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Old 12-15-2010, 11:31 AM   #126
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Is love a singular concept in either eastern or in western tradition?

I think not, but I don't read Kanji. However, I've read:

愛 ("ai") = fundamental desire, which may be either selfish or selfless, the later being associated in Buddhism with enlightenment

兼愛 (Chinese -- “jiān'ài”) = universal love

仁 (Ren) = “benevolent love,” associated with Confucianism

Then for you biblical scholars (you know who you are), we have the Greek -- philia, eros, agape, storge, and xenia....

In Medieval Europe arose a peculiar and psychologically kinky concept of courtly love.

And we haven't even gotten to the emotions that may arise in connection with shoji screens....

.

David Henderson
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Old 12-15-2010, 12:55 PM   #127
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
And we haven't even gotten to the emotions that may arise in connection with shoji screens....
They were asking for it

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Old 12-15-2010, 01:12 PM   #128
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

So we have a personal statement from Graham, "ki is kindness." In post 76, Graham cites an interview with O'Sensei as the source for his claim:
http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html
In the interview, O'Sensei does not speak on the topic of ki, specifically, but provides a larger perspective on "aiki".

We have an interpretation of ki that is inconsistent with most Japanese uses of the term, and is presented without support from historical, cultural, or semantic basis.

In any other realm of academia, we would not even have a thesis presentable for discussion, let along the evaluation of the claim. Without even getting to the argument of the truth of the claim, we can not even verify the claim is valid. Writing is not aikido; you do not write in a "aiki" manner. You do not take out the trash in an "aiki" manner. You do not add "aiki" as a suffix or prefix to any verb to imply that action be conducted in a harmonious fashion. You either clearly write or you do not. You either use correct semantics, grammar, and vocabulary or you do not. It's like lifting the X-wing from the swamp, you either do or do not...

The claim, "ki is kindness," is a invalid claim. Ledyard Sensei already proved the claim is invalid by simply stating a thing that possesses ki may not possess kindness. Whether the claim was poorly written remains to be seen, I argue it is. Several posters have already pointed out that with some clarification the claim could at least become valid, even if it could be proven a false claim. I have made several attempts to solicit additional information that would validate the claim from my perspective; Graham has chosen not to provide that information. Several posters have assisted Graham to validate his claim for him by actually providing the evidential support he lacks. Heck, there is even a post about ki from another thread on this thread that is better prepared than this one.

To be blunt, Graham threw out this little gem without a second thought. He didn't take the time to prepare his statement, provide supportive links, create a logical line of presentation, etc. The topic had merit and I bit. Turns out, I couldn't replicate his conclusion if I wanted to because he doesn't explain his rationale very well. So guess what? Just like any experiment - if you cannot replicate it, it ain't valid.
Quote:
I told you already I give views for people to contemplate and test for themselves and if they do this they can then acknowledge what I say, add to what I say, tell me what they discovered, tell me they see how it applies to life but enquire how it applies to Aikido, whatever. But only after they have tested it for themselves. No references, no translations, no he saids.
Next we move into this push to validate an invalid argument with this "all opinions should be respected" stuff. An argument that is not well-compiled, concisely presented, and well-supported is disrespectful of its intended readers. The obligation of the argument is to present an argument sufficient to persuade the reader (to support the argument); rhetoric is a discourse of persuasion, not some free-for-all. This purple pen, "you get credit for trying stuff" doesn't work in fact-based argument. If Graham won't take two minutes to link a citation to support his post, why the heck should it be incumbent upon me to verify his claim?
Quote:
What Shihan supports this view? It's not for me to say, why should I do your work for you. This is my view and if you don't want to test it for yourself and need correlation and back up then find some shihans who agree and find some who disagree and have fun.
That's respect? Not in my world. Opinions are like...err. Well, everyone has an opinion. We have a responsibility to present our opinion as a well-thought, considerate statement. If you choose not to take the time to know about what you are opining, then don't expect others to take the time to give consideration to your opinion. Respect is a term of valuation; respect is not a right. To respect one's opinion is to value the worth of the opinion.

Proper writing is not about hurting feelings, or loving each other, or any of these passive-agressive commentaries retorting criticism. Proper writing is about clearly communicating an idea... 120+ posts and we still don't have a clear idea of what Graham is saying...

Last edited by jonreading : 12-15-2010 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:17 PM   #129
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Hi Jon,

Nice post. I was waiting to see if Graham had a response, but he's gone elsewhere for now.

Honestly, I get the sense that Graham is attempting to share a number of insights he believes he's discovered in his practice, and sees our questions as getting in the way of the essential "truth" of his experiences.

I also, with due respect, do not get the sense that he has much experience in expressing these ideas to an audience except in his "sensei" mode, nor in critical thought.

When someone has so many particular ideas, expresses them in so many words, but cannot or will not engage others in fair debate, it does tend to come across as dismissive.

I really don't think that's intentional, but it does reflect a certain lack of facility in dealing with this realm of "conflict," benign as it is.

Anyway, my two cents.

Take care.

David Henderson
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:20 PM   #130
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
David wrote:
Is love a singular concept in either eastern or in western tradition?
So much is so subjective. When I was taking TESL courses this was driven home with so many examples of how intended meaning gets misunderstood...and I saw this countless times among my group of friends, who presumably should have a more common base of reference.
Quote:
Rob wrote:
Sorry, couldn't help myself
Must...not...let...Everett-grown personality...crack...jokes! Too many...awesome...jokes!
...whew! Close one. That could have been messy.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:41 PM   #131
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
I really don't think that's intentional, but it does reflect a certain lack of facility in dealing with this realm of "conflict," benign as it is..
I think some dharma combat could benefit Graham.

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Old 12-15-2010, 03:34 PM   #132
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
I also, with due respect, do not get the sense that he has much experience in expressing these ideas to an audience except in his "sensei" mode, nor in critical thought.
Which is a shame because so many aikiweb members could really help him refine his arguments. I find posts often help me critically evaluate my conceptual thoughts and thinking modes...
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:55 AM   #133
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

The precious techniques of ki!
They, the spirits (tama) subdue and pacify.
In these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, oh Kami of Heaven and Earth!

- Morihei Ueshiba
Today's doka
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:58 AM   #134
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
The precious techniques of ki!
They, the spirits (tama) subdue and pacify.
In these techniques of misogi purification
Please direct us, oh Kami of Heaven and Earth!

- Morihei Ueshiba
Today's doka
So how is this exactly pertinent to the discussion, Carina?
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:18 AM   #135
Peter Goldsbury
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Matthew Gano wrote: View Post
I guess what I think I'm seeing is a work in progress with regard to defining ki, basing it on something similar to my sense of ki as I learned it from Tsubaki America and thus Tsubaki Okami Yashiro in Japan...this idea of returning to the "source ki," which is pure (for lack of a better term perhaps) and, i presume, "good" (whatever that might be). If I'm not mistaken, Misogi has been explained to me in a similar light, in which over time, our otherwise good nature accumulates tsumi/impurity which we seek to return to its original, better state.
Hello Matthew,

I am sure you know the episode that is the source of misogi. It occurs in the Kojiki, when Izanagi-no-mikoto immerses himself in a river, after returning from Yomotsu-kuni (the underworld) and having some kind of encounter with his dead wife, Izanami-no-mikoto. For Japan, this is a crucial episode, for the two deities created when Izanagi was in the river were Amaterasu-o-mikami and Take-haya Susa-no-o, major deities in the Japanese pantheon.

Now this is not a case of Izanagi's pure nature accumulating tsumi over time, for nothing is stated about Izanagi's 'good'/'pure' nature. It was one, crucial, act, for which he had the very best of reasons for performing--rather like the original sin in Genesis. The woman took the fruit because she was told by the serpent that she would gain extra knowledge.

To put it very crudely, Izanagi and Izanami can be translated, respectively, as male sex/procreation deity and female sex/procreation deity; together they produced the Japanese islands--nothing at all like creation in Genesis. Izanagi went to Yomotsu-kuni because his wife had died in creating the deity of fire; the joint work of creation had not been finished. As far as I can see, KI is not mentioned at all in the early parts of the Kojiki, so there are no episodes where KI needs to be purified. Another, important, point is that Take-haya Susa-no-o did not perform misogi in a river after he was expelled from the land for ascending to Takama-no-hara and attacking Amaterasu's house and land.

Have you discussed Izanagi's misogi 禊, tsumi 罪 / kegare 穢 with Mr Barrish? Perhaps you should?

So, purely on the basis of the original myth, I am unconvinced that KI is like misogi and there is nothing in the Kojien definitions that suggests this.

Best wishes,

PAG

P A Goldsbury
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Old 12-16-2010, 05:17 AM   #136
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
So how is this exactly pertinent to the discussion, Carina?
It is not, I just put it for reflection, sometimes it is good for everyone
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Old 12-16-2010, 06:22 AM   #137
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
It is not, I just put it for reflection, sometimes it is good for everyone
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet;
And so are you.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:05 AM   #138
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
So we have a personal statement from Graham, "ki is kindness." In post 76, Graham cites an interview with O'Sensei as the source for his claim:
http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html
In the interview, O'Sensei does not speak on the topic of ki, specifically, but provides a larger perspective on "aiki".

We have an interpretation of ki that is inconsistent with most Japanese uses of the term, and is presented without support from historical, cultural, or semantic basis.

In any other realm of academia, we would not even have a thesis presentable for discussion, let along the evaluation of the claim. Without even getting to the argument of the truth of the claim, we can not even verify the claim is valid. Writing is not aikido; you do not write in a "aiki" manner. You do not take out the trash in an "aiki" manner. You do not add "aiki" as a suffix or prefix to any verb to imply that action be conducted in a harmonious fashion. You either clearly write or you do not. You either use correct semantics, grammar, and vocabulary or you do not. It's like lifting the X-wing from the swamp, you either do or do not...

The claim, "ki is kindness," is a invalid claim. Ledyard Sensei already proved the claim is invalid by simply stating a thing that possesses ki may not possess kindness. Whether the claim was poorly written remains to be seen, I argue it is. Several posters have already pointed out that with some clarification the claim could at least become valid, even if it could be proven a false claim. I have made several attempts to solicit additional information that would validate the claim from my perspective; Graham has chosen not to provide that information. Several posters have assisted Graham to validate his claim for him by actually providing the evidential support he lacks. Heck, there is even a post about ki from another thread on this thread that is better prepared than this one.

To be blunt, Graham threw out this little gem without a second thought. He didn't take the time to prepare his statement, provide supportive links, create a logical line of presentation, etc. The topic had merit and I bit. Turns out, I couldn't replicate his conclusion if I wanted to because he doesn't explain his rationale very well. So guess what? Just like any experiment - if you cannot replicate it, it ain't valid.

Next we move into this push to validate an invalid argument with this "all opinions should be respected" stuff. An argument that is not well-compiled, concisely presented, and well-supported is disrespectful of its intended readers. The obligation of the argument is to present an argument sufficient to persuade the reader (to support the argument); rhetoric is a discourse of persuasion, not some free-for-all. This purple pen, "you get credit for trying stuff" doesn't work in fact-based argument. If Graham won't take two minutes to link a citation to support his post, why the heck should it be incumbent upon me to verify his claim?

That's respect? Not in my world. Opinions are like...err. Well, everyone has an opinion. We have a responsibility to present our opinion as a well-thought, considerate statement. If you choose not to take the time to know about what you are opining, then don't expect others to take the time to give consideration to your opinion. Respect is a term of valuation; respect is not a right. To respect one's opinion is to value the worth of the opinion.

Proper writing is not about hurting feelings, or loving each other, or any of these passive-agressive commentaries retorting criticism. Proper writing is about clearly communicating an idea... 120+ posts and we still don't have a clear idea of what Graham is saying...
Hi Jon,
Who says I don't like criticism? I think most criticism is pretty pointless however I accept all criticism, doesn't mean I agree with it.

We do indeed have a personal statement-'Ki is kindness' but saying in post 76 I cite an interview with O'Sensei as the source of this claim is wrong.

The source of this statement is obviously me otherwise it wouldn't be a personal statement would it?

The citing of O'Sensei interview was in response to being asked where I get my 'what' O'Sensei said ' views from on another thread.

Telling me you do not write in an Aiki manner is your opinion, obviously you don't write in an Aiki manner but another may write in whatever manner or style they prefer.

The claim Ki is kindness is an invalid claim is also your opinion. Saying it's proved by an EXAMPLE someone gave can only make me smile.

Now how you equate a clarification of the word respect with me trying to say you must respect an invalid argument, well I suggest you read through it again.

O.K. Now we come to the crux of the matter. You are upset by the fact that I do not give evidential support to my statement. Is that not true?

You believe that is the correct way to present something. Is that correct?

You equate this as the correct way to present a .thesis for debate. Is that correct?

You expect me to do this otherwise you can't agree?
Is that correct?

If you and others hold firmly to this point if view then in this particular case you will be disappointed.

The source of the statement is me. I can explain how I come to this but it is not through reference to what anyone else says or believes, it's through my own gained awareness in my practice of Aikido and Ki-atsu.

Given as a statement of truth is from my own personal realizations on Ki.

Now, if I therefore can't give references for who else of note says this then you are perfectly welcome to disregard it.

Respect. G.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:16 AM   #139
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

So it's you, and you alone, who is absolutely and completely wrong. And this is my opinion (and other's) and so it must be respected. Isn't it.

Well, you lost your time. A lot of it.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:36 AM   #140
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Jon Reading wrote: View Post
Which is a shame because so many aikiweb members could really help him refine his arguments. I find posts often help me critically evaluate my conceptual thoughts and thinking modes...
I agree with this and with your previous comment (ref. my recent comments in this thread). At the same time, i do find myself sympathizing somewhat with those who find the "rigorously supported argument" approach off-putting. By this, I don't mean that I believe that any thought may be labeled an "opinion" and thus acquire an inviolable claim to be "respected" (where "respected" is more or less synonymous with "accepted whole cloth and considered unquestionable"). I don't mean that I'm in sympathy with intellectual laziness. I do find, though, that when I'm approaching a new concept (or an old concept in a new way), I usually go through a period of very fuzzy thought -- thinking by braille, so to speak. I went through this when I first bumped up against the concept of mushin, for example -- it was experience-based, not based on reading or theory, and it wasn't until literally years later that I heard the term "mushin". I don't find that the rigorous approach helps me to refine my thoughts at that stage: doing so feels kind of like applying a precision instrument when I'm not even sure of what it is I'm creating.

It may be that what we're seeing in this forum is in part a clash of these two different thinking styles, and perhaps a failure by some posters to understand which style they're using at the moment. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a "fuzzy thought" discussion in a medium like this. I think it's natural for anyone reading a "fuzzy thought" post to ask for particulars to give some kind of framework or context; it's very frustrating otherwise. But it's also frustrating for someone trying to feel their way through this fuzzy period to be asked to present their thoughts in a different mode, before they're ready to do so. Maybe part of the difficulty could be solved by acknowledging when we're having fuzzy thoughts, and not trying to present fuzzy thoughts as conclusive or definitive.

Just some fuzzy thoughts on the matter...
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:08 AM   #141
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Roses are red,
Violets are blue,
Sugar is sweet;
And so are you.
Roses are red,
Violets are purple,
Sugar is sweet,
And so is maple surple.

dps
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:27 AM   #142
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I agree with this and with your previous comment (ref. my recent comments in this thread). At the same time, i do find myself sympathizing somewhat with those who find the "rigorously supported argument" approach off-putting. By this, I don't mean that I believe that any thought may be labeled an "opinion" and thus acquire an inviolable claim to be "respected" (where "respected" is more or less synonymous with "accepted whole cloth and considered unquestionable"). I don't mean that I'm in sympathy with intellectual laziness. I do find, though, that when I'm approaching a new concept (or an old concept in a new way), I usually go through a period of very fuzzy thought -- thinking by braille, so to speak. I went through this when I first bumped up against the concept of mushin, for example -- it was experience-based, not based on reading or theory, and it wasn't until literally years later that I heard the term "mushin". I don't find that the rigorous approach helps me to refine my thoughts at that stage: doing so feels kind of like applying a precision instrument when I'm not even sure of what it is I'm creating.

It may be that what we're seeing in this forum is in part a clash of these two different thinking styles, and perhaps a failure by some posters to understand which style they're using at the moment. Unfortunately, it's hard to have a "fuzzy thought" discussion in a medium like this. I think it's natural for anyone reading a "fuzzy thought" post to ask for particulars to give some kind of framework or context; it's very frustrating otherwise. But it's also frustrating for someone trying to feel their way through this fuzzy period to be asked to present their thoughts in a different mode, before they're ready to do so. Maybe part of the difficulty could be solved by acknowledging when we're having fuzzy thoughts, and not trying to present fuzzy thoughts as conclusive or definitive.

Just some fuzzy thoughts on the matter...
Hi Mary,

First, thanks for your thoughtful comments. I was thinking of this yesterday in terms of a cultural division -- much the same notion, I tend to think.

Second, I agree that exploring ideas requires room to move, cogitate, shift perspective, and at this stage holding up a model of intellectual rigor may begin a winnowing of thought too soon.

I see there also may be different "styles" of attempting to obtain that necessary room, reflecting the different styles to which you've alluded.

What occupied us for quite some time were two ideas -- the categorical nature of the proposition "ki is kindness," and the attribution of this view to O Sensei.

It's clear that some of us did not react to the statement "ki is kindness" (or the other generalizations in the OP) as implying a categorical correlation or identity. To others, when we encounter such statements, it's almost like the writer put a bull's eye on the statement and invited constructive comment.

When the statement is so easy to challenge, to us it seems, as you aptly put it, "intellectually lazy."

As to the attribution of this view to OSensei, it appears we are back at the beginning, Fesig, as now Graham presents the view as his own. Again, I have no question Graham's general view of the man is in line with a not uncommon one, and can certainly see how his observations generally fit within such a view. But to me, these are not the same thing.

Finally, I would submit that one level of what I heard Jon speak to was about writing clearly -- if nothing else, it lessens the risk of misunderstanding, perhaps especially because people have different thinking styles. Also, FWIW, if rumination is presented as rumination, not conclusion, I think it gives the conversation somewhere to go.

Best,

David Henderson
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:36 AM   #143
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Peter A Goldsbury wrote: View Post
I am sure you know the episode that is the source of misogi. It occurs in the Kojiki, when Izanagi-no-mikoto immerses himself in a river...Have you discussed Izanagi's misogi 禊, tsumi 罪 / kegare 穢 with Mr Barrish? Perhaps you should?
Hi Prof. Goldsbury,
Thank you again for another great reply! I can see I should do that. My recollections are from brief memories, now over a decade old, so I'm sure they're less than adequate.
My only question for now would have to do with
Quote:
Now this is not a case of Izanagi's pure nature accumulating tsumi over time, for nothing is stated about Izanagi's 'good'/'pure' nature. It was one, crucial, act, for which he had the very best of reasons for performing--rather like the original sin in Genesis. The woman took the fruit because she was told by the serpent that she would gain extra knowledge.
Is it explained what the "very best of reaons for performing" would be? Was the result listed as the intended purpose? I guess I seem to have taken it as implied that going to the underworld would be a "dirty" affair, and taking a dip would be a good way to take care of that (i.e. returning to a state which carries less "impurities"/dirt).
Nothing like the danger of a little bit of knowledge eh?
Thanks again, and take care,
Matthew

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-16-2010 at 09:41 AM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-16-2010, 11:00 AM   #144
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

- All right, then. There are four kinds of people in this world: cretins, fools, morons, and lunatics.
- And that covers everybody?
- Oh, yes, including us. Or at least me. If you take a good look, everybody fits into one of these categories. Each of us is sometimes a cretin, a fool, a moron, or a lunatic. A normal person is just a reasonable mix of these components, these four ideal types.
...
Umberto Eco. Foucault's Pendule

What follows after the quote I posted above could give an interesting perspective to threads like this one. IMHO of course.

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Old 12-16-2010, 11:26 AM   #145
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

You Diabolical fellow.

David Henderson
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Old 12-16-2010, 12:39 PM   #146
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

I am going to clarify my position since this thread is now getting pretty long. My responses on this thread are predominately targeted at the manner in which Graham made his initial post. The manner in which Graham presented his post, and subsequent claim was done in a manner consistent with presenting fact, yet it was opinion.

Aikido is a complicated art. Many of its concepts are complicated in nature and many of use also have cultural and language barriers to overcome. In the discussion of complicated topics on forums like Aikiweb I believe it is necessary to be clear, concise and supportive of statements we make. Aikiweb is home to a variety of countries, languages, educational backgrounds, aikido styles and so forth. It is important that we leave little ambiguity to what we say.

The claim Ki is kindness is an invalid claim is my opinion. I cannot speculate on a subject about which too little information is presented to garner discussion. The bulk of this thread has been tangental to the initial post.

Quote:
You are upset by the fact that I do not give evidential support to my statement. Is that not true?
I am not upset by the content of the posts on this thread; I am disappointed I cannot participate in following how Graham arrived at his claim that ki is kindness.

Quote:
You believe that is the correct way to present something. Is that correct?
I believe that rules of language are constructed to maximize clear and effective communication. I believe that we should work within those rules to express ourselves. I think we should use terminology that accurately reflects what we want to say, I believe that we should present our thoughts in a manner consistent with how we wish them to be interpreted.

Quote:
You equate this as the correct way to present a .thesis for debate. Is that correct?
I believe that the initial post was presented as a conclusion based upon some evidential basis. I choose to request the supporting information to allow myself to arrive at the same conclusion. As I stated in one of my previous posts I now know that the case was that Graham did not present a conclusion for discussion, but was just opining upon a personal reflection.

Quote:
You expect me to do this otherwise you can't agree?
Is that correct?
Correct. A statement of fact is different than an opinion. I do not believe you can agree or disagree with an opinion, since opinion is merely an expression and not verifiable. I can verify the sun will come up tomorrow; I cannot verify whether blue is the best color.

Quote:
If you and others hold firmly to this point if view then in this particular case you will be disappointed.
Correct. I was hoping to hear something that would make your statement resonate with me. Instead, I felt like I was missing something since I didn't drink the KoolAid.

Quote:
The source of the statement is me. I can explain how I come to this but it is not through reference to what anyone else says or believes, it's through my own gained awareness in my practice of Aikido and Ki-atsu.
This could have lead into your personal comment from the beginning. Instead, I your comments were unclear as to the origin of them; I believe this damaged the ethos of your statement by omitting that you had only personal experience as the foundation of your belief.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:14 PM   #147
mathewjgano
 
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Misogi per Tsubaki Jinja

I just remembered Tsubaki America describes a bit of this part of the Kojiki with regard to misogi shuho (The norito itself is located above this translation):

"Upon the will of the Great Spirit, by which the Universe is initiated in the cosmic force of creation by the Kamis (Divine Spirit) of birth and growth, and through which the solar system is united in the force of harmony by the Kamis of Yin and Yang, the Kamis of purification came to exist from the impurities which Izanagi-no-Mikoto (Divine creator of the solar system) cleansed from his body in the divine river of heaven.

We will be able to recognize (see) the Kami (truth), only after we purify ourselves of all negativity, impurities, faults and restore ourselves to what we are meant to be (natural brightness)."

http://tsubakishrine.org/misogishuho/index.html

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:44 PM   #148
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Re: Misogi per Tsubaki Jinja

http://tsubakishrine.org/misogishuho/index.html

Sorry, I meant to include the following as well:
Quote:
Izanagi-no-OKami (Kami who created solar-system and ancestor Kami of all on Earth) conducted the first Misogi-Shuho following his visit to the Yomi (world of death). His purpose was to "wash away defilement", "cleanse his body from pollutants" and to "perform the purification of his august person". Prior to entering the Tachibana River to cleanse completely Izanagi-no-Mikoto rid himself of all his possessions…..as he was being pursued by elements of impurity from the Underworld he first through his tsue (staff)….from that staff SARUTAHIKO-NO-O-KAMI was born.

This is why SARUTAHIKONO-O-KAMI is also known as DOUSOUJIN, Kami of the Way, Path and Kami to protect the Path. FUNADO-NO-OU-KAMI, Kami to protect crossroads, KUNADO-NO-SAHE-NO-KAMI, Kami to Protect , ward off misfortune….Sarutahiko-no-O-Kami has many other names as well.

Then Izanagi-no-O-Kami threw away all his Jewelry and clothing into the river as they were also contaminated by impurities. These articles became the twelve Kami who protect the directions in which people live, travel, work and conduct business…..

Then after finding the spot in the river not to swift and not to slow Izanagi-no-O-Kami entered the river to purify himself….many Kami were created from this act, many Kami of wrongdoing as well as Kami to rectify wrongdoing originated during this first Misogi.
Doesn't this suggest misogi (and thus Aikido as a misogi practice?) is about cleansing away impurity, even despite the fact that both good and bad things came from that supposed first event? If we can say misogi is about removing negative things, and the goal is a sort of endless effort at positivity (which includes optimism regarding anything/one we encounter, per my understanding of the Misogi no O Harai, at least), wouldn't that imply the corollary of an effort toward kindness...bearing in mind I accept kindness can include a punch to the nose where it might be, well, kind to do so?
Whatever the case, I'll have to think about it quite a bit more and ask Sensei Barrish his view. I'm finding myself going back and changing terms back and forth which is never a good sign to me that I know what I'm talking about...or trying to say for that matter.
Anyhow, sorry for the long tangent, but I'm trying to see how we might make the title phrase...agreeable.
Take care folks!
p.s. rereading this I can see how I might still need to show that "Ki" is being purified (and thus returned to it's positive state)?
...er...never mind any other holes in my attempt at logically connecting these things...

Last edited by mathewjgano : 12-16-2010 at 02:52 PM.

Gambarimashyo!
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:28 PM   #149
C. David Henderson
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Speculating a bit further, ki then is present and being expressed both in the "purified" and "unpurified" mind. "Misogi" (programmatically) is supposed to change the characteristics of that flow.

Aikido-as-misogi takes aim at "making better people."

The question posed by this thread is whether the two can exist apart from one another.

For one who also insists that aikido must be budo, an equally pertinent question may be whether the two can exist together, without either having its essential character subsumed by the combination.

Like an old married couple.

David Henderson
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Old 12-16-2010, 03:44 PM   #150
Janet Rosen
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Re: Ki is Kindness.

Quote:
Charles David Henderson wrote: View Post
For one who also insists that aikido must be budo, an equally pertinent question may be whether the two can exist together, without either having its essential character subsumed by the combination.

Like an old married couple.
Hey I resemble that statement! I'm 1/2 of an old married couple... AND I see no contradiction in the aikido I do being both a martial art and my spiritual practice. Not that I'm necessarily very good at either...just striving.

Janet Rosen
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"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
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