samurai and Aiki Bunny stand either side of you ?

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/

Last edited by akiy : 12-29-2010 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-29-2010, 01:43 PM   #25
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Why do Aikidoka say Aikido does not work?

Quote:
Henry Ellis wrote: View Post

When you fight for freedom...... will the Plastic Samurai and Aiki Bunny stand either side of you ?

Henry Ellis
http://tadashi-abe.blogspot.com/
Never saw any when I did, only me and those who had to.... Recent past......All tend to stand and watch and face down when you look 'em in the eye..... The nothing to do with me syndrome.....

Last edited by akiy : 12-29-2010 at 02:12 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tag
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
If you could buy just ONE book about Aikido techniques, what would it be? Karol Kowalczyk Techniques 45 01-31-2014 11:35 PM
Yoshinkai - Beyond the "Hard Style" Label Susan Dalton Columns 8 11-16-2011 06:53 AM
Why do some people hate Aikido? Guilty Spark General 609 12-29-2010 04:29 AM
My Experiences in Cross Training MMA with Aikido Reuben General 122 02-10-2010 04:39 PM
For Ted Ehara - Boundary of your aikido? billybob General 123 12-18-2006 04:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:56 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate