Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > Training

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-25-2010, 01:05 PM   #26
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

The role of the uke is to enhance the learning of the nage. the uke is a partner, not an opponent. To this end uke needs to deliver an attack that has content and maintain his structure as best he can. If he or she has that structure compromised, they should recover as quickly as possible. If recovery isn't possible, they should be taking the Fall.

It is a mistaken idea that uke should be trying to stop the partner if possible, that this is somehow the more martial way of practicing. Uke and nage are BOTH training. They are training to do the same thing. So if uke decides to dispute the space with nage and then as nage he is supposed to be learning not to do this, the body and mind just get confused. Uke and nage should be doing the same thing in each role, namely staying connected and relaxed.

On the other hand, it's probably worse for nage to have people tanking for him. If the uke is colluding, no one has any idea at all whether something is really working or not. Also, all of the energetic cues nage keys off on are wrong and energetically false. It not only isn't beneficial to train with ukes who are tanking but it's actually detrimental.

A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude. A great uke sees what ukemi the Sensei got when he demonstrated and then attempts to give his partner exactly the same ukemi that Sensei just got fro his uke. If he is good at this, the technique that is natural and logical from the attack will be the same technique that was demonstrated. Too many folks think their job is to screw up the technique, when of course, they already know what's coming. That's silly and has nothing to do with good martial arts. In a real confrontation, you have no idea what's coming.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 01:15 PM   #27
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,255
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Thank you for the above - great post on uke's role!

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 01:30 PM   #28
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,073
Spain
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
A good uke's job is to force nage to do the technique properly. He is not there to stop the technique and he isn't there to collude.
What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.

If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 01:32 PM   #29
ramenboy
Dojo: midwest aikido center
Location: chicago
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 342
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

more great reading about ukemi from one of my sempai:

http://www.aikiweb.com/training/tomoleoni1.html

practice hard
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 02:09 PM   #30
Ryan Seznee
Dojo: Does it matter?
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 102
United_States
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote: View Post
OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.

A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.

So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...

Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...

Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..

So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.

Many thanks

Dave
Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 02:58 PM   #31
Gary Petrison
Dojo: Aikido of Hilo
Location: Hilo, Hawaii
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6
United_States
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Donovan Waite's "Meeting the Mat" video is one of the best.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 03:02 PM   #32
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Ryan Szesny wrote: View Post
Don't bother with videos. If your instructor can't do the ukemi, you won't be able to ether. Ask him/her for help, and if that doesn't work, go train under someone else.
I think sometimes books and videos are helpful... but I agree; if you train under a Sensei for so many years and can't do it right still, what video or book can help you?

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 03:28 PM   #33
George S. Ledyard
 
George S. Ledyard's Avatar
Dojo: Aikido Eastside
Location: Bellevue, WA
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,670
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Demetrio Cereijo wrote: View Post
What do you suggest to force nage to do the technique properly without stopping nage when he/she is doing the technique wrong.

If nage's technique is wrong uke's structure and balance haven't been taken, or have been recovered. Then the waza stops.
I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.

My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.

Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.

George S. Ledyard
Aikido Eastside
Bellevue, WA
Aikido Eastside
AikidoDvds.Com
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 04:41 PM   #34
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I

The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.
Our teacher is always showing that, he is as good uke even with a brand new one
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2010, 03:29 AM   #35
amoeba
Dojo: Aikido Netzwerk
Location: Düsseldorf, NRW
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 80
Germany
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
George S. Ledyard wrote: View Post
I am not saying that if nage makes a mistake, like pushing or pulling, tensing up, etc. that I fall down. If nage hits my structure the technique stops dead (with lower level people; wit seniors I revers them). But I do not train with the intention of stopping them. I train with the intention to connect to their center. If it's a strike, I am really striking. If it's a grab, it is a grab that is capable of moving their center. I maintain my alignment and structure throughout, if possible. So if the technique stops, it is because the partner ran into my structure, not because I tried to stop him. No one ever won a fight by stopping the other guys movement, you have to be able to take the other guys center.

My rule of thumb is that uke should never do anything with his body that doesn't make sense martially. So tensing up and hunkering down, which so many think is good training is really the opposite. When I see these fellows at a seminar I am teaching I will call them up for ukemi. I then place my hand on their outstretched arm and tell them to make themselves immovable. I then smack the guy upside the head with my hand. Then I say, protect yourself... when he moves to protect himself, I tell him no, be immovable. Even the biggest dope pretty quickly figures out that he can only do one of those things. The instant at which he tightens up to be immovable, he is open and cannot protect himself. The instant he gets responsive enough to protect himself, he is movable.

Now the internal power guys can be quite difficult to move without tensing up. That's a different matter. They simply have a very strong and integrated structure. They can be just about un-throwable and still be relaxed. But they are not doing anything in their role that compromises their freedom to respond or move as needed by the situation. So, once again, it has to do with ones intention. It is not the uke's intention to stop nage. It is his intention to maintain proper alignment and structure and stay connected with nage so that his attack can effect nage. The instant that ability is compromised, ukemi should happen immediately because his position is then untenable.
Great post! I completely agree!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 09:57 AM   #36
Alberto_Italiano
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 296
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Dave,

I can tell you only what is my personal idea of a good uke - no claim to setting any universal standard on my part: just the type of uke _I_ find useful.

My ideal uke is twofold - when I learn, he is just passive but does nothing to make things easier for me.
When I _think_ I am ready for some action witb that technique, my ideal uke attacks me without any regard for me - s/he must not matter if I get a big slap on my face, s/he must not matter if i can't tenkan fast enough and s/he pushes me on the ground, s/he must aim directly at me with weapons and not at my sides, s/he must remeber s/he has two arms and use both.

In turn, I will not project him/her. I will just go till I get a grab and i am completing 80/85% of the technique.

So, to me, a good uke is the one who makes me this favour: fight me like a guy who wants to hit me and maul me badly in the street would do. Anything that falls short of this, is working against my hopes of developing an _effective_ aikido and deluding me into the certainty that I could cope with a real attacker when in reality I can't.

The good uke, my good uke, is the one against whom my techniques would most likely fail and that sends me home frustrated and with a deep sense of my inadequacy against a determined adversary.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2010, 07:19 PM   #37
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 94
Singapore
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Dave Plaza wrote: View Post
OK, not sure what section this should be in but some advice would be most appreciated.

A couple of days ago my lesson was, how to be a uke. A wonderful lesson and a good and welcomed look at what I can only describe now as an art in itself.

So the next day I wake for work... I wake but can't move, "why can't I move my neck?"...

Probably because I hit the mat incorrectly so many times... Well, that's the reason for sure. It was a combination of too much fear and age, and a lack of knowledge and skill... that led me to feeling this way...

Now! I so want to be a good uke, and now I totally understand the difference in a good and bad breakfall... I know now that I must blend and I know kind of how to flip over... but because I got injured (nearly better now) I still have fears..

So what I'm asking is... Could any of you peeps be so kind as to point me in the direction of good youtube vids that you think show a good uke? And hopefully I can get some tips pointers from it.

Many thanks

Dave
No videos to recommend here, but just like to share my view.

In my opinion, Uke's primary role in Aikido training is not so much to take a fall without injuring himself. I believe the Aikido Uke's primary role is to be a source of reassurance to Tori that Aiki is felt in his technique (right up to the final release).

So based on this understanding of Uke's role, it all depends on how Tori delivers his Aiki (the speed, angle, timing & power of the dynamics).

For example, if Tori's angle of his final release is directly forward in nature, Uke would have to take a step or two forward first before taking a roll. But if Tori's angle of his final release is steeply downwards, Uke would have to do an immediate tuck downwards and take a roll.

Uke's style of ukemi all depends on how Tori executes his techniques. And Uke must determine his ukemi by "feeling" Tori.

There no ideal style of ukemi except for the one which "feels" Tori & blends with him.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2010, 09:25 AM   #38
Tony Wagstaffe
Location: Winchester
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,211
United Kingdom
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Ones that don't fall over from a puff of wind.......
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 03:51 AM   #39
Paul Crawley
Location: Brisbane, Qld
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 4
Australia
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Patrick Fitzpatrick wrote: View Post
You know now that I've looked at that video a few times, I'm convinced that it's clever camera trick, where it's actually a backwards fall played in reverse. (based on the way the hakama seems to slide up his legs). The rest of the video is then in normal forward motion. The sound was all messed up for me so I couldn't based on that.
Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.

Cheers,
Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 08:05 PM   #40
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Gary Petrison wrote: View Post
Donovan Waite's "Meeting the Mat" video is one of the best.
...that's copy righted. >_<

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-21-2010, 03:26 PM   #41
patf
Location: California
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 48
United_States
Offline
Re: Being a good uke.

Quote:
Paul Crawley wrote: View Post
Hi Patrick, the video is actually just forward and backwards rolling played in reverse. We made it because we were playing around and wanted to see/show how similar the two movements are. So each forward roll is one of us rolling backwards and visa versa. Just for the record, we didn't mean for it to be misleading or pretending it is something it's not, it's just mucking around. Cool to hear you liked it.

Cheers,
Paul
It certainly worked, I found it hard to see who was going forward and who was going backward without looking at it a few times.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Recommend good DVDs? Nick Pagnucco General 28 08-09-2006 12:50 AM
What is good ukemi? John Matsushima Techniques 20 12-27-2004 10:31 PM
Relationships on the mat. A good thing? Troy General 10 06-01-2004 12:19 PM
Good book new insights. Reuben General 0 03-03-2002 08:59 AM
Rank! Good or bad? Erik General 9 07-13-2000 12:46 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:32 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate