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Old 10-22-2010, 07:26 PM   #26
Randall Lim
Dojo: Tendoryu Aikido Singapore
Location: Singapore
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 94
Singapore
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
David Soroko wrote: View Post
From the same place most of the modern Aikido came from. Take a look here at the "founder approved ukemi"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ
I have just viewed this clip. But aren't these all high ukemis??
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:27 AM   #27
kokyu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 283
Hong Kong
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.
I agree there will be some noise, but the louder it is, the more impact suffered by that part of your body.. you may not feel the effects straightaway, but try slamming loudly for 10 years and then perhaps you may start to feel *something not quite right*

If you watch Donovan Waite Sensei's Ukemi DVDs, his ukemi style spreads the force of the throw both vertically and horizontally, thus softening your impact with the mat

There are some great videos on Youtube showing soft breakfalls... of course whether you can use these in normal practice depends on whether your dojo does not mind students performing a different kind of ukemi

Advanced Ukemi 2

I am not sure if the soft style in Advanced Ukemi 2 can result in a twisted arm/shoulder because it seems rely heavily on the arm reaching so far ahead of the fall - appreciate if someone could comment on this...

USF Front Feather Fall
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:03 PM   #28
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 909
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.
Don't be afraid. You are right to disagree with that statement.

MM
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Old 11-12-2010, 06:12 PM   #29
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 587
Spain
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
Don't be afraid. You are right to disagree with that statement.
Been almost one month from that post. Is it something personal?
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Old 11-15-2010, 05:57 AM   #30
Dan Richards
Dojo: Latham Eclectic
Location: NY
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 452
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

You might want to ask yourself how learning to fall safely would help you, regardless of whether you're in the dojo, or on a ladder, or ice, or concrete, or on a bike, or in a pillow fight.
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Old 11-15-2010, 06:15 PM   #31
Anjisan
Dojo: Aikido of Madison
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Ai symbol Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

For me, it is not to high break fall or to not high break fall that is the question per se. It is more a question of does the Uke have the skills (relevant to their rank/time training) to allow me a Nage the freedom to explore as far as I am able. Because ultimately, one can only progress as far as your Ukes will allow. Of course this applies to the ability to maintain a fluid connection as well a take a break fall.

It cannot be a complete coincidence that when Shihan such a Saotome sensei call up Ukes, they are usually very capable of taking whatever ukemi is necessary because Saotome (and I quite sure other Shihan as well) often do not know what technique or sequence of techniques they are going to execute until they are "in the moment".

Break falls are a part of the art to some degree and due to how our relationship unfolds, self-defence requirements of the situation it may appear as necessary either due to Nage error and the need of Uke to protect themselves OR the direct intent of the Nage due to whim or necessity. Certainly if one gets to Shodan, I would hope that it would not be an issue. That said, I realize like my sensei has stated, that one's body only has so many break fall in it high or otherwise so pick your spots as both Nage and Uke.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:58 PM   #32
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Been almost one month from that post. Is it something personal?
No, just noticed what you said.
Been out of the country this last week...so I just noticed this post as well.

MM
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Old 11-19-2010, 04:44 AM   #33
Flintstone
Dojo: Wherever I happen to be
Location: Zaragoza
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Spain
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Maggie Schill wrote: View Post
No, just noticed what you said.
Been out of the country this last week...so I just noticed this post as well.
Watch out, Emperor stalking us.
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Old 11-19-2010, 03:29 PM   #34
RED
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
Watch out, Emperor stalking us.

MM
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:47 AM   #35
John Matsushima
 
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

I think that how to take ukemi isn't the choice of the uke. If the person doing the technique is good enough, the uke will be falling however the nage decides. I don't like it when people blame the uke and say things like "You are falling wrong...you were were supposed to do a breakfall", or "You shouldn't have done a forward roll, you were supposed to do a backward roll". The nage is the one that can adjust the technique to give uke a little more air time, to cause him to land on his head, or to fall into a nice gentle plop on the ground. That's also why I think that the nage is responsible for the safety of the uke.

It's like bowling, by controlling how you throw the ball will determine the direction, whether it goes straight or curves, or goes into the gutter. The ball has no decision in the matter.

How necessary is the breakfall? Well, I think it is a matter of demonstrating that one can execute a technique (without the uke willingly take a jump) with control and precision with regards to balance, timing, and distance.

People shouldn't be jumping into ukemi anyway, but I guess that is one school of thought in Aikido.

-John Matsushima

My blog on Japanese culture
http://onecorneroftheplanetinjapan.blogspot.jp/
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Old 11-20-2010, 12:25 PM   #36
Anjisan
Dojo: Aikido of Madison
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
John Matsushima wrote: View Post
I think that how to take ukemi isn't the choice of the uke. If the person doing the technique is good enough, the uke will be falling however the nage decides. I don't like it when people blame the uke and say things like "You are falling wrong...you were were supposed to do a breakfall", or "You shouldn't have done a forward roll, you were supposed to do a backward roll". The nage is the one that can adjust the technique to give uke a little more air time, to cause him to land on his head, or to fall into a nice gentle plop on the ground. That's also why I think that the nage is responsible for the safety of the uke.

It's like bowling, by controlling how you throw the ball will determine the direction, whether it goes straight or curves, or goes into the gutter. The ball has no decision in the matter.

How necessary is the breakfall? Well, I think it is a matter of demonstrating that one can execute a technique (without the uke willingly take a jump) with control and precision with regards to balance, timing, and distance.

People shouldn't be jumping into ukemi anyway, but I guess that is one school of thought in Aikido.
I do agree that Nage has to look out for Uke. However, Uke has to be responsible for him or herself as well. All the best individuals that I have seen take awesome Ukemi are actively engaged, not a kite on string. If one ever wants to get into and understand (reversals), that can only be done if Uke is actively engaged. When I am taking ukemi for my sensei, he changes as I change throughout the interaction, until its conclusion. However, I am "there" throughout the connection.
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