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Old 08-29-2000, 12:15 AM   #76
Erik
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At the risk of incensing you all further may I suggest that your partners may be right in going easier on you. AAAAAAAaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhh, the flames, IT BURNS!!!!!

Ok, here's what I mean. I remember working with a guy (he'd done something for a year or so but was new to Aikido) who in the middle of a relatively slow practice said to me, with a fair dose of arrogance, "you don't have to go so easy with me, I can take it." Something about it just pissed me off, so as he came in with the yokomen strike, I dropped an atemi on him full-force. Now my definition of atemi in this case is a very powerful hip energy which when received feels like a strike but isn't. Basically a pulled punch with full blown energy. I'm a bigger guy so this can be a lot of energy if I get it right--I did.

Anyways, after we peeled him off the ceiling, I explained to him why we went the speed we did although I'm pretty sure he got it by then.

My point is that maybe some men are being cautious for your own good and some of you are so hell bent on being equal that you don't realize you really are being treated equal. Maybe these guys do this for a reason. Or maybe they are pigs.

For the record, I attack women exactly the same way I do men.

[Edited by Erik on August 28, 2000 at 11:17pm]
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Old 08-29-2000, 06:00 AM   #77
guest1234
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Chocolateuke,
thanks for your reply...and since i was born well before the women's right movement i especially liked it!

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Old 08-29-2000, 06:08 AM   #78
guest1234
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Erik,
I think we have already acknowleged that partners attack beginners (male and female) more slowly. so i hope your last commment wasn't to say that if a woman feels her male partner is not attacking appropriately, HE knows best...and before someone starts saying 'sempai knows best' this is just as often the problem with those junior to me, if not more often.
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Old 08-29-2000, 06:49 AM   #79
guest1234
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oh, one last thing, for my fellow females who are more concerned about the 'too easy' nages (my only real complaint is the 'too easy' ukes)...
since i feel my role as uke is to give nage what he/she wants, and if they don't want to throw me, that's their right, i work on my ukemi in three ways: practice rolls/falls by myself, try to grab a partner i know will throw me if it's something i like to fall to (like koshi's), and if all else fails, find someone (male or female) who likes to throw me and just be uke for them before or after class---no one has ever turned me down on an offer to toss me around a bit.
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Old 08-29-2000, 12:13 PM   #80
Erik
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Quote:
ca wrote:
I think we have already acknowleged that partners attack beginners (male and female) more slowly. so i hope your last commment wasn't to say that if a woman feels her male partner is not attacking appropriately, HE knows best...and before someone starts saying 'sempai knows best' this is just as often the problem with those junior to me, if not more often.
I'm saying he might know best if he were senior and he might know best if he were junior. Sometimes we overstep our ability without knowing it. It's made worse when we have an issue to prove.

I used that guy as an example because I can imagine a woman worked up about not being treated equally. She works with some guy, who starts soft with her for whatever reason, and she lights him up. The guy looks at her and says, "ok!" Five seconds later the world is black and she has no idea how she wound up at the hospital.

Several responses in this thread were not terribly centered. While I can only imagine the frustration, I just wanted to make the point that sometimes we overstep our ability because of issues not related to what's actually going on at that moment. Everytime, I've gotten really nailed on the mat (non-fluke injuries) it was because I was off-centered over some issue of my own devising.

Note: I'm not saying this isn't a real issue. There's plenty enough idiots in the world. I'm just saying that you might get a hard lesson some day that you will have created.

Am I making any sense?

PS: I don't remember going soft on the guy because of his ability. I remember it being my practice, but his issue encountered one of mine and....
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Old 08-29-2000, 04:44 PM   #81
giriasis
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Erik,

I see your point about this guy you were talking about. He sounded like someone with an attitude.

I think the issue here is that I was objecting to is that of those who go easy on women for the sake of them just being women. And by going easy, I mean not giving a decent committed attack. If I can pull my hand out of a grip, it is not committed. If the punch is to thin air, it is not committed.

I appropriately assert myself when I find myself in these situations, it is easily resolved by simple communication. Such as "hey, use a firm grip." or "hey, make sure you have proper ma'ai." Then things will not result in what you described.

Also, since there are enough women who are addressing the situation and have found themselves to be in this situation, then perhaps we are not just complaining or having an attitude. We might actually have something constructive to say. Something to improve aikido and relations between the sexes.

Now, if someone comes across with a major attitude, then that's another story. I have had that situation happen before. And that is in another thread.

Also I think a side issue as to why guys go easy is perhaps is that they are learning to not muscle their techniques. As a woman, I can't get away with muscling a man who is significantly stronger than me. But many men are stronger than many women and they can get away with muscling, thereby, doing the technique wrong. In this situation, I have responsibility to tell the guy he is muscling rather than doing proper technique.

Anne Marie
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Old 08-29-2000, 09:07 PM   #82
guest1234
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Quote:
Erik wrote:
At the risk of incensing you all further may I suggest that your partners may be right in going easier on you. AAAAAAAaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhh, the flames, IT BURNS!!!!!

Ok, here's what I mean. I remember working with a guy (he'd done something for a year or so but was new to Aikido) who in the middle of a relatively slow practice said to me, with a fair dose of arrogance, "you don't have to go so easy with me, I can take it." Something about it just pissed me off, so as he came in with the yokomen strike, I dropped an atemi on him full-force. Now my definition of atemi in this case is a very powerful hip energy which when received feels like a strike but isn't. Basically a pulled punch with full blown energy. I'm a bigger guy so this can be a lot of energy if I get it right--I did.

Anyways, after we peeled him off the ceiling, I explained to him why we went the speed we did although I'm pretty sure he got it by then.

For the record, I attack women exactly the same way I do men.

[Edited by Erik on August 28, 2000 at 11:17pm]
perhaps if the testosterone level were lower, you might have explained to him why you were going slowly, or have found a medium speed between what you were doing and peeling him off of the ceiling. again, i have no quarrel with those who as nage don't want to practice up to my level, just in an insincere attack when i'm nage.
just as likely (probably more so) as the male in a male-female mix knowing her ability better than she, is that SHE knows best. so all we are asking is to be treated with respect. respect our abilities, and our assessment of them. when so many women are saying they feel men are not treating them based on their abilities, and so many men in this thread admitting they do not treat them based on their abilities (eg, 'i am softer on women'), then i'd say i see a trend.
Magma used a technique i like to use (because the military is race sensitive but still learning to be gender bias free), substitute a minority race for women in any of the sentences you've typed, and see how they sound: I'm softer on Blacks; Mexicans don't like bruises; nage might be a better judge of your ability than you, it has nothing to do with the fact that you are Jewish. then take a long look in the mirror.
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Old 08-29-2000, 09:19 PM   #83
Dan Hover
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why does it seem that we are beating a dead horse on this? Place your bets, place your bets, round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows, it is essentially a non-issue. train, and focus on your training, that is the issue, all of these things are distracting us from the real issue, to train, train, train. our real energy should be spent on us. the study of budo is essentially a selfish one, how can WE become better individuals? How can we improve ourselves. Not how we can inmprove others. it is the teachers job to point the way, not to hold our hand and take us there. Train, forget about the differences, they don't exist, we make an issue out of them, we make them out of our own ignorance. Screw our poor perceptions!! Train! some of you will get what I'm saying, some of you won't. And there is no explaining it to you, you just don't get it, those of you who do, there is no need to explain it you either, you already get it.

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 08-29-2000, 10:11 PM   #84
Magma
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Ki Symbol

While I agree with Dan's fundamental point that we just need to train, and after that we should probably train, and then I was thinking maybe a bit more training... I disagree that discussions like this bear no weight. What we do on the training floor to train our minds and bodies does not preclude discussions about that training, nor does it end on the mat. In fact, on point discussions of issues raised in our training can greatly help the actual benefit we take from our physical workouts.

In other words, this is training, too.

Now, so that we don't drift into an off-topic jaunt which is a discussion about a discussion, let me offer two questions:

(1) So far, the only reason given by the men posting to this thread seems to be that they don't enjoy hurting women. Laudable. But has a woman ever asked you to go more lightly? Maybe, but...

Did she ask you because she was a woman?

(2) We all have the ability to completely thrash our uke because of the control that they surrender to us so that we might train better. That being said, has a man ever asked you to go more lightly? Maybe, but...

Did you apply that across the board to the rest of the sex?

That's just me thinkin'
M.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 08-29-2000, 11:10 PM   #85
Erik
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Quote:
ca wrote:
perhaps if the testosterone level were lower, you might have explained to him why you were going slowly, or have found a medium speed between what you were doing and peeling him off of the ceiling.
I agree! But I didn't tell the story to point out my failures. I did it for a different reason which I guess I'm the only one crazy enough to have grasped.

Quote:
just as likely (probably more so) as the male in a male-female mix knowing her ability better than she, is that SHE knows best.
It depends on your partner. I remember Koichi Barrish putting a pin on me when I was a 6th kyu. I slapped like a wounded duck, OW, OW, OW! Once he let go it turned out I was fine, barely stretched. I'd suggest he knew my ability much better than I. Were I female, I think I'd have to suggest he would still know better than I did.

Quote:
so all we are asking is to be treated with respect. respect our abilities, and our assessment of them.
Works for me! Been doing it for years.

Quote:
when so many women are saying they feel men are not treating them based on their abilities, and so many men in this thread admitting they do not treat them based on their abilities (eg, 'i am softer on women'), then i'd say i see a trend.
I'd argue the sample is way too small. How many jar heads have admitted they treat women differently? Five? How much combined experience do you think they had? 5 years? How many women have piped up? Five? Plus the original question biased the response. Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely sexism in this world, I'm just not sure this sample is the right proof.

Quote:
Magma used a technique i like to use (because the military is race sensitive but still learning to be gender bias free), substitute a minority race for women in any of the sentences you've typed, and see how they sound: I'm softer on Blacks; Mexicans don't like bruises; nage might be a better judge of your ability than you, it has nothing to do with the fact that you are Jewish. then take a long look in the mirror.
You've attributed quotes to me that are not mine. You may not have meant to but it reads that way.

Nage might be a better judge of your ability than you are (I did say this one), and in many cases, damn well better be. We call these type of people instructors or seniors. If they couldn't judge our ability better than we do then we've got more problems than I've realized. Also, that kohai you are training with might not be the kohai you think they are. They might be a better judge of your ability than you realize.

Dan! Ukemi takes many forms.
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Old 08-30-2000, 04:45 AM   #86
Dan Hover
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Quote:
Erik wrote:

Dan! Ukemi takes many forms. [/b]
Erik! Never said it didn't...

Dan Hover

of course that's my opinion, I could be wrong
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Old 08-30-2000, 05:42 AM   #87
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201 people (50% of those polled) admitted to prejudice on the mat--- the 'bias' of my question was to ask who that was, and why they held those prejudices. some people are open to changing a prejudiced view, and maybe some of them have now that their particular fears have been addressed (hurting women, being embarrassed if the woman is better, etc)---isn't that what prejudice is all about, fear? so hopefully more than 2.5% of those with fears also had their fears addressed when the five or so who described theirs posted a reply.
at what point does a woman know her abilities better than the man who is telling her she can't do what she thinks she can? and if we don't test and stretch the limits of our ablities, then how do we grow? How do we train, if 50% of those on the mat do not see us as individuals, and try to help us grow by letting us stretch? and if 50% of students and teachers polled said they treated (substitute the minority of choice) differently on the mat than they did Caucasians, would that poll have passed without comment, and would the answer be to ignore it and just train? we talk a lot about other training fears---falling, rolling, etc, why not address these fears of 201 people? we are training; i find those who will let me feel the technique, i find those who will help me practice ukemi---before and after class, if i can't get it during. But some of us would like to see a bit less prejudice.
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Old 08-30-2000, 09:13 AM   #88
Chuck Clark
 
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Quote:
Erik wrote:
How many jar heads have admitted they treat women differently? [/b]
Eric...

Just an aside here to let you know that I'm a "jar head" (USMC veteran on inactive duty) that does not "treat women differently."

I had to laugh when I saw that because in all my years I've never seen anyone use that term other than a reference to us USMC Jarheads.

To be serious, I view people in keikogi as students of budo and try to relate to them in ways that are appropriate to their level of training. The sex of the person isn't relative to that process.

Off the mat isn't much different...

Chuck Clark
Jiyushinkai Aikibudo
www.jiyushinkai.org
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Old 08-30-2000, 09:35 AM   #89
andrew
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Cas long wrote: "This is IRONY"

No, that was clearly sarcasm. This is pedantry.
all the best....

andrew
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Old 08-30-2000, 09:59 AM   #90
Cas Long
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Unhappy Who Ate A Dictionary?!

Andrew,

I disagree-it is semantic.

All the best to you too.......

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 08-30-2000, 01:38 PM   #91
Erik
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ca,

The problem with polls is by their very nature they are unscientific. The question of do you treat women differently allows for a great many interpretations. Not all of them heinous to equality.

I guess what strikes me about sexism and the shomen strike is that I've experienced a significant amount of the exact same things you have. I'd like to propose that maybe there are other possibilities here.

1) The pacifist. I bump into a fair amount of people who started Aikido because they don't want to hurt anyone. Consequently they don't want to hit me.

2) The "Aikido is fake" person. They've watched a class and don't believe what they saw. Consequently, they pull their strikes because they think that's how we do it.

3) The "striking arts" people. Some of these people are well conditioned not to hit. You don't spend Karate class hitting each other for obvious reasons.

My thinking is that you might be seeing some of these people and thinking, "sexist bastards" when I get the exact same thing. Sometimes you see what you expect to see or you create what you expect to see. Again, I'm not saying we are free from ism's, far from it, just floating a possibility.

Quote:
at what point does a woman know her abilities better than the man who is telling her she can't do what she thinks she can? and if we don't test and stretch the limits of our ablities, then how do we grow?
I hear what you are saying and I agree with you, way more than I think you realize. All I want to say is that if we ever meet on the mat I will absolutely make my own judgement as to how we practice. You will be doing the same thing I hope.

