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Old 10-19-2010, 03:59 AM   #1
Andrew Macdonald
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ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?

and while i am on the subject, I don't recall any videos of o-sensei's uke performing this kind of high break fall does anyone know the origins?
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:40 AM   #2
WilliB
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Re: ukemi

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?
In my experience high breakfalls are only really *necessary* with a few techniques like some versions of koshinage. The wild breakfalls from standard techniques that you see in demonstrations are for show, imho.
And the older guys in the dojo skip those; no need to get slammed on the mat when you are over 70.
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Old 10-19-2010, 05:50 AM   #3
amoeba
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Re: ukemi

It depends: in the Aikido I do, techniques like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are supposed to be thrown into a breakfall eventually. Of course you can throw them so that a low fall is possible, but I guess it would be difficult (and potentially dangerous) to attemt one from a "full power" technique...
But I know there are also styles that do not do breakfalls at all, so it's not necessary for aikido as such. But when you're thrown accordingly, you might have to do one. Though no one will throw you like that if they're not sure you can take it...
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:24 AM   #4
ninjaqutie
 
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Our dojo does them when its called for. If you get caught doing it when it isn't, or are jumping into a breakfall, you can get scolded. No need to slam your body around unless its called for. Sometimes if I get behind as uke or due to the power, I take breakfalls. I am working on making them softer, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I guess the exception would be if you were working on breakfalls.... then you have to take them.

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Old 10-19-2010, 01:35 PM   #5
dps
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?
It is only necessary when you actually need to use it and not necessarily whilst practicing Aikido. A good skill to have when falling from any large height.

David
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Old 10-19-2010, 02:44 PM   #6
bkedelen
 
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

There are sutemi versions of many techniques where, for example, nage acquires uke's limb and balance and then nage does a breakfall on purpose. This is just one example of an avenue of study that will remain closed to you if you cannot do a standing breakfall.

Last edited by bkedelen : 10-19-2010 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 10-20-2010, 02:11 PM   #7
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

The only high falls I am aware of is from koshinage. Aren't the rest the same?

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-21-2010, 12:26 AM   #8
WilliB
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Benjamin Edelen wrote: View Post
There are sutemi versions of many techniques where, for example, nage acquires uke's limb and balance and then nage does a breakfall on purpose. This is just one example of an avenue of study that will remain closed to you if you cannot do a standing breakfall.
A "standing breakfall"? I think if you are breakfalling, you are not really standing
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:43 AM   #9
carina reinhardt
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
The only high falls I am aware of is from koshinage. Aren't the rest the same?
It depends from how tori throws you.... in shihonage and kotegaeshi he can throw you for a high fall or just to fall in ushiro.
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:43 AM   #10
Lyle Laizure
 
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Carina Reinhardt wrote: View Post
It depends from how tori throws you.... in shihonage and kotegaeshi he can throw you for a high fall or just to fall in ushiro.
I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.

Lyle Laizure
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Old 10-21-2010, 10:56 AM   #11
Janet Rosen
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.
plus that the high fall is a forward one, not a back one.

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Old 10-21-2010, 12:22 PM   #12
carina reinhardt
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Lyle Laizure wrote: View Post
I think I see what you mean. The difference between the two being that the back breakfall doesn't involve air time while the "high" fall you refer to does.
Yes to get a high fall tori must throw uke turning his hand and arm in both techniques more to the outside, but for the back breakfall more to the inside, I hope I you understand me, I studied english only at school and learned it working 6 month as aupair in Toronto, so sorry for my small vocabulary.
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Old 10-21-2010, 01:08 PM   #13
Maarten De Queecker
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Ashley Carter wrote: View Post
Our dojo does them when its called for. If you get caught doing it when it isn't, or are jumping into a breakfall, you can get scolded. No need to slam your body around unless its called for. Sometimes if I get behind as uke or due to the power, I take breakfalls. I am working on making them softer, but I haven't gotten there yet.

I guess the exception would be if you were working on breakfalls.... then you have to take them.
I'd get scolded a lot then. I enjoy taking breakfalls, and, coming from a judo background when I was a kid, I never quite understood the general aikioist's fear of things like koshinage. Those things are pretty standard in both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, and don't hurt at all if you would at least try to practice them.

