Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Columns

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Comment
 
Column Tools
  #126  
Old 11-07-2010, 08:42 PM
Lynn Seiser
Username: SeiserL
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
 
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
United_States
Offline
Lynn Seiser's Avatar
Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Breathe in, model
Breath out, mentor
Mindfully

I must admit that I tend to agree with Charles Barkley when he says that he is a basketball player and not a role model. I would hate to think...
__________________
Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!

Last edited by akiy : 11-07-2010 at 08:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2010, 12:04 PM   #125
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
For me it says not to make assumptions, each and every time try to understand as if for the first time.
Is it "as if for the first time" or with an open mind to see further, deeper, and wider?

In program we honor "one day at a time" but also honor how many "one day at a time" we have lived. Yet even there, I often hear this as an excuse not to learn or progress.

The only assumption I make is no matter how far I may progress there is always so much more to learn.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 01:40 AM   #126
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
IMHO, without a direction or destination in mind, the journey can just go around in circle, stay in the same place, or be entirely dstructive.

I think that is what some of us are saying: too often the journey (the training) is of no distance (no progress).

Thoughts?
I see what you mean. There are two sides. The first is about the way we practise. The other is what goals we set for ourselves (and others in case we also teach).

I really feel this is where the discipline part comes in. Adhere to some basic rules while training and you will progress without exactly knowing where you will end up (how 'good' you will become). My teacher explained this to me: try to teach to many people as you never know who will truly advance.
Danger lurking in this is that many make Aikido popular to attract many students...well, that is for a different thread I guess...

We cannot predict what we will learn on our journey. ...when all challenges are known in advance, many will never start the journey at all...

To have true confidence/faith in the art requires discipline.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 04:20 AM   #127
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Is it "as if for the first time" or with an open mind to see further, deeper, and wider?

In program we honor "one day at a time" but also honor how many "one day at a time" we have lived. Yet even there, I often hear this as an excuse not to learn or progress.

The only assumption I make is no matter how far I may progress there is always so much more to learn.
The first time ever you practised Aikido you did not know what to expect in Aikido...allthough perhaps you already assumed a few things about it.

The frame of reference applies. strongly. The second Aikido class you enter, your frame of reference has already changed because of your first training experience (both physically and mentally). You found out your initial assumptions were wrong, but by now have made new ones...
Each lessons you make new assumptions, a new model. Continue to do this and after a while you will have forgotten many of your assumptions, but these will still affect your Aikido at present. And probably limit your progress.
An old thread "what are the pillars of Aikido" comes to mind.

At some point it appears that we think we know what to expect in Aikido. We assume...

Your last statement that there is (probably) much more to learn is exactly the correct mindset. However, it is incomplete. It lacks focus (allthough I am sure you 'get this'). What is it we need to learn to improve/progress our Aikido? more techniques?...faster?... I for one do not believe so. Purification. Remove everything that has no place in Aikido.
Question is how to judge. What makes Aikido Aikido?

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 05:20 AM   #128
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
I see what you mean. There are two sides. The first is about the way we practise. The other is what goals we set for ourselves (and others in case we also teach). I really feel this is where the discipline part comes in.
Yes agreed.

I call it "D":
Decision
Direction
Daily Discipline

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 05:24 AM   #129
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Tim Ruijs wrote: View Post
At some point it appears that we think we know what to expect in Aikido. We assume...
Yes agreed.

I love the old saying about how to spell assume.

Perhaps beside training our bodies, we are also training our minds to enter, blend, and redirect our minds/assumption to accept and appreciate what is.

I often tell people its why I still write with a pencil.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 06:20 AM   #130
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
Anyway, just getting back to the original point a bit... The whole modeling metaphor is really interesting to me. Having this discussion reminded me of something I had totally forgotten about and I now wonder how much of an impact this one book had on my thinking today. Interesting... When I was just about to start high school (and before really discovering the joys of girls which derailed a lot of things I had been doing) I played a *lot* of tennis. My coach at the time got tired of me constantly asking questions about how things were done. I wonder if I was as much a pain then as I am now. Regardless... He gave me a copy of "The Inner Game of Tennis" by Tim Gallwey (had to look up his name). From what I remember it affected me greatly in terms of awareness of what was going on inside me and my mind when I played. Unification of mind and body... Hmmm, no wonder that term resonated with me when I started Aikido...
Hello Keith,

Have you read Golf in the Kingdom by Michael J Murphy? I think there are also sequels and deep discussions about the 'inner game' of golf, as well as tennis. And there are a whole load of books on the inner aspects of long-distance running, which is what I did before starting aikido.

When I was young (and certainly foolish), I read Castaneda. (Nowadays people perhaps read Eckhart Tolle.) This was when I had the time, the enthusiasm and the mental & physical stamina to do aikido training intensively for several hours each day. Luckily, I was also studying Wittgenstein very intensively and had a tutor at London University who had a passion for clarity and conceptual/intellectual precision that rivalled Austin's. So my philosophy tutorials became intense arguments validating my aikido experiences (such as I understood them--I had about ten years experience and was shodan level) in the face of pitiless questioning about such concepts as 'being centred' and 'extending ki through your finger-tips'. The one thing I could never rely on was IHTBF.

One poster suggested that Wittgenstein's preoccupation with language was the result of the ‘poverty of his own experience'. I do not believe this to be true at all, but to explain this in detail would entail too much thread drift. But just one example. Wittgenstein studied engineering and then turned to philosophy. He wrote the book that would eventually earn him a PhD in his spare time, while serving in the trenches as a stretcher-bearer in World War I. He survived the war and gradually repudiated his earlier thinking--and this is also why he is famous: he admitted that his earlier thinking was mistaken. I think there are lessons for aikido here.

Finally, shihan does not simply mean teacher: it also means model and I am somewhat surprised that no one has mention this in the present forum.

Lynn, in what way should a shihan be a model?

Best wishes,

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 11-25-2010 at 06:23 AM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 08:05 AM   #131
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Hello Keith,

Have you read Golf in the Kingdom by Michael J Murphy? I think there are also sequels and deep discussions about the 'inner game' of golf, as well as tennis. And there are a whole load of books on the inner aspects of long-distance running, which is what I did before starting aikido.
No, I haven't. I checked a copy of the Inner Game of Tennis out from my local library for a reread, however.

I also just started rereading some of Searle's writing and am enjoying it immensely. The Tennis book is going to have to wait. I find Searle lucid and compelling.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
When I was young (and certainly foolish), I read Castaneda. (Nowadays people perhaps read Eckhart Tolle.)
Funny, a friend recently asked me if I had read any of Tolle's stuff. I admitted I managed to get about two pages into one book before I started laughing. Just couldn't do it. I had a similar reaction to Castaneda as a young man.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
This was when I had the time, the enthusiasm and the mental & physical stamina to do aikido training intensively for several hours each day. Luckily, I was also studying Wittgenstein very intensively and had a tutor at London University who had a passion for clarity and conceptual/intellectual precision that rivalled Austin's. So my philosophy tutorials became intense arguments validating my aikido experiences (such as I understood them--I had about ten years experience and was shodan level) in the face of pitiless questioning about such concepts as 'being centred' and 'extending ki through your finger-tips'. The one thing I could never rely on was IHTBF.
Now that's an image. When I started Aikido I had left my study of philosophy and was working in Psych research (what, you don't hire people to do philosophy?). I had to have been a difficult student on the best of days. I was chatting with two of our Shihan recently and they asked me how many times I had considered quiting over what I thought was "silly things" and "poorly formed concepts" over the years. I admitted I had no idea. But it was certainly more than once.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
One poster suggested that Wittgenstein's preoccupation with language was the result of the ‘poverty of his own experience'. I do not believe this to be true at all, but to explain this in detail would entail too much thread drift.
I let that go as it is simply wrong. The Wittgenstein family was an amazing family. And Ludwig, lord, there was an enigma. With his name and family influence he could have easily avoided serving on the lines in WWI, but he felt it was his duty to be at the very front. In some of the most horrific battles of WW I. And his entire life of science, engineering, mathematics, and then philosophy was powered simply by his will to understand everything. Absolutely a brilliant living his life according to standards that I can barely comprehend. And on an intellectual level it seemed the only person who could keep up with Wittgenstein was B. Russell. And even he had to find him difficult at best. Then his equally gifted brothers who commit suicide, his sister, and on and on. As a guy with a computer background as well I find it interesting that apparently one of the few to ever directly challenge Wittgenstein in his pronouncements was Turing. Also interesting given orientation issues. Wow, it must have been an amazing time. Poverty of experience? Wow. This was no arm chair philosopher. But I am drifting too.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Finally, shihan does not simply mean teacher: it also means model and I am somewhat surprised that no one has mention this in the present forum.
Interesting. I suppose I knew that but it never occurred to me even in the context of this discussion.

Last edited by Keith Larman : 11-25-2010 at 08:12 AM. Reason: Corrected some history. Shouldn't write before my morning tea...

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 08:43 AM   #132
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Finally, shihan does not simply mean teacher: it also means model and I am somewhat surprised that no one has mention this in the present forum. Lynn, in what way should a shihan be a model?
Thank you.

I did not know its actually meant "model".

IMHO, it isn't that we all should or shouldn't be models, but simply the fact that we all are.

Some of us will be a model for what to do (or how to live) and some will be a model for what not to do (or how not to live).

Unfortunately, not everyone has the discernment to make the distinction of the "wisdom to know the difference".

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:08 AM   #133
Tim Ruijs
 
Tim Ruijs's Avatar
Dojo: Makato/Netherlands
Location: Netherlands - Leusden
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 395
Netherlands
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Please forgive me my wish to elaborate...

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
I did not know its actually meant "model".

IMHO, it isn't that we all should or shouldn't be models, but simply the fact that we all are.

Some of us will be a model for what to do (or how to live) and some will be a model for what not to do (or how not to live).
The way I understand "shihan" is that it reflects a person that (positively) inspires people to improve themselves; is exemplary in his/her ways. The term "role model" would perhaps somehow fit. But please do not take it too literal

Quote:
Unfortunately, not everyone has the discernment to make the distinction of the "wisdom to know the difference".
Many have already indicated the importance of a good teacher (shihan). But I hasten to add to not blindly 'follow' your teacher.

In a real fight:
* If you make a bad decision, you die.
* If you don't decide anything, you die.
Aikido teaches you how to decide.
www.aikido-makato.nl
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:41 AM   #134
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 876
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
One poster suggested that Wittgenstein's preoccupation with language was the result of the ‘poverty of his own experience'. I do not believe this to be true at all, but to explain this in detail would entail too much thread drift. But just one example. Wittgenstein studied engineering and then turned to philosophy. He wrote the book that would eventually earn him a PhD in his spare time, while serving in the trenches as a stretcher-bearer in World War I. He survived the war and gradually repudiated his earlier thinking--and this is also why he is famous: he admitted that his earlier thinking was mistaken. I think there are lessons for aikido here.
Very interesting... I must say, though, that some engineers do tend to take an overly reductionist view of the world, believing that things that can't be measured don't exist. (I know this because I am one -- no insult intended to an other engineers present.) But where does that leave love, or justice, much less things like "ki?"

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:56 AM   #135
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 876
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I let that go as it is simply wrong. The Wittgenstein family was an amazing family. And Ludwig, lord, there was an enigma. With his name and family influence he could have easily avoided serving on the lines in WWI, but he felt it was his duty to be at the very front. In some of the most horrific battles of WW I. And his entire life of science, engineering, mathematics, and then philosophy was powered simply by his will to understand everything. Absolutely a brilliant living his life according to standards that I can barely comprehend. And on an intellectual level it seemed the only person who could keep up with Wittgenstein was B. Russell. And even he had to find him difficult at best. Then his equally gifted brothers who commit suicide, his sister, and on and on. As a guy with a computer background as well I find it interesting that apparently one of the few to ever directly challenge Wittgenstein in his pronouncements was Turing. Also interesting given orientation issues. Wow, it must have been an amazing time. Poverty of experience? Wow. This was no arm chair philosopher. But I am drifting too. .
Okay, then what's his excuse for such a wrong-headed view of mind and language?

Sorry to be so combative, but I've seen the Wittgenstein pronouncement you quoted in other contexts, and it always grates on my nerves. First because it is entirely out of line with my own personal experience, and second because it is often used to rhetorically dismiss another person's experience. Which is fine if you're trying to score debate points, but not so useful as an approach to life.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 09:59 AM   #136
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Keith Larman wrote: View Post
I was chatting with two of our Shihan recently and they asked me how many times I had considered quiting over what I thought was "silly things" and "poorly formed concepts" over the years. I admitted I had no idea. But it was certainly more than once.
Yes agreed.