Quote:
would that poll have passed without comment, and would the answer be to ignore it and just train?
Actually, maybe yes. As Dan pointed out, this is a selfish practice. We take and learn from whom we can, sometimes they are not stellar people when held up to our standards. I can think of more than one. One example I can think of has produced a wealth of good students despite flaws which are quite significant and would probably send you off the deep end. This is not as clean as you might think and sometimes you have to work with what you have.

Quote:
But some of us would like to see a bit less prejudice.
Agreed!
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Old 08-31-2000, 05:16 AM   #92
Victor
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how to deal with such women as my mom and my sis, who often like to say:
"don't forget that I'm a woman first" ?

If I'm not right - I'm wrong

Victro
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Old 08-31-2000, 05:35 AM   #93
andrew
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By this time is all just silly, though, Cas.
andrew
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Old 08-31-2000, 07:39 AM   #94
Cas Long
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Wink

Andrew,

Why are you so intimidated by women?:

i·ro·ny (r-n, r-)
n., pl. i·ro·nies.

a)
1.The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
2.An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
3.A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.

b)
1.Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).
2.An occurrence, a result, or a circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
3.Dramatic irony.
4.Socratic irony.


sar·casm (särkzm)
n.

1.A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2.A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3.The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.


Just chill: women make good Linguists as well as excellent Aikidoka.

I would love to train with you!

Regards.....




[Edited by Cas Long on August 31, 2000 at 06:55am]

Peace,
Cas

"Love Is A Verb"
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Old 08-31-2000, 11:33 AM   #95
Magma
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Circle

Quote:
Victor wrote:
how to deal with such women as my mom and my sis, who often like to say:
"don't forget that I'm a woman first" ?
Not on the mat they aren't. On the mat they need to not forget that they are aikidoka first. Aikidoka of a certain rank and ability, and with a responsibility to improve themselves by challenging themselves, doing what they thought they couldn't, and with the responsibility to help their partner train safely and productively.

Tim
It's a sad irony: In U's satori, he forgot every technique he ever knew; since then, generations of doka have spent their whole careers trying to remember.
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Old 08-31-2000, 08:12 PM   #96
Nick
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well put magma! Perhaps now we could put this post to rest...?

All the irony and sarcasm (as well defined above) are starting to get repititive...

I suppose I can't really close the post, but I'd like to ask you to at least stop arguing over each other. By this I mean going off-topic and noting a person's shortcomings (of which we all have many) rather than discussing the topic at hand.

I'm sorry, but I feel this has been dragged out for too long...

Gomen Nasai in advance for my temperment,

-Nick

---
Nick Porter
"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."
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Old 09-08-2000, 11:11 AM   #97
Mike Collins
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My mom and dad taught me to be nice to women and protect them. I am never going to hit a woman as hard as I am a man, if something goes wrong, I trust the increased mass of a man's body to absorb the blow better than the typically leaner musculature of a woman.

Bear in mind that I have trained with some women (one in particular) who are capable of physically intimidating me; I'm still bigger than them, but they are probably physically superior to me, in those cases, they get the full deal. I KNOW they can handle it.

I'll also take quite a bit off the top for a man who appears to be physically frail or less capable of taking a poorly distanced or timed strike. It's not purely a gender thang, but my caveman's categorizing mind finds it easier to break it out by sex rather than endomorph, ectomorph or mesomorph.

Some guys (me specifically) are always going to see women as different, and not too suprisingly, they are. Not less, simply different. All differences are okay, and they should all be recognized and accounted for. If a woman trains with me and feels that she is being given too much slack, all she needs to do is turn up the juice a bit, and I'm not too thick to notice it, and I'll respond appropriately.
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Old 09-11-2000, 05:03 AM   #98
andrew
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Quote:
Cas Long wrote:

I would love to train with you!

[Edited by Cas Long on August 31, 2000 at 06:55am]
But you wouldn't get proper Ukemi.....
(joke)
andrew
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Old 09-11-2000, 08:53 AM   #99
Bussho
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Women as uke/tori

Hi

I think that women are great partner, specially in Aikido 'cause they have a natural lower point of gravity, and because of the wider(not ment mean...) hips they can easier go into low stances and the likes, givning them the possiblity of some mean nage's.

Ciao
Terje
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Old 09-30-2000, 01:11 AM   #100
Kestrel
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Wink Do you treat women differently on the mat and why??

Short answer: Yes...I'm a sexist pig. I'm trying to change

Long answer: Like many men I've been socialized into believing that women are less physically able than men..not at an intellectual level where I can do something about it, but at a gut level where my reflexes live and where it is much harder to change things.
Because of this..I tend to have a flinch reaction the first time that I go through a form with a female uke. Its not intentional and I usually recognize that I did not use enough conviction when dealing with their attack and I try to fix it. A similar thing happens