You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:14 PM   #14
Adam Pilipshen
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Re: ukemi

Quote:
Alissa Götzinger wrote: View Post
It depends: in the Aikido I do, techniques like shiho nage and kote gaeshi are supposed to be thrown into a breakfall eventually. Of course you can throw them so that a low fall is possible, but I guess it would be difficult (and potentially dangerous) to attemt one from a "full power" technique...
But I know there are also styles that do not do breakfalls at all, so it's not necessary for aikido as such. But when you're thrown accordingly, you might have to do one. Though no one will throw you like that if they're not sure you can take it...
I just wanted to share an interesting story I heard from someone that was at Hombu Dojo in the early 60's. He was taking Arikawa Sensei's class in which shiho nage was being taught - I have heard Arikawa Sensei's favorite technique was shiho nage. That day he was demonstrating the technique in a way that Uke had to take a high-fall (i.e. the elbow was being leveraged). A few minutes later O'Sensei came on to that mat, took over class, and demonstrated the same technique with the same Uke. The Uke again took a high-fall and was then scolded by O'Sensei. Since I wish to remain respectfull to the image of the late great Arikawa Sensei, let me just say that the Uke was not the only one "critiqued" that day.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:39 PM   #15
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:46 PM   #16
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: ukemi

Quote:
Willi Brix wrote: View Post
The wild breakfalls from standard techniques that you see in demonstrations are for show,
or caused by nage's poor technique.

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Old 10-21-2010, 02:52 PM   #17
Michael Neal
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

I have probably taken many thousands of break falls in Judo and agree with Maarten, you can try and take softer break falls at your own peril.
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Old 10-21-2010, 03:36 PM   #18
DonMagee
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

No amount of ki is going to allow you to change the laws of gravity.

I think you only take the breakfalls you are forced to take. No more no less. Choosing to take a big fall when a little one would suffice is doing a injustice to your training partner.

- Don
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Old 10-21-2010, 04:44 PM   #19
carina reinhardt
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Alejandro Villanueva wrote: View Post
I disagree, but am afraid of the moderator, so I won't say no more.
I think the same as Alejandro, I know a few guys who fall like a leaf, we name the high fall so in spanish and practice it, the most important is confidence in your tori and a very relaxed body.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:19 PM   #20
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
....I never quite understood the general aikioist's fear of things like koshinage. Those things are pretty standard in both Judo and Jiu-Jitsu, and don't hurt at all if you would at least try to practice them.
I actually love being thrown that way. Reminds me of the throws I used to do in my previous style.

Quote:
Maarten De Queecker wrote: View Post
You cannot make breakfalls softer. You just slam full-weight into the mat. It makes noise, nothing can be done about that.
I have seen it done. Some people just seem to land softer even when thrown equally as hard as the next uke. Not to mention, there is a difference between softer and quiet. Sure, there will be sound during a breakfall, but a breakfall doesn't have to be hard on the body.

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Old 10-21-2010, 05:49 PM   #21
niall
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Adam mentioned Arikawa Sensei. I was his uke for many years (I don't think I ever took a high ukemi from shiho nage) and one thing I experienced is relevant. For example most people take high/jumping ukemi from kotegaeshi. I used to as well. Then I became Arikawa sensei's uke in 1990 and I had to adjust. His kote gaeshi was sharp and powerful and direct and so I usually just didn't have the time to take jumping ukemi any more. Bam! Straight down into the mat.

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Old 10-21-2010, 06:08 PM   #22
Demetrio Cereijo
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Arikawa Sensei received the memo, or so it seems.

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Old 10-22-2010, 02:54 AM   #23
Randall Lim
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
How necessary is it to be able to do a high break fall. the like of which you see in demostrations?

It seems almost a trademark of Aikido but is it more for disply purposes? will a low break fallbe just as good and pssible more practical?

and while i am on the subject, I don't recall any videos of o-sensei's uke performing this kind of high break fall does anyone know the origins?
In my opinion, whether to perform a high or low Ukemi all depends on the manner in which & feeling of which I am floored.

If my Tori delivers me at a low height, I would lower my centre as far as posible to execute a low & gentle Ukemi.

But if he delivers me at a height too high for me to execute a low & gentle Ukemi, I would resort to a high one, but extending me slapping arm further back to absorb the impact of the high fall.

I always make sure that in whatever manner I Ukemi:

(1) I must feel centred with the throw (pivotted at one point, the throwing point), and

(2) It must not harm if it were to be hard ground.
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:53 AM   #24
Andrew Macdonald
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

so it would seem from some of the post that O-sensei didn't like or approve of the hig breakfalls. so where did they come from?
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:10 AM   #25
sorokod
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Re: ukemi - How necessary is high break fall?

Quote:
Andrew Macdonald wrote: View Post
so it would seem from some of the post that O-sensei didn't like or approve of the hig breakfalls. so where did they come from?
From the same place most of the modern Aikido came from. Take a look here at the "founder approved ukemi"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

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