One of my jobs in high school was being a library page Wasn't much of a reading but they were going to pay me to put books back on the shelf. By time I left I was an avid reader and "I don't know" was were the journey started. I read almost anything I can get my hands on even if I cannot initially (or eventually) get my head around it.

Many things (including Aikido) is like a well written mystery that keeps me interested and moving forward. Even if the final chapter will not be in this lifetime.

I don't quit when I want to quit (for several of the reasons you cited and more) because I know I will be back to continue the journey.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 10:07 AM   #137
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
First because it is entirely out of line with my own personal experience, and second because it is often used to rhetorically dismiss another person's experience.
Yes agreed.

Many of my conflicts and much of my confusion (and some combat) has come because someone else's experience or expression do not match mine. I guess I finally accepted that it doesn't have to and not to take it personally.

I may be dismissing theirs just because it doesn't match mine too. I I would be missing out on so much if all I had to learn from is my own experience when some people who are far more intelligent than me have something very valuable to offer.

If other people dismiss my experience or expression, its just because it doesn't match theirs. In some regards that is how this fine discussion and many excellent conversations start,

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 04:00 PM   #138
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Your post was in response to Keith Larman, but I want to make clear here that Wittgenstein's view of language with which I myself am concerned, and which I think has direct relevance to aikido, is to be found in his later writings, from around 1931 onwards. The view of language espoused there--dealing with such topics as languages games, family resemblances, rule-following, private language, forms of life--is certainly not wrong-headed, at least in my opinion.

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Okay, then what's his excuse for such a wrong-headed view of mind and language?

Sorry to be so combative, but I've seen the Wittgenstein pronouncement you quoted in other contexts, and it always grates on my nerves. First because it is entirely out of line with my own personal experience, and second because it is often used to rhetorically dismiss another person's experience. Which is fine if you're trying to score debate points, but not so useful as an approach to life.

Katherine

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 10:03 PM   #139
Keith Larman
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,523
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Sorry, been away due to the holiday here in the US. Just wanted to post quickly before the wife catches me on-line...

What Peter said... That's the first thing. Wittgenstein's early work put logic front and center. Later work was on language and how we communicate. His work is anything but "wrong-headed" especially with respect to the issues discussed here. I am somewhat puzzled by how anyone could say that about Wittgenstein. Heck, even his early stuff depending on how you interpret it is probably relevant as well. But this will have to wait. The kid has soccer games to play this long weekend and I have my priorities... One of the benefits of being a dad later in life -- I have no conflict about what comes first. For now... A little girl who is about to turn 10 and who has a couple really important soccer games. At least in her world.

I'll come back to the thread later. Dad duty first...

  Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2010, 11:51 PM   #140
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

I have discussed the Japanese kanji for teaching and learning elsewhere in this forum, but paid more attention there to sensei than to shihan.

Shihan is composed of two characters: SHI 師 and HAN 範 (both Chinese ON readings).

The basic meanings for SHI given in the dictionary are: teacher, master, army, but there are not many compounds with the last meaning. The primary compounds have to do with teacher or master, but in the sense of a profession. Here are a few examples, apart from shihan: koushi 講師; kyoushi 教師 (the difference in nuance reflects the difference between 講 = lecture or study and 教 = teach or educate); genshi 厳師 (strict teacher).

However, it loses this specific meaning of teacher when coupled with other characters. Here are ten random examples: 技師 gishi engineer; 占い師 uranaishi fortuneteller; 庭師 niwashi landscape gardener; 研ぎ師 togishi polisher of swords; 野師 yashi charlatan, quack; 道化師 dokeshi clown; 馬具師 bagushi saddler; 漁師 ryoushi fisherman; 猟師 ryoushi hunter; 詐欺師 sagishi swindler, con man. There is a clear sense here of people earning a living or exercising a profession, but not necessarily teaching.

The basic meanings of HAN given in the dictionary are example, pattern, limit.
Examples: 範囲 han'i extent, scope, range; 範疇 hanchuu category; 典範 tenpan model; 規範 kihan standard, norm, criterion (this is the Japanese name for Doshu's two books on aikido, translated as Best Aikido); 軌範 kihan model, example; 模範 mohan model, exemplar.

Thus, while both shihan and sensei can mean teacher, there is a clear difference in connotation. However, I do not think the Japanese term has the wider meaning (good or bad model) you appear to give below.

Best wishes,

PAG

Quote:
Lynn Seiser wrote: View Post
Thank you.

I did not know its actually meant "model".

IMHO, it isn't that we all should or shouldn't be models, but simply the fact that we all are.

Some of us will be a model for what to do (or how to live) and some will be a model for what not to do (or how not to live).

Unfortunately, not everyone has the discernment to make the distinction of the "wisdom to know the difference".

Thoughts?

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 08:15 AM   #141
Allen Beebe
Location: Portland, OR
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 530
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Don't believe him Keith. (What does Peter know? He clearly lives in an ivory tower.) Take it from a guy living in the "trenches," Shihan means something completely different. Let's take a quick look at its component parts:

First: Shi, comes from "oshiko." (Not to be confused with shikko (a way of proving the durability of neoprene), or shiko (descriptive of the movement one performs after getting bit of one's "bits" pinched when one's fundoshi is cinched up.) We all know "oshiko" means "to pee." "shi" being "pee" and "ko" meaning "small," as in "Please excuse me, I need to (take a) oshiko." So "shi" is "pee."

Second: Han means "odd." Anybody that watches just one episode of Zatoichi knows that. It is a in-yo, or yin-yang reference typically heard in the phrase, "Han . . . Cho!"

So clearly, "Shihan" is translated "Pee-Odd." One can't fully understand the meaning of this phrase unless understands the meaning of "Sensei."

Sen means "stream" and Sei means "strait or true." So "Sensei" means "straight stream."

When one holds the meaning of Sensei (strait stream) in juxtaposition with Shihan (Pee odd) their omote meanings become clearer.

Then there is their Ura meaning. This is where the two seemingly opposing sides (or oppositional forces) unite as one whole, but this is a deep subject, rarely disclosed publicly.

~ Allen Beebe
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 11:54 AM   #142
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,629
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Allen Beebe wrote: View Post
Don't believe him Keith. (What does Peter know? He clearly lives in an ivory tower.) Take it from a guy living in the "trenches," Shihan means something completely different. Let's take a quick look at its component parts:

First: Shi, comes from "oshiko." (Not to be confused with shikko (a way of proving the durability of neoprene), or shiko (descriptive of the movement one performs after getting bit of one's "bits" pinched when one's fundoshi is cinched up.) We all know "oshiko" means "to pee." "shi" being "pee" and "ko" meaning "small," as in "Please excuse me, I need to (take a) oshiko." So "shi" is "pee."

Second: Han means "odd." Anybody that watches just one episode of Zatoichi knows that. It is a in-yo, or yin-yang reference typically heard in the phrase, "Han . . . Cho!"

So clearly, "Shihan" is translated "Pee-Odd." One can't fully understand the meaning of this phrase unless understands the meaning of "Sensei."

Sen means "stream" and Sei means "strait or true." So "Sensei" means "straight stream."

When one holds the meaning of Sensei (strait stream) in juxtaposition with Shihan (Pee odd) their omote meanings become clearer.

Then there is their Ura meaning. This is where the two seemingly opposing sides (or oppositional forces) unite as one whole, but this is a deep subject, rarely disclosed publicly.
Allen, you are truly demented and I love it!

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 12:40 PM   #143
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 876
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
Your post was in response to Keith Larman, but I want to make clear here that Wittgenstein's view of language with which I myself am concerned, and which I think has direct relevance to aikido, is to be found in his later writings, from around 1931 onwards. The view of language espoused there--dealing with such topics as languages games, family resemblances, rule-following, private language, forms of life--is certainly not wrong-headed, at least in my opinion.
Look. I'm not going to argue Wittgenstein's genius. It's not relevant to the topic, and I honestly don't care that much anyway. My argument is entirely with this statement, posted upthread:

Quote:
"The limits of my language are the limits of my mind. All I know is what I have words for."
Which, in my opinion, is simply wrong.

A thought experiment, if you will. Consider the most profound experience of your life. Could be the birth of a child, could be that perfect sunset on the beach in California, could be sitting with a dying friend. Whatever. Now, taking as much time and as many words as you need, describe it in sufficient detail (using words alone) that a reader -- who was not there and doesn't know you -- will understand that moment as you understand it, and will be moved by it as you were moved.

I doubt you can do it. This is the central challenge of literature, and very few people in the history of humanity have even come close. Clearly there are human experiences out there that cannot be captured in words.

My comment about the presumed poverty of Wittgenstein's experience springs from that fact. How would *he* put his profound experiences into words? Did he have any? Did he try? If so, how could he write something so clearly silly?

(And if the answer is an argument about what it means to "know" something, well, maybe the quote shouldn't be asked to stand alone without that context.)

Katherine

Last edited by kewms : 11-26-2010 at 12:44 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 02:30 PM   #144
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Which, in my opinion, is simply wrong.
In linguistics there is a factor of referential index, or lack of.

Mr. W expressed his opinion.

You expressed yours.

All of us express ours.

As a therapist I know that people are often limited by the mental map or model they hold in their minds. And we know that "the map is not the territory" but the map is the one we most often use to make sense of, describe, and navigate the territory.

I certainly agree that in my experience and opinion, there are far more mysteries in the world than my limited internal mental visualizations and verbalization can even begin to understand or describe. Aikido being one of them.

Please lets accept and appreciate the differences in perception, perspective, and discription here without the right or wrong or silly judgments.

If people would like to further the discussion of Mr W (who isn't here to defend himself) in another thread (other than how it applies to modeling and mentoring), I respectfully request it be taken up there.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 02:32 PM   #145
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
Allen, you are truly demented and I love it!
I'll certainly second that.

I know when I am learning the most, when I am laughing and not taking myself too seriously.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 04:55 PM   #146
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Look. I'm not going to argue Wittgenstein's genius. It's not relevant to the topic, and I honestly don't care that much anyway. My argument is entirely with this statement, posted upthread:

Which, in my opinion, is simply wrong.

Katherine
Look, I'm not going to argue Wittgenstein's genius either. It is, as you state, not relevant to the topic, and I also honestly don't care much anyway. However, I myself first mentioned Wittgenstein in Post #74 and I believe his later thinking, not the earlier logical atomism that you are thinking of, is relevant to the way one describes in words 'internal' actions, such as IS training and intentionality, being 'mindful' and acting with 'intent'.

Yours sincerely,

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 05:01 PM   #147
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I myself first mentioned Wittgenstein in Post #74 and I believe his later thinking, not the earlier logical atomism that you are thinking of, is relevant to the way one describes in words 'internal' actions, such as IS training and intentionality, being 'mindful' and acting with 'intent'.
Yes agreed.

I for one, in initial learning, rely heavily on my internal dialogue/language as a guide. My mind is full (mindful) with talk. Later I have to drop it and my mindfulness is more external awareness than internal absorption. Told you I was a sequential learner.

Many philosophers have talked about acting with intent. Very relevant and very important.

Thoughts?

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2010, 05:26 PM   #148
Peter Goldsbury
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Peter Goldsbury's Avatar
Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,997
Japan
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

As a good example of 'mindful modeling and mentoring', which I believe is the subject of this thread, I need to comment on Allen's superb analysis of bodily functions.

Pee is indeed oshikko おしっこ, but in English it needs a double k and the addition of a verb like する suru, or 漏る moru for the action, as in 'to pee', or 'to pee one's pants'.

If one were so inclined, one could take the analysis of 漏る moru (to leak) a little further. Unlike SHI or HAN, moru, also read as RO, is composed of elements called bushu. There are three: 水 (water or liquid), 尸 (door), and 雨 (rain). So oshikko wo moru (to pee one's pants) could be analyzed as 'opening the door and allowing it to rain'. Beautiful.

In addition, shikko (two ks) can be written in four other ways and shiko (one k and both without the o), in 22 different ways, but I fear this would take us too far away from this thread.

PAG

Last edited by Peter Goldsbury : 11-26-2010 at 05:40 PM.

P A Goldsbury
_______________________
Hiroshima, Japan
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2010, 04:38 AM   #149
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Dojo: Roswell Budokan, Kyushinkan Dojo, Aikido World Alliance
Location: Roswell, GA USA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,704
United_States
Offline
Re: Mindful Modeling and Mentoring

I am enjoying the depth of intelligence and humor.
A true blending of opposites.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

Seminar with Frank Doran, Shihan - Aug. 8-10, 2014 at Sunset Cliff's Aikido, near San Diego's finest beaches



Comment


Currently Active Users Viewing This Column: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Column Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new columns
You may not post comment
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:31 AM.



Column powered by GARS 2.1.5 ©2005-2006

vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2014 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2014 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate