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Old 12-02-2010, 09:04 PM   #26
lbb
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Re: Talent & Aikido

In the years before he became a bestselling author, back when he was still pretty hungry, Stephen King wrote a great book on the horror genre called Danse Macabre. It's a great read if you're interested in the main subject, but I remember it most for a digression on the subject of writing, and the distinction between talent and ability. King defined talent as what you're born with, your inherent potential, and ability as what you can actually do. To compare talent to ability, he used the analogy of a knife, and said (my paraphrase) "Nobody was ever born with a sharp knife. Some people are born with an almighty big knife, but nobody is born with a sharp knife."

A little sharp knife beats a big dull knife every time, and a knife only gets sharp one way: by honing it.
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:56 PM   #27
Keith Larman
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Not wanting to get into the nitty-gritty as I'm getting expert-shy on some topics, in skills measurement/testing/psychometrics we make the distinction between aptitude and proficiency. Aptitude loosely defined meaning inherent ability for some task as contrasted with proficiency as technical competence in a task. One can have a great aptitude with no proficiency (no training yet). One can develop great proficiency even without great aptitude (lots of hard work).

Also, many also confuse early success with high aptitude. Often early success does not correlate well with long term success. Aptitude in most non-trivial things are usually multiple factor things and quite complex once you start breaking them down into parts. So someone may find some early aspects easy and as a result succeed at initial levels. However, they can never get over other hurdles that are necessary to get beyond those early levels of success.

Back when I worked in psychometrics writing tests and doing studies of job performance those long term guys who'd say they were never the best initially in fact showed a fantastic balance of the aptitudes necessary for the task. Those who "flared out early" often showed very high aptitude for some aspects, but were sorely lacking in others. Hence the eventual failure.

So you slow guys shouldn't sell yourselves short. In most non-trivial areas the slow guys *are* the ones with the most aptitude. It just doesn't always happen the way you'd expect...

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Old 12-02-2010, 11:10 PM   #28
tlk52
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Re: Talent & Aikido

some random thoughts:

teaching, technique, and ability to apply technique seem to me to be 3 separate talents.

It seems to me difficult and complicated to talk about this in Aikido. what is talent in Aikido? Aikido is non-competitive so how would talent manifest itself?

I do think that within a martial context, that talent shows itself most clearly in actual fighting.

In competitive martial arts and other sports, many champions don't necessarily have well rounded technique, they have a few techniques that they're really good at, combined with the superior natural ability to apply the techniques, to read the other person's movement and timing...

but great performers don't always make great teachers and great coaches are not necessarily great performers. teachers need to be fairly strong with the whole curriculum, and have social skills.

... someone with more talent will develop greater proficiency with the same amount of practice.

Talent seems more the innate proclivity to be able to absorb and apply that technique, to physically understand quickly, to make it live. some people just have a greater sensitivity to moving their own body, moving with another person. better timing, manipulating Ma-Ai, etc..

... to reach a very high level it does seem to be necessary at some point for a student to work intensively. ie: 20-30 hours a week for 5-6 + years

I'm a musician so maybe that's influencing my thinking about this stuff... ie; who's a greater musician, Thelonius Monk, or the batch of pianists that got M.A.'s at Julliard this year, all of whom have more technique than T. monk.

I'm not really arguing for a particular point of view here I just think that the discussion might have been leaving these kinds of complications out because they're difficult.

Aikido is a Koan
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:17 PM   #29
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Re: Talent & Aikido

I can't see much to be gained by making judgments or comparisons on individual aptitudes or performances in aikido. It's like you get 100 people to jump into a swimming pool. Those who are good swimmers will probably boogie to the deep end, while those with little swimming ability will probably hang out in the shallows (at least until they get good enough to venture outward). But just about everybody will have a good time, and most will not care too much about what the others are doing. All that's really important is that nobody drowns...
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:30 PM   #30
Keith Larman
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Re: Talent & Aikido

In the end all that matters is who are the old farts who are still treading water 40 years later...

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Old 12-02-2010, 11:33 PM   #31
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Quote:
Toby Kasavan wrote: View Post
I'm a musician so maybe that's influencing my thinking about this stuff... ie; who's a greater musician, Thelonius Monk, or the batch of pianists that got M.A.'s at Julliard this year, all of whom have more technique than T. monk.
Of all the people in the 1935-1939 classes at Julliard, how many are we still listening to today, as either composers or performers?

(Monk was born in 1917, so I'm guessing those classes roughly contain his contemporaries.)

Although that also gets into the technique and/vs. creativity question, which may be too far into the weeds for this thread.

Katherine
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:02 AM   #32
Benjamin Mehner
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Not wanting to get into the nitty-gritty as I'm getting expert-shy on some topics, in skills measurement/testing/psychometrics we make the distinction between aptitude and proficiency. Aptitude loosely defined meaning inherent ability for some task as contrasted with proficiency as technical competence in a task. One can have a great aptitude with no proficiency (no training yet). One can develop great proficiency even without great aptitude (lots of hard work).

Also, many also confuse early success with high aptitude. Often early success does not correlate well with long term success. Aptitude in most non-trivial things are usually multiple factor things and quite complex once you start breaking them down into parts. So someone may find some early aspects easy and as a result succeed at initial levels. However, they can never get over other hurdles that are necessary to get beyond those early levels of success.

Back when I worked in psychometrics writing tests and doing studies of job performance those long term guys who'd say they were never the best initially in fact showed a fantastic balance of the aptitudes necessary for the task. Those who "flared out early" often showed very high aptitude for some aspects, but were sorely lacking in others. Hence the eventual failure.

So you slow guys shouldn't sell yourselves short. In most non-trivial areas the slow guys *are* the ones with the most aptitude. It just doesn't always happen the way you'd expect...
This reminds me of something I heard on NPR. There was some kind of expert on the air who explained that those that believe they have a natural ability for something often get frustrated by their perceived lack of progress and give up, while those that believe that they have to struggle for every ounce of skill tend to be the ones that succeed because they believe that success will only come through perseverance.

"Slow and steady wins the race".

Let silence be my mantra.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:48 AM   #33
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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...who explained that those that believe they have a natural ability for something often get frustrated by their perceived lack of progress and give up, while those that believe that they have to struggle for every ounce of skill tend to be the ones that succeed because they believe that success will only come through perseverance.
Some people I have encountered believe talent is required in the first place to be able to do certain things [e.g. Aikido] and do not give it a fair chance. The biggest obstacle only exists in the mind.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:13 AM   #34
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Thoughtful and fascinating thread.

I work in a sports science department of a university and as such are associated with elite athletes in a variety of sports.

Success (by whatever measure) is only acheived by the application of talent. In other words unless even extremely gifted individuals apply themselves to training in a meaningful way then they will never realise ther full potential.

There is some discusiion about the 10,000 hour rule with some psychologists suggesting that we should really think in terms of repetitions rather than hours.

My main field is remedial therapy and exercise and again some research suggests that only a few hundred repititions may be needed provided that anhy errors are corrected immedialtly, an often friustrating process.

From my experience as both a therapist and Aikido/Iai-do teacher it is those individuals who strive for perfection; ask others to observe and criticise them and (most importantly) take that advice make the most progress both in the long and short-term. these individuals usually also describe themeselves as having less talent than other individuals - although this is often not the perception of outside observers.

perhaps it is no coincidence that the "top" performers in any skill based sporting activity are also the most self-critical and open-minded.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:39 AM   #35
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Re: Talent & Aikido

During a conversation I had with Chiba Sensei I asked him the question :In his opinion who is more likely to stay with Aikido , a guy who is naturally talented or a guy who is clumsy , ungainly and a slow learner?
Chiba Sensei stated that in his opinion and experience the slow/ungainly guy was the more likely person to continue the practice of the art.
Maybe the ungainly guy as opposed to the natural has more motivation /need to master the art?Sometimes if things come easy for you you do not really appreciate them.
Success in anything is 10% inspiration 90 % perspiration as the wise men state.
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Old 12-03-2010, 07:27 AM   #36
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Also, many also confuse early success with high aptitude. Often early success does not correlate well with long term success. Aptitude in most non-trivial things are usually multiple factor things and quite complex once you start breaking them down into parts. So someone may find some early aspects easy and as a result succeed at initial levels. However, they can never get over other hurdles that are necessary to get beyond those early levels of success.

Back when I worked in psychometrics writing tests and doing studies of job performance those long term guys who'd say they were never the best initially in fact showed a fantastic balance of the aptitudes necessary for the task. Those who "flared out early" often showed very high aptitude for some aspects, but were sorely lacking in others. Hence the eventual failure.
Now that really is fascinating. It's a very different way of thinking than the way I'd been thinking of talent, as a sort of monolithic thing: you've got a "talent" for aikido or music or whatever, but it's all of one piece. What you say makes a lot more sense, though -- if I understand it correctly, that your natural aptitude for something like aikido is actually a composite of your natural aptitude for eye-hand coordination, for balance, for certain kinds of visualization, etc. I think that model does a better job of explaining not just the early success and ease of some people, but also why those who struggle initially usually start to experience breakthroughs at some point -- not always dramatic and sharply defined ones, but it seems to be a common experience. I don't think I have known any "long term guy" who just struggled constantly -- the struggle never goes away completely, but everyone I know who stays with it has these times when things seem to be falling into place. This fits well with the idea of aptitude for aikido being a composite of many aptitudes, not all of which kick in on the first day you step onto the mat.
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Old 12-03-2010, 08:03 AM   #37
grondahl
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Re: Talent & Aikido

This is a intresting thread. The main theme has gone from; talent (as in aptitude etc) is not that important compared to the quality of training to talent is bad, they never stay anyway, lets focus on the clumsy ones.

A good training/learning environment should be able to nurse the growth of both those with an high aptitude and those who will take longer time to excel. Maybe the way aikido training normally is set up is geared towards the slower ones?
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:05 AM   #38
Keith Larman
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
Now that really is fascinating. It's a very different way of thinking than the way I'd been thinking of talent, as a sort of monolithic thing: you've got a "talent" for aikido or music or whatever, but it's all of one piece. What you say makes a lot more sense, though -- if I understand it correctly, that your natural aptitude for something like aikido is actually a composite of your natural aptitude for eye-hand coordination, for balance, for certain kinds of visualization, etc. I think that model does a better job of explaining not just the early success and ease of some people, but also why those who struggle initially usually start to experience breakthroughs at some point -- not always dramatic and sharply defined ones, but it seems to be a common experience.
Yes, the "common sense" conception of aptitude (and things like intelligence, etc.) is that it is a monolithic thing. That is just simply way too simplistic. The reality is that most non-trivial tasks require a variety of aptitudes. They also require the development on non-trivial skills some of which are no doubt more easily acquired for some than others. So put that gigantic mess into a blender and hit go and each one will be different.

Seeing success right away is always encouraging, certainly better than sucking horribly right off the bat. However the requirements of any non-trivial task are usually complex and that initial success simply doesn't guarantee it will continue. You always have to look at the "whole" student. The whole package. And like most area most will end up performing in the big, tall middle chunk of the bell curve. Those who push up into the vastly more rarefied air of a few standard deviations higher are few and far between. It is not just the perseverance that gets them there, however. I'm sure we all know people with 30 years experience who, well, just aren't all that good at whatever it is we do. Because what it takes to be "good" at this stuff isn't trivial.

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Old 12-03-2010, 09:10 AM   #39
Keith Larman
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Just as a random thought, ever heard someone say "So and so was great, but he never seemed to be able to put it all together..." You can never quite put a finger on why they couldn't "get it" since "it" all seemed to be there. "It", however, just seemed to be a mess.

It probably was a mess. And it may not have been the lack of any one skill, just not quite enough of the right balance of every thing else.

Or as someone else has also pointed out you also have to consider mental "aptitudes" as well such as perseverance. The person who is able to just keep "plugging along" can sometimes get through it and get where they need to go. But then again, we all know of 30 year vets who clearly have some skills, but just don't have that "umph" you'd expect. You think "It just lacks something...". Yes, it does.

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Old 12-03-2010, 09:11 AM   #40
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Re: Talent & Aikido

I think this is a great discussion, and an important to have.

I believe aikido has a lower point of entry than other martial arts, especially the physical ones. I do not mean this in a derogatory manner, O'Sensei worked very hard to make aikido a martial art that offered a wide berth of participation. However, I know of no evidence that O'Sensei believed everyone who trained aikido would become a competent martial artist. Related to this point, I think O'Sensei actually worked to remove much of the "martial" aspect of the art to make it more palatable for a larger demographic. Over the years, I think this attitude corroded into the thought that anyone could do aikido and become a competent in a fighting art. I believe this is achievable from an intellectual standpoint, but not necessarily from a physical standpoint.

I preamble my comment because I believe this mindset has something to do with the prevailing perception of competency in aikido.

Aptitude is a great assessment of potential. We used to issue aptitude tests to children before testing became the end-all, be-all of schools. Aptitude is not a judgement, only a measurement of potential. Somewhere along the line we dropped aptitude because "you can be anything when you grow up," and we didn't like being told that wasn't necessarily true.

Like many posters, I believe perseverance is more important than aptitude in a budo like aikido. Likewise, dedication and training ethic are more important than aptitude. However, I think talent plays a larger role in the bujitsu side of martial arts, including aikido. The aikido people who separate themselves from others usually employ a strong training ethic, natural talent and they persevere through the years.

I am going to venture into theory here, but I think sometimes we confuse the budo of self-development with the bujitsu of martial application. I think the nature of aikido lends itself to slipping from one into the other quite effortlessly.

As a very personal story, I used to work with the special needs children at my high school. In gym class I remember one occasion during which the kids were playing basketball. No, imagine a number of high-school age children with a variety of needs, some handicapped, some autistic, some with MS, and some with mental development problems throwing a basketball generally in the direction of the basket... It was basketball in the loosest sense of the sport, but physical activity. One of the wheechair-bound children with severe MS asked the teacher (a special needs counselor) why he wasn't as good at basketball as the other [normal] children with the other kids. The teacher replied that he could be if he practiced, I think as a way to answering the boy's question without hurting his feelings. Well, class ended and we all went to the dressing room to change and that boy went missing. I went to find him and there he was in the gym throwing a basketball at the basket, then wheeling over to pickup the basketball and doing the whole thing over. He started crying when I told him he had to stop and get ready for his next class. He just wanted to be able to play basketball like the other kids so he was practicing. I was 15 I think and I'll be damned if I still don't have feelings that that teacher shouldn't have taken the time to give that kid a better answer.

I am very conscious as an adult in how I speak to children. I am also very conscious as an instructor about what expectations I set in class. I'll be damned if I ever make a poor answer to a difficult question like that teacher, or put someone else in a position of feeling what I felt that day. Aikido has a lot of commentary based on what we want to hear, not what is necessarily feasible.
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:23 AM   #41
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Talent & Aikido

It's been my observation that those of mediocre physical coordination are the ones that seem to go the distance, while those of "natural ability" short term, seldom ever last.... the tendency is to become over confident and disintegrate at the first hurdle, usually shiai, where there opponent is better skilled by practice or simply stronger.....
Those of lesser coordination either give up or become useful in administrative applications to do with organizational events, thus earning "honorary dan grades" through that avenue....
This I personally disagree with, unless elderly or have some physical disability which limits there progress.....
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:34 AM   #42
grondahl
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Regarding the fact that those with "natural ability" seldom lasts; what about individuals like Mochizuki, Tohei and other of the greats that early on got teaching responsibilites from Ueshiba?

If a individual with Toheis aptitude would walk in to your dojo tomorrow, would you be able to keep him?
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:47 AM   #43
Keith Larman
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Regarding the fact that those with "natural ability" seldom lasts; what about individuals like Mochizuki, Tohei and other of the greats that early on got teaching responsibilites from Ueshiba?

If a individual with Toheis aptitude would walk in to your dojo tomorrow, would you be able to keep him?
I never said people with "natural ability" seldom last. What I said is that there is not a strong relationship between having initial easy success and lasting. Some do come in with tremendous aptitude across the board. Those people will flourish in the right environment. The point was that aptitude isn't a singular thing but a complex assortment of "sub-aptitudes". And that having initial success can be a sign that *some* aspects are there, it is no guarantee that *all* of them are there. And as a matter of fact the person may in lack tremendously important attributes which may not manifest problems until later.

Of course all this assumes we are providing a rich, vibrant atmosphere for learning tuned to the person's aptitude as well. Crappy instruction is, well, crappy instruction.

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Old 12-03-2010, 10:11 AM   #44
Tony Wagstaffe
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Regarding the fact that those with "natural ability" seldom lasts; what about individuals like Mochizuki, Tohei and other of the greats that early on got teaching responsibilites from Ueshiba?

If a individual with Toheis aptitude would walk in to your dojo tomorrow, would you be able to keep him?
Who knows? Maybe that's why Ueshiba's heir couldn't.....
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Old 12-03-2010, 12:10 PM   #45
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Clark Bateman wrote: View Post
I can't see much to be gained by making judgments or comparisons on individual aptitudes or performances in aikido. It's like you get 100 people to jump into a swimming pool. Those who are good swimmers will probably boogie to the deep end, while those with little swimming ability will probably hang out in the shallows (at least until they get good enough to venture outward). But just about everybody will have a good time, and most will not care too much about what the others are doing. All that's really important is that nobody drowns...
Hi Clark,
Not to seem too obstreperous but do you think that the Founder and subsequent deshi who have created and spent their lives attempting to transmit this art did so with "everybody having a good time" in mind?

It's just got to be about more than that... even for folks with less aptitude or less than whole hearted commitment. I simply am unwilling to see this art as somthing O-Sensei created for the world so they'd have a fun activity for their leisure.

If it was about fun, I'd go drink wine at a nice bistro with friends... easier on the body, and nothing to achieve.

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Old 12-03-2010, 02:12 PM   #46
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Hi Clark,
Not to seem too obstreperous but do you think that the Founder and subsequent deshi who have created and spent their lives attempting to transmit this art did so with "everybody having a good time" in mind?

It's just got to be about more than that... even for folks with less aptitude or less than whole hearted commitment. I simply am unwilling to see this art as somthing O-Sensei created for the world so they'd have a fun activity for their leisure.

If it was about fun, I'd go drink wine at a nice bistro with friends... easier on the body, and nothing to achieve.
No George, I was not attempting to channel O'Sensei and his intentions here. This thread seemed to be more about what people were doing with aikido in the mainstream today than about what those esteemed forefathers were trying to teach, hence my analogy. I simply don't expect everybody to show up "at the pool" with exactly the same intentions or capabilities as everyone else, but if everyone can enjoy the swim (i.e. have fun) then everyone has something to show for it. While it would be great if everyone showed up for the reasons O'Sensei had in mind, I think the reality is that most train more for what they themselves expect. Sorry if I was more confusing than informative...
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:35 PM   #47
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Commitment beats natural talent every time. Put commitment together with natural ability and throw in top level instruction and you will have a top level practitioner.
Well said. Such a rare combination!

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Old 12-03-2010, 05:51 PM   #48
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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Jamie D. Ducusin wrote: View Post
Well said. Such a rare combination!
And rare to find the talent, commitment, and hard work all in the activity/sport/etc that they "fit"...

The volleyball player who's not quite there and doesn't know about... this or that sport in which they might just be the best in the world... (I've seen it happen)... someone who got tired of not "starting" on the 2varsity volleyball squad retired 11 years later from rowing with 3 Olympic and 3 World gold medals... Because someone shoulder tapped in a queue at university and said "have you thought of trying..."

The guy bashing away on a makewara for years and years, not knowing that (say) Aikido exists and may (or may not) be more suited and will never find out because his sensei/sifu/whatever walls off his training...
and so on.
W
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Old 12-03-2010, 10:47 PM   #49
graham christian
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Re: Talent & Aikido

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It is almost universally excepted in other arts, disciplines, sports, and professions that talent is relevant to the success of the person engaged in the activity. Not all participants will have the same performance, creativity, insights, or perceptions even with a similar amount and type of training.

It seems that there is a belief underlying the practice of certain martial arts, one of which is aikido, that talent is a non-issue or at least an issue that can be overcome either through the right teachers, the right training, enough time, or by gaining and/or accessing magical powers.

For example, Michael Jordan had an extremely high degree of both talent and training. His former Bulls teammate Steve Kerr also worked incredibly hard and maximized his level of talent, achieving things in pro basketball that few have, winning 5 championships. However, Kerr could never have been Jordan or do the things Jordan could do.

The above example is a comparison of two men that had broken into the highest level of their particular field.

If you take a random sample of the aikido community you will find a much greater variance, from very good to very poor.

So what about it?
Does this attitude exist? If so, why?
Why do we accept that someone who is slow, uncoordinated, physically weak, old, handicapped will be able to attain even reasonably high levels in the art?
What, if any, effect does this have on dan rankings?
What does this mean about the practice and future of the art?
Is this a problem, and, if so, how can it be remedied?

These questions are only things that quickly came to mind. Please, feel free to response in any way.
Hi Michael, nice thread.
I think that all people still doing Aikido have talent, probably of similar magnitute, so I don't think it of itself could ever be a problem. I'll explain:

Talent is indeed natural aptitude but to fully get the concept of it
you would have to see it's other components ie: love or liking of and desire.

When anyone tells me they would love to do something but, but , but.... Then I see they have the love and desire and so will have an aptitude for it. So now we come to NATURAL talent and what does it mean? Well it just means that this person has the above AND takes to the practice like a fish to water, with such ease it seems like he's done it all his life.

So everyone doing it has talent and some have that x factor.

So now to skill and ability, which are totally different. I'll break this down in to four stages.

1.First is indeed the desire to do the activity. (Try teaching someone who doesn't want to do it, or learn)

2)Second is the intention to study. (I define study here to mean the disciplined effort given towards learning) Emphasis here on disciplined and effort.

3)Third is the gaining of understandings and the application of those understandings better known as practice.( herein lies the responsibility of the teacher, for if the student has been'told' a million times and still does not understand it's nothing to do with his genes or brain.)

4)Fourth is the continuous apllication of those understandings until you can comfortably DO it. Now you have a skill, an ability.

Through not differenciating in this way many come to false conclusions even about themselves and believe things like they found they didn't have a talent for it after all, or that they are slow or clumsy. No, they do have a talent but there has been a failure somewhere along the line either in themself or in the teaching.

I find the student who is apparently slow is not slow at all, he is responsible for he won't let himself go to the next step until he understands the previouse step to his satisfaction. In fact those who jump to the next step think they are clever and look impressive but don't know the workings of the mind and spirit for these are still back in time still trying to understand the previous step or steps and this will eventually catch up and lead to a severe lesson.

In Aikido there is a problem before you even think of teaching it in that it is a martial art that was formed by a person who said it was to do with harmony, ki, and aphilosophical path in action. In other words that it is a martial art which deals with and has three aspects to it which can be studied and practiced, those three being physical, mental and spiritual.

So it's quite easy to get students not lasting too long and it's quite easy to get students who seem to last long but are seen as not truly representative of the way expounded by it's founder.

Why? Well many people who read what O'Sensei said and are inspired to do Aikido expect to be taught all these three aspects in equal measure and want to understand how the spiritual applies to the physical, how the mind apllies to the physical how they all relate to each other in every technique and even in life itself.

So then you can also see that if a person enters Aikido purely for the physical aspect then they may last quite a long time and get very good at the physical movements and applications and yet puts down the spiritual side and thus puts many people off of doing it and doesn't even know why. This also applies the other way round where a person makes it apparently all spiritual with the view of the physical being irrelevent. Same effect.

I think I've said enough for now. You probably noticed I do go on a bit don't I.
Good training. G..
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Old 12-04-2010, 07:22 AM   #50
SeiserL
 
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Re: Talent & Aikido

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
In the end all that matters is who are the old farts who are still treading water 40 years later...
I used to run distance (marathons) and I would tell people that I don't run fast and I don't run pretty but if I show up at the start line I will show up at the finish line.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
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