Welcome to AikiWeb Aikido Information
AikiWeb: The Source for Aikido Information
AikiWeb's principal purpose is to serve the Internet community as a repository and dissemination point for aikido information.

Sections
home
aikido articles
columns

Discussions
forums
aikiblogs

Databases
dojo search
seminars
image gallery
supplies
links directory

Reviews
book reviews
video reviews
dvd reviews
equip. reviews

News
submit
archive

Miscellaneous
newsletter
rss feeds
polls
about

Follow us on



Home > AikiWeb Aikido Forums
Go Back   AikiWeb Aikido Forums > General

Hello and thank you for visiting AikiWeb, the world's most active online Aikido community! This site is home to over 22,000 aikido practitioners from around the world and covers a wide range of aikido topics including techniques, philosophy, history, humor, beginner issues, the marketplace, and more.

If you wish to join in the discussions or use the other advanced features available, you will need to register first. Registration is absolutely free and takes only a few minutes to complete so sign up today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-20-2010, 03:49 PM   #1
valjean
Dojo: Wexford Aiki
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
United_States
Offline
Smile Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Sometimes while at work I'll take 5 minutes to read some aikido blogs or forums, just as a quick break. Usually I find this a pick-me-up, but yesterday I ran across a discussion board where an MMA advocate said a bunch of negative and critical things about aikido. When I then did some additional searches, I quickly started to find more postings and articles with a similarly negative theme about aikido. It kind of depressed me, although I'm not entirely sure why, and so I started to think about the whole MMA-aikido debate. Why does there seem to be so much hostility there, among MMAers w/ regard to aikido?

Well, my natural affinity for aiki reasserted itself this morning, in the form of silly humor. If asked why I study aikido (and speaking as a student with less than two years of practice under my belt), I tend to imagine saying something like, "Because I want to be graceful like the leopard, or, perhaps, the puma;" or "Because I am seeking enlightenment. (Sensei, am I enlightened yet?)"

Whereas, one of my MMA friends, by contrast, is far more likely to say of his own motivation for study, "Because I want to make people bleed," or "Because I want to be able to dominate opponents in the ring or on the street."

This is surely overstated, and I'm confident that many MMA practitioners would object to the stereotype (perhaps while pounding my head into a pancake). But maybe in some small way it does reflect something about aiki as a martial path, or at least as my martial path. We aim to train in budo, but we do not live in the world by seeking combat with others. We train for self- defense by blending and extending, and when possible by side-stepping violent encounters. And many of us want to share laughter and joyfulness in the practice of art. I remember the first time I stepped into an aikido dojo in Cambridge -- the place was almost like a church, you could feel that much positive energy, warmth, and engagement in the air. I knew I wanted to give aikido a try -- even though it took another 10 years for me to actually have the time and opportunity to come back to it.

I can't imagine that MMA would offer me the same things that aikido practice does. Not to say anything bad about MMA, or to suggest that I'm martially more effective than an MMA person with similar training time -- but my intuition is that we're all of us motivated by different things. I hope someday to be good enough at aikido to be able to use it as a practical martial art, but even now I can use it metaphorically in conflict resolution in every-day life. And that's more than good enough for me, even if aikido isn't everybody's cup of tea.

I assume that MMAers also sometimes use their training for resolving non-violent conflicts in every-day life -- but I do confess to wondering what that looks like, and what it means to them?

Last edited by valjean : 10-20-2010 at 04:00 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 04:35 PM   #2
chillzATL
Location: ATL
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 847
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

IMO, that attitude and mindset comes more from people who like MMA and like to talk the talk, but don't actually train themselves. While most MMA fighters wouldn't find much use for aikido, few would openly have anything bad to say about it because it's completely outside the scope of what they do.

Don't fool yourself into thinking that aikido offers something in the way of spirituality or morality that other arts, even MMA, do not. They may not talk about it at length, but they understand it better than most.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 04:55 PM   #3
Conrad Gus
 
Conrad Gus's Avatar
Dojo: Victoria Family Aikido
Location: Victoria, BC
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 262
Canada
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

It is true, though, that aikido, in general, has a lot less of the macho chest-thumping atmosphere that is common in many martial arts clubs (including MMA). It's one of the reasons I like aikido so much.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 04:59 PM   #4
Janet Rosen
  AikiWeb Forums Contributing Member
 
Janet Rosen's Avatar
Location: Left Coast
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,257
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Well, since I'm interested in aikido, I stick to aikido related sites. If my own training goals were congruent with another art, I'd go pick another art to train in. Otherwise, it would be like worrying about what an opera singer or afficionado thought about the Delta blues.

Janet Rosen
http://www.zanshinart.com
"peace will enter when hate is gone"--percy mayfield
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-20-2010, 07:53 PM   #5
makuchg
 
makuchg's Avatar
Dojo: FL Aikido Center
Location: Spring Hill, FL
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 84
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

This topic, as well as the tough guy type posts run rampant on this site. It is as if all lost sight of the "do" aspect of our art. Aikido is not about stepping into a ring to compete with another, it is about a martial journey to harmony in oneself.

I have many friends in the MMA world, including several professional fighters. What I have found is they understand comparing a martial art to MMA (even though "martial art" is in the acronym) is like comparing apples and oranges. You have very different objectives. And just as we admire their physical prowess in the ring, many respect the spiritual journey we take through our practice.

What will you get out of MMA? Exactly what you put into it

What will you get out of Aikido? Exactly what you put into it.

Gregory Makuch
Wandering Ronin
Spring Hill, FL
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 12:19 AM   #6
WilliB
Dojo: Minato Aikikai
Location: Tokyo
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 143
Japan
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Greenberg wrote: View Post
Sometimes while at work I'll take 5 minutes to read some aikido blogs or forums, just as a quick break. Usually I find this a pick-me-up, but yesterday I ran across a discussion board where an MMA advocate said a bunch of negative and critical things about aikido. When I then did some additional searches, I quickly started to find more postings and articles with a similarly negative theme about aikido.
Youtube is also full of that. I think a lot of the blame for these stupid arguments can be placed on the Aikido side -- or more specifically on the false claims that often come from there.

Things like "defeat any opponent effortlessly by using his own power against him, regardless of your size and his".... etc etc etc.

Those who spout hot air like that should not be surprised about some blowback.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 04:36 AM   #7
SeiserL
 
SeiserL's Avatar
Location: Florida Gulf coast
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 3,803
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Perhaps its like being MMA in an Aiki world.

IMHO, just different intent and intensity.

There are many styles/schools to match what we want and who we are.

Lynn Seiser PhD
Yondan Aikido & FMA/JKD
We do not rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. Train well. KWATZ!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 07:40 AM   #8
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,075
Spain
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Greenberg wrote: View Post
I assume that MMAers also sometimes use their training for resolving non-violent conflicts in every-day life -- but I do confess to wondering what that looks like, and what it means to them?
Instead of avoiding non-violent conflicts until they get tired and dissapear in a sea of love and universal harmony they tackle, throw, pin, punch and choke non-violent conflicts until the non-violent conflict is ko'ed.

MMA practitioners are the mongol horde on roids.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 07:42 AM   #9
lbb
Location: Massachusetts
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,059
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

I'm not a huge fan of the metaphorical uses of aikido ('I was in this meeting at work, and things were getting tense, and I used aiki to blah de blah de blah"), and a huge cynic where such things are involved...but even I will admit that the metaphor can work. If you're a believer in such, then don't you owe it to yourself to walk the talk? And doesn't walking the talk include not manufacturing nonexistent conflicts, and not engaging in conflicts when there's the opportunity to "get off the line" (metaphorically speaking)?

It seems to me that this is just such a case. Point the first, I question whether the conflict exists. MMA and aikido have different goals, although if the goals are defined broadly they will certainly overlap. MMA and aikido practitioners are often after different things, much like a person with a toothache and. a person with a broken leg. The person with the toothache doesn't get in a snit because the person with the broken leg is going to an orthopedist and not a dentist.

Point the second, insofar as there is a conflict, you don't have to engage in it. You never have to go there. You are not called on to defend the honor of aikido, or anything silly like that. You are not an aikido missionary trying to nail shoes on the heathen. It doesn't have to be your problem. If you're dealing with a blowhard, such as Jason describes, recognize it as such, smile and change the subject. You're not going to convince a blowhard. If you're the one who's puffing hot air yourself, as Willi describes, just stop doing that. Just as you can't convince a blowhard, blowhards rarely convince anyone else.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 07:59 AM   #10
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

I find that in Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, both MMA related arts, most people are quite down to earth and humble. It is difficult for an ego to survive in an atmosphere where your skills are tested realistically and you are humbled regularly by more skilled people in sparring.

I just went back to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu this week after 4 1/2 years of not training and I can tell you it was most humbling, but nobody tried to haze me or attempted to show me up. The black belt I sparred with kind of just toyed with me lightly as I attempted in vain to do techniques. They worked with me at my level of conditioning and were very friendly and helpful.

Although I have not trained MMA specifically I am sure the mindset is similar for most practitioners, but you certainly do have a little bit of a thug element involved as well, at least wanna be thugs.

Most Aikidoka I trained with were great people but I actually found more snobbery, affectation, and passive aggression in Aikido. It was just a few people but significant enough to me to notice a difference in training attitudes.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 08:12 AM   #11
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post
I'm not a huge fan of the metaphorical uses of aikido ('I was in this meeting at work, and things were getting tense, and I used aiki to blah de blah de blah"), and a huge cynic where such things are involved...but even I will admit that the metaphor can work. If you're a believer in such, then don't you owe it to yourself to walk the talk? And doesn't walking the talk include not manufacturing nonexistent conflicts, and not engaging in conflicts when there's the opportunity to "get off the line" (metaphorically speaking)?

It seems to me that this is just such a case. Point the first, I question whether the conflict exists. MMA and aikido have different goals, although if the goals are defined broadly they will certainly overlap. MMA and aikido practitioners are often after different things, much like a person with a toothache and. a person with a broken leg. The person with the toothache doesn't get in a snit because the person with the broken leg is going to an orthopedist and not a dentist.

Point the second, insofar as there is a conflict, you don't have to engage in it. You never have to go there. You are not called on to defend the honor of aikido, or anything silly like that. You are not an aikido missionary trying to nail shoes on the heathen. It doesn't have to be your problem. If you're dealing with a blowhard, such as Jason describes, recognize it as such, smile and change the subject. You're not going to convince a blowhard. If you're the one who's puffing hot air yourself, as Willi describes, just stop doing that. Just as you can't convince a blowhard, blowhards rarely convince anyone else.
and

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
I find that in Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, both MMA related arts, most people are quite down to earth and humble. It is difficult for an ego to survive in an atmosphere where your skills are tested realistically and you are humbled regularly by more skilled people in sparring.

I just went back to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu this week after 4 1/2 years of not training and I can tell you it was most humbling, but nobody tried to haze me or attempted to show me up. The black belt I sparred with kind of just toyed with me lightly as I attempted in vain to do techniques. They worked with me at my level of conditioning and were very friendly and helpful.

Although I have not trained MMA specifically I am sure the mindset is similar for most practitioners, but you certainly do have a little bit of a thug element involved as well, at least wanna be thugs.

Most Aikidoka I trained with were great people but I actually found more snobbery, affectation, and passive aggression in Aikido. It was just a few people but significant enough to me to notice a difference in training attitudes.
Just thought they were well worth repeating. Good posts.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 08:39 AM   #12
guest1234567
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 428
Spain
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Greenberg wrote: View Post
, but yesterday I ran across a discussion board where an MMA advocate said a bunch of negative and critical things about aikido.
In all MMA there are all kind of people perhaps I'm so lucky never meeting people like that. I know and trained with judo,karate, ninjutusu, and jijiutsu practicers who wanted to know how it feels training with us, in our dojo is one guy who practiced judo before and another who practice ninjutsu the days we have no aikido, all of them are humble and respect our MMA.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 09:22 AM   #13
valjean
Dojo: Wexford Aiki
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
United_States
Offline
Smile Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Mary Malmros wrote: View Post

Point the second, insofar as there is a conflict, you don't have to engage in it. Just as you can't convince a blowhard, blowhards rarely convince anyone else.
Yes.

No particular interest in proselytizing here. Me, I just want to achieve the grace of the leopard. (Or, perhaps, the puma.)
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 10:06 AM   #14
MM
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,996
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Greenberg wrote: View Post
Yes.

No particular interest in proselytizing here. Me, I just want to achieve the grace of the leopard. (Or, perhaps, the puma.)
Off the topic, but is there an aikido dojo in Wexford?
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 10:08 AM   #15
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

It is also worth noting though that occasionally there are some people in BJJ and Judo dojos that will haze you. I have experienced that many times. I am stubborn enough that I just used it as a leaning experience and made it a point to train with them as much as possible, it made me much tougher. Consider it realistic training in dealing with an agressive bully.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 10:43 AM   #16
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Modification, a few times this has happened not many. Usually when visiting other dojos that I should have done research about beforehand.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 10:55 AM   #17
valjean
Dojo: Wexford Aiki
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Off the topic, but is there an aikido dojo in Wexford?
Yes, sort of. This is even further off topic, but Western PA has a municipal oddity that I've never seen anyplace else I've lived: the postal designations (e.g., "Wexford") don't match the actual village names (e.g., "Franklin Park"). I'm still not sure why this is so.

Anyway, the dojo here is Aikido of Franklin Park, which I believe sits in the postal designation "Wexford." Ours is a small but dedicated group, affiliated with Capital Aikikai in DC. We have about six or seven regular students, mostly 40 to 50 somethings (like me), and all trying to squeeze in aikido practice around busy jobs and families. It's a nice little community to have, and our teacher is excellent. Visitors to the dojo are surely welcome!
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 11:08 AM   #18
valjean
Dojo: Wexford Aiki
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 15
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post
It is also worth noting though that occasionally there are some people in BJJ and Judo dojos that will haze you. I have experienced that many times. I am stubborn enough that I just used it as a leaning experience and made it a point to train with them as much as possible, it made me much tougher. Consider it realistic training in dealing with an agressive bully.
Man, you should see the hazing that some of those tai chi ch'uan folks have put me through. *Those* people are just brutal.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 01:35 PM   #19
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

I would love to be hazed by Tai Chi, what a story that would be
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 04:16 PM   #20
Alfonso
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 346
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

here's a tai chi hazing

http://www.56.com/w80/play_album-aid...E2MjczMDI.html

Alfonso Adriasola
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 07:00 PM   #21
Michael Neal
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 601
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

that's funny, what the heck is that? I would not worry about being hazed by those guys
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 09:50 PM   #22
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Mark Murray wrote: View Post
Off the topic, but is there an aikido dojo in Wexford?
Nope.
There is a Karate of Wexford however.

Dr Yoram Vodovotz however is at Capital Aikikai in PA ...Franklin Park, not Wexford

Last edited by RED : 10-21-2010 at 10:00 PM.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2010, 09:56 PM   #23
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
United_States
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Michael Neal wrote: View Post

Most Aikidoka I trained with were great people but I actually found more snobbery, affectation, and passive aggression in Aikido. It was just a few people but significant enough to me to notice a difference in training attitudes.

I'm sorry that that was your experience.

MM
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 05:05 AM   #24
Nicholas Eschenbruch
Dojo: TV Denzlingen
Location: Freiburg
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 316
Germany
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post

I'm sorry that that was your experience.
Not just his experience, I think there is something more there.

And I also agree with previous posters: I have never heard anything derogatory about aikido from the actual BJJ and MMA people I sometimes roll with. Its just not something they pass judgement on, it's outside of what they do.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 06:33 AM   #25
Demetrio Cereijo
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,075
Spain
Offline
Re: Trying to be aiki, in an MMA world...

In my experience, BJJ/MMA, Kickboxing and Judo guys are in general more respectful and open minded about Aikido than aikidoka about said arts.
  Reply With Quote

Please visit our sponsor:

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!



Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Aiki Pointers? MM Non-Aikido Martial Traditions 10 10-07-2010 11:56 AM
Martial, spiritual, and jujutsu (split off from Funakogi Thread) MM Training 38 04-05-2010 07:29 PM
Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things Mike Sigman General 118 03-13-2010 07:18 AM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 8 Peter Goldsbury Columns 60 11-24-2009 05:03 PM
Transmission, Inheritance, Emulation 10 Peter Goldsbury Columns 200 02-04-2009 07:45 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:01 PM.



vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2016 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
----------
Copyright 1997-2016 AikiWeb and its Authors, All Rights Reserved.
----------
For questions and comments about this website:
Send E-mail
plainlaid-picaresque outchasing-protistan explicantia-altarage seaford-stellionate