Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-09-2010, 08:13 AM   #101
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
All warfare is based on deception." Sun Tzu
I think aikido is not about deception, I think its about [the lack of] communication. My partner needs to know how to resolve the conflict, right? I give my partner the information she needs to safely resolve the conflict, but not enough information to risk my safety. I am not necessarily saying anything false, I am just not saying everything... I have never seen a shihan "trick" anyone. In fact, when I work with [good] sempai I rarely am mislead in where to go or how to resolve the technique. Contrary, I usually find the technique easier to feel than when I work out with kohai. I believe this to be the result of better communication skills on the part of sempai.

To this point I also argue:
A. O'Sensei deliberately removed much of the warfare from aikido. You can find it if you look, but in daily practice its difficult to see. George touched on this... Aikido is about civilizing martial arts so its practitioners don't have to experience that trauma. Kevin posted some great responses on this thread about real warfare that we don't even begin to understand as civilians.
B. The arts that use what we call deception (which is probably more appropriately called treachery) are so perverse we cannot often comprehend them. The point of the treachery is to believe with such conviction your deception, it is not deception. To are not lying when you commit treachery, you actually create an alternate personality that is morally capable of playing out the treachery, to gain the confidence and trust of your opponent. The execution of treachery is the primary personality coming forward to abuse that status. It messes with your head to do such things - we prescribe pills for that kind of stuff. We don't do this in aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 08:39 AM   #102
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Have you ever trained another martial art seriously?
Yeah. My dad taught me Jujutsu and boxing from about three years old, so he says. Then I did Jujutsu formally for a couple of years then moved into TKD for three or four years. Then lau gar and kick boxing for a year or so and then finally Aikido.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the bit you've quoted; you seem to be taking issue with my statement that Aikido doesn't retrain the mind to make one less savage. I was/am being slightly facetious, hence the smiley, but I'm also making a serious point.

It makes no sense to me why doing kote gaeshi in jujutsu produces the "old" mindset and yet teaching the same technique in Aikido, often with more atemi than in Jujutsu, teaches the "new" mindset.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that a lot of people learn the kata and then stop. Where as people like me are trying to go beyond the kata and into oyo waza. I could be wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 09:57 AM   #103
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
My partner needs to know how to resolve the conflict, right?
Why? Their intention is to hammer you into the mat; they have all the information they need to do that. I train with my best friends, so I would hate to hurt them but when I attack them I attack with the full intent of hospitalising them, or worse, because my attack has to be honest for them to train properly. For that I take on a role which I believe with total certainty. You could even say I create an alternate personality because there's no way in hell I'd throw a punch at my best mate. But for that moment I am not Alex I am "the attacker."

Quote:
I give my partner the information she needs to safely resolve the conflict, but not enough information to risk my safety.
Eh?

I take it you mean this:
Quote:
In fact, when I work with [good] sempai I rarely am mislead in where to go or how to resolve the technique. Contrary, I usually find the technique easier to feel than when I work out with kohai. I believe this to be the result of better communication skills on the part of sempai.
Yes but then you do it by choice. There is no conflict here, you're resolving nothing, there is no problem to start off with. You've decided to fall over and your sempai has decided to throw you on the floor; all you want to know is how your sempai wants you to fall over.
The only reason you don't know how to "resolve the technique" is because you've chosen not to simply ask but instead to avoid effective communication in favour of intuition so that you can practice.

If that's Aikido then it was replaced several hundred thousand years ago with the invention of language.

There's no technical skill here; it's not like judo where there is conflict which must be delt with. What you're describing is an ideal place to be. There's nothing to be learned there because there really aren't any problems to be solved.

Quote:
I rarely am mislead in where to go or how to resolve the technique
So the technique to you is the problem because it requires resolution. The simple solution to this is don't do Aikido, problem solved.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 11:26 AM   #104
C. David Henderson
Location: Santa Fe New Mexico
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 606
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
If that's Aikido then it was replaced several hundred thousand years ago with the invention of language..
That's a keeper.

Regards.

David Henderson
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 11:47 AM   #105
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
It makes no sense to me why doing kote gaeshi in jujutsu produces the "old" mindset and yet teaching the same technique in Aikido, often with more atemi than in Jujutsu, teaches the "new" mindset.
Except that's not the example we were discussing. Ledyard Sensei compared Araki Ryu assassination techniques to aikido and found an enormous difference in attitude. What was your Araki Ryu experience, again?

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 11:55 AM   #106
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Why? Their intention is to hammer you into the mat; they have all the information they need to do that. I train with my best friends, so I would hate to hurt them but when I attack them I attack with the full intent of hospitalising them, or worse, because my attack has to be honest for them to train properly.
How many people have you actually hospitalized? Sent to the emergency room?

If the answer is zero, then either your attacks are lousy, everyone you're practicing with is much more skillful than you, or you aren't *really* attacking with full force. (Or all of the above.)

Which is fine. I don't actually believe that you have to attack with killing force in order to train honestly and sincerely. But if you *are* attacking with killing force, someone is going to get hurt. Very very few people are skillful enough (as either uke or nage) to manage that level of energy safely every single time.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 12:10 PM   #107
jonreading
 
jonreading's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido South (formerly Emory Aikikai)
Location: Atlanta, Georgia
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,073
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
My partner needs to know how to resolve the conflict, right?
Why? Their intention is to hammer you into the mat; they have all the information they need to do that. I train with my best friends, so I would hate to hurt them but when I attack them I attack with the full intent of hospitalising them, or worse, because my attack has to be honest for them to train properly. For that I take on a role which I believe with total certainty. You could even say I create an alternate personality because there's no way in hell I'd throw a punch at my best mate. But for that moment I am not Alex I am "the attacker."
Good question. For me its the fact that aikido is about conflict resolution, not fighting. I have to posses a quality of skill sufficient to apply technique (jitsu), but that is not aikido. I think on some level uke not only determines the resolution to technique, but whether you are practicing aikido. If uke is not in collusion with nage to protect his body we have jitsu; if uke comprehends the situation in which he has placed himself and uses his judgement to escape we have do. I believe this to be an advantage that allows us not only to engage in physical aikido ("fighting"), but also apply those learned principles to other areas of our life. However, it is also to say that aikido is designed to function with or without collusion from our partner (i.e. sometimes you need to open the can).

Aikido is about nage allowing uke to resolve conflict. I am a firm believer that aikido is not about controlling another person. This aikido becomes fallible when you cannot control your partner. While over-simplistic, I heard the relationship described as "uke should prove to nage that he is worth saving by expressing a knowledge of the predicament in which he has placed himself." Satsujinken, katsujinkin, blah blah blah. I think this is where we sometimes confuse cooperation with collusion. Cooperation is about multiple parties working towards a common goal; collusion is about multiple parties working towards an uncommon goal.

Quote:
There is no conflict here, you're resolving nothing, there is no problem to start off with.
Absolutely. I routinely train with sempai who under normal circumstances I would never approach as point of confrontation, these individuals are far more skilled than I. The point of [aikido] training is to artificially create a confrontation so that is may be resolved under a controlled environment. I believe a key role a dojo plays in our training is to provide a "safe" place in which to study, analyze and test martial science.

Quote:
So the technique to you is the problem because it requires resolution. The simple solution to this is don't do Aikido, problem solved.
In a sense, yes. For most of us aikido probably classifies as a hobby, not a profession. It needs to be something we enjoy. The correct application of technique is one aspect of my aikido training. As a point of study I enjoy applying techniques in my training. In another thread on this forum (Drop out rates) there is a real demographic of aikido students who stop training for the purpose you mention - they do not enjoy the study of aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 12:46 PM   #108
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Except that's not the example we were discussing. Ledyard Sensei compared Araki Ryu assassination techniques to aikido and found an enormous difference in attitude. What was your Araki Ryu experience, again?

Katherine
No he pointed out his enormous difference in attitude.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 01:02 PM   #109
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
How many people have you actually hospitalized? Sent to the emergency room?

If the answer is zero, then either your attacks are lousy, everyone you're practicing with is much more skillful than you, or you aren't *really* attacking with full force. (Or all of the above.)

Which is fine. I don't actually believe that you have to attack with killing force in order to train honestly and sincerely. But if you *are* attacking with killing force, someone is going to get hurt. Very very few people are skillful enough (as either uke or nage) to manage that level of energy safely every single time.

Katherine
I never used the word force.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 01:19 PM   #110
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
David Skaggs wrote: View Post
In the thought experiment of Schrodinger's cat, a cat is put in a box with a mechanism to release a poison to kill the cat. The box is sealed. Is the cat dead or alive? You do not know for sure until you open the box.

If there are a million boxes and you open up 10,000 boxes and find dead cats in every one of the 10,000 boxes, should you assume that the remaining boxes contain dead cats?

dps
The point of the experiment, and your graphic, is that the cat must be assumed to be both alive and dead until otherwise proven, since you don't know if the poison has been released yet. Meaning if you 10,000 boxes were opened up to find that the cats were dead, the other 990,000 would still have to be treated as though the cats were both alive and dead until open. I took this to mean we are both "that good" and "not that good" until otherwise proven right or wrong thought a situation arising, which I agree with. Discussions like this get nowhere and repopulate themselves on this site about once a month. Both sides are right in the void of "what if"?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 01:32 PM   #111
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Katherine Derbyshire wrote: View Post
Except that's not the example we were discussing. Ledyard Sensei compared Araki Ryu assassination techniques to aikido and found an enormous difference in attitude. What was your Araki Ryu experience, again?

Katherine
Kata is not fighting.

Aikido teaches you to cut down unarmed people with a sword. That's the basis of all our techniques. Tori moves to draw his sword, uke grabs his wrist to prevent it and tori kills him anyway. Is this nicer than Araki Ryu? Uke is always trying to defend themself and uke is always loosing. We're always rehearsing murder in the dojo but because it's an Aikido dojo suddenly simulating this murder becomes, "learning connection."

If an Aikidoka does tenchi nage with a broken bottle on a guy that he knows has a gun does the Aikidoka cease to be an Aikidoka at some point? Does all the Aikidoka's technical knowledge suddently cease to be Aikido at some point and become some other art?

I've been taught to do that with a tanto I could do it with a bottle, a pint glass; any number of sharp objects and if the guy was foolish enough to grab my wrist to stop me using the weapon.............

It's not the kata, it's the mind that's using the information from the kata.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 01:37 PM   #112
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Over the last several years I have read threads centered around violence in aikido. This theme also appears as a tangent in many related threads such as spirituality, combat, philosophy, "street" fighting, and so forth.

Inevitably, these threads all acquire a post (or multiple posts) that asserts an aikido person is capable of: A. protecting the attacker from harm, B. disarming an armed attacker, C. avoiding confrontation, D. all of the above. Currently, there are a couple of these very threads active.

I jest here but the point of my thread will be to argue whether it is realistic to expect an aikido person to successfully engage an attacker with a positive result (for all). I define successful engagement as the resolution of conflict without injury to either party (let's go will Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere terminology).

Building from the ground up are we that good? Is it reasonable to expect that at some point my physical abilities will support my philosophical ideology (to engage in confrontation without injury to any involved party)?

I think most of us are all talk. Those who have the necessary skills (to back up their talk) are few and far between. That does not mean I should abandon my philosophy, but it does means I should mitigate my expectations.

Thoughts?
How long is a piece of string?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 02:29 PM   #113
Russ Q
Dojo: Shohei Juku Aikido Gibsons
Location: Gibsons BC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 192
Canada
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
when I attack them I attack with the full intent of hospitalising them
This implies "force" to me Alex.

Quote:
How many people have you actually hospitalized? Sent to the emergency room? If the answer is zero, then either your attacks are lousy, everyone you're practicing with is much more skillful than you, or you aren't *really* attacking with full force. (Or all of the above.
I think this question is still valid....maybe you're saying you train with full intent to land your strike on the intended target whether moving slowly, half speed or full speed...

Quote:
Aikido teaches you to cut down unarmed people with a sword. That's the basis of all our techniques. Tori moves to draw his sword, uke grabs his wrist to prevent it and tori kills him anyway. Is this nicer than Araki Ryu? Uke is always trying to defend themself and uke is always loosing. We're always rehearsing murder in the dojo but because it's an Aikido dojo suddenly simulating this murder becomes, "learning connection."
Really, is that what your doing....rehearsing murder? Is this what your instructor is telling you is the proper mindset for training?

Curious....

Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 02:53 PM   #114
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
Why? Their intention is to hammer you into the mat; they have all the information they need to do that.
Not necessarily. Some of us have to edge our way toward a greater version of that understanding, but maybe I'm missing the point of this.
Quote:
I train with my best friends, so I would hate to hurt them but when I attack them I attack with the full intent of hospitalising them, or worse, because my attack has to be honest for them to train properly. For that I take on a role which I believe with total certainty. You could even say I create an alternate personality because there's no way in hell I'd throw a punch at my best mate. But for that moment I am not Alex I am "the attacker."
Sounds dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "alive" training, but I believe a person can dial it back (i.e. no intent to hospitalize) and still be quite authentic. To me, an intent to hospitalize means doing some nasty stuff without thinking it through...since much of what we're training is automatic in response. I don't need to be mean to teach how to deal with meanies. I need only to intend to hit, wrap/twist, or throw. Two well-practiced people can come close to "hospitalization-level" of intensity, but I don't ever want to train with someone who is trying to injure, lest one of us makes a mistake and allows it to happen.
I'm inclined to agree with you over the similar/dissimilar nature of the Evil Tea Servant with respect to some aspects of Aikido. There is overlap, even if the net result is to move in different directions (i.e. to help an attacker vs. to hurt a guest).

Quote:
Aikido teaches you to cut down unarmed people with a sword. That's the basis of all our techniques.
I disagree. Aikido's roots are concerned with killing while not being killed (which fits your description on the battle field). Aikido (ala Ueshiba) is not concerned with killing unarmed people. The basis of the techniques I've learned has more to do with how to deal with an incoming weapon while not being hurt.


Quote:
Ryan wrote:
How long is a piece of string?
I suppose that depends on the piece. This piece here is about this long.

Last edited by mathewjgano : 11-09-2010 at 03:05 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 05:28 PM   #115
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
I think this question is still valid....maybe you're saying you train with full intent to land your strike on the intended target whether moving slowly, half speed or full speed...
When I'm attacking I'm attacking. I am the attacker, I'm not an uke waiting to be thrown. I attack hard, I might pull it if I sense something is wrong but I am attacking.

Quote:
Really, is that what your doing....rehearsing murder? Is this what your instructor is telling you is the proper mindset for training?

Curious....
If you're making a cup of tea and thinking about making dinner do you end up with a steak?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 05:49 PM   #116
Ketsan
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 864
United Kingdom
Online
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Not necessarily. Some of us have to edge our way toward a greater version of that understanding, but maybe I'm missing the point of this.
How complicated his lifting your hand and then placing it on the head of someone else with force?

Quote:
Sounds dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for "alive" training, but I believe a person can dial it back (i.e. no intent to hospitalize) and still be quite authentic. To me, an intent to hospitalize means doing some nasty stuff without thinking it through...since much of what we're training is automatic in response. I don't need to be mean to teach how to deal with meanies. I need only to intend to hit, wrap/twist, or throw. Two well-practiced people can come close to "hospitalization-level" of intensity, but I don't ever want to train with someone who is trying to injure, lest one of us makes a mistake and allows it to happen.
Well there is such a thing as pulling an attack if it looks like tori can't handle it. But at that moment when I start my attack my intention is to do as much harm as I imagine someone who was actually attacking would want to do.

Quote:
I disagree. Aikido's roots are concerned with killing while not being killed (which fits your description on the battle field). Aikido (ala Ueshiba) is not concerned with killing unarmed people. The basis of the techniques I've learned has more to do with how to deal with an incoming weapon while not being hurt.
We still do it. Fine we practice it for other reasons but it's there.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 05:50 PM   #117
kewms
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,316
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
When I'm attacking I'm attacking. I am the attacker, I'm not an uke waiting to be thrown. I attack hard, I might pull it if I sense something is wrong but I am attacking.
Fine. Nothing wrong with strong, sincere attacks.

But that's not the same as attacking with intent to hospitalize.

And certainly not the same as the Araki Ryu mindset of serving tea with intent to kill.

Katherine
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 07:25 PM   #118
Russ Q
Dojo: Shohei Juku Aikido Gibsons
Location: Gibsons BC
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 192
Canada
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Alex,

Thank you for your clarifications. Perhaps save your words and reread them in ten years and see what you think then....

Cheers,

Russ
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2010, 07:53 PM   #119
mathewjgano
 
mathewjgano's Avatar
Dojo: Tsubaki Kannagara Jinja Aikidojo; Himeji Shodokan Dojo
Location: Renton
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,212
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Alex Lawrence wrote: View Post
How complicated his lifting your hand and then placing it on the head of someone else with force?
Ask my buddy who thought, "hey cool! a punching bag." He then sprained his wrist on it...first punch.

Quote:
But at that moment when I start my attack my intention is to do as much harm as I imagine someone who was actually attacking would want to do.
I think I see what you mean, now. You mean you're trying to hit as hard as you can; putting as much effort into the movement you can muster, whatever it may be.

Quote:
We still do it. Fine we practice it for other reasons but it's there.
I don't recall ever practicing kata where I cut down an unarmed opponant...granted I've got limited experience, and my memory aint perfect.

Gambarimashyo!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 12:24 AM   #120
drcarey
Location: N. Kentucky
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 8
United_States
Offline
Circle Re: Are We that Good?

Some of us are not nearly as good as we think we are.
Others are alot better than we know.
Aikido is for connecting to the 'universal', not for expanding our egos.
Aikido is for improving our own standards, not meeting someone elses.
Read and ignore all of my entries before taking something out of context.
I'm not 'that good'.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 12:56 AM   #121
dps
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,282
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
The point of the experiment, and your graphic, is that the cat must be assumed to be both alive and dead until otherwise proven, since you don't know if the poison has been released yet. Meaning if you 10,000 boxes were opened up to find that the cats were dead, the other 990,000 would still have to be treated as though the cats were both alive and dead until open. I took this to mean we are both "that good" and "not that good" until otherwise proven right or wrong thought a situation arising, which I agree with. Discussions like this get nowhere and repopulate themselves on this site about once a month. Both sides are right in the void of "what if"?
Yes, reality is not determined until the box is opened and the cat is observed.

The reality of being "that good" or not is not known until an opportunity to apply the idea ( open the box) is experienced, like being attacked for real.

Does a person have aiki or inner strength is not known until observed.

The cat in the last box opened has a 50% chance of being dead or alive when the lid is opened.

Maybe a better question is how do you train to be "that good"?

dps

Last edited by dps : 11-10-2010 at 12:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 01:21 AM   #122
CitoMaramba
 
CitoMaramba's Avatar
Dojo: Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines
Location: Plymouth, UK
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 492
Philippines
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Perhaps a video of the mentioned Araki Ryu Kata will help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2_Z-whRDRk

Note that tori is serving tea to the uke, and as uke reaches for the tea, tori grabs uke's hand, twists it in something similar to kotegaeshi, kicks and immobilizes uke, then disarms uke by taking uke's tanto from the obi, and finally administers a coup de grace with tegatana.

I don't recall ever seeing that as part of Aikido keiko..(the tea serving part, I mean, not the kotegaeshi)

Inocencio Maramba, MD, MSc
Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 02:16 AM   #123
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
I don't recall ever seeing that as part of Aikido keiko..(the tea serving part, I mean, not the kotegaeshi)
Reminds me of Hanmi Handachi Katatedori Kotegaeshi. Kind of.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 07:43 AM   #124
phitruong
Dojo: Charlotte Aikikai Agatsu Dojo
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,896
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Quote:
Inocencio Maramba wrote: View Post
Perhaps a video of the mentioned Araki Ryu Kata will help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2_Z-whRDRk

Note that tori is serving tea to the uke, and as uke reaches for the tea, tori grabs uke's hand, twists it in something similar to kotegaeshi, kicks and immobilizes uke, then disarms uke by taking uke's tanto from the obi, and finally administers a coup de grace with tegatana.

I don't recall ever seeing that as part of Aikido keiko..(the tea serving part, I mean, not the kotegaeshi)
i don't think the technique was what Ledyard talking about, but it's the mindset of the person execute the technique. the mindset of a cold-blood calculated assassin that kills at up close and personal without feeling or might even enjoy such killing. it's the crocodile brain.

of course i know nothing about that since i have not been trained in such matter, but only in the loving harmony of aikido.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2010, 08:02 AM   #125
Keith Larman
Dojo: AIA, Los Angeles, CA
Location: California
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,604
United_States
Offline
Re: Are We that Good?

Well, fwiw...

I just reread the first post. I *tried* to read through all the other responses, really, I tried, but I kept finding my eyes rolling back in my head due to too many oddly bifurcating streams of thought. But I wanted to say something so, like I said, I went back to the first post. I'll stick to that and get my 2 cents in...

Like some in this thread I've put on the gear and sparred. I've also stripped down into the tight bicycle shorts/t-shirt duo that makes me look incredibly silly (just me -- everyone else of course looks manly and quite confident -- me, I just look like a gigantic pale white manatee stuffed into colored sausage casings). Grappling and actually sparring with intent (but some safety equipment and with some rules (please don't kill me)) with trained folk is really a good experience. I'm reminded that most of O-sensei's students had intense backgrounds prior to training with O-sensei. He wasn't working with rank beginners -- he was a guy really good martial artists searched out to get even better. Or because they were really good and they found that he had something they wanted, whatever that might be.

So, like everyone, I see the notions the OP posted through my own eyes, experience and understanding of history. Leaving aside the at best variable definition of violence in use here, "resolving a conflict" with someone with skills intent on harming you is quite difficult indeed. I think Ueshiba M's intent and ideal was superb and a wonderful ideal to strive for. But I also have no illusions as to how difficult indeed that path is. As I said, those early deshi had no illusions about what strong martial arts were all about. And how difficult it was to prevail in a conflict. So they came to the table with considerable skill and experiential knowledge.

So putting out those observations my opinion is that many if not most are somewhat "overconfident" in their abilities. I see flowery, cooperative stuff and often hear the Mongo voice in my head saying "send me in, coach, I could rip his freaking head off". I tell Mongo to calm down, try things as shown, but in reality Mongo does often have a point.

Now this isn't to say the end goal isn't a great thing. I truly think the ideal is a good ideal to strive for. Attaining that ideal, however, isn't trivial. If you think it is get together with someone who really has fought, and I don't mean just a friendly jabbing session at the dojo. One might be able to control someone out of control with no real skills. But someone with some skills, power and desire to do you harm... That's a difficult situation.

So I have sympathy and truly hold the ideals of conflict resolution, spirit of loving protection (also seen as an attitude to allow one to move and function in a way that is different while still being martially effective), self-victory, etc. all to be important ideals. But they are lofty ideals to be sure. And one few of us will likely attain because the bar is so very high. Doesn't mean we shouldn't aim for them. But we have to be really careful not to think we've gotten there when we're really miles and miles away.

Okay, I feel better now.

  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recommend good DVDs? Nick Pagnucco General 28 08-09-2006 12:50 AM
What is good ukemi? John Matsushima Techniques 20 12-27-2004 10:31 PM
Relationships on the mat. A good thing? Troy General 10 06-01-2004 12:19 PM
Good book new insights. Reuben General 0 03-03-2002 08:59 AM
Rank! Good or bad? Erik General 9 07-13-2000 12:46 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:15 AM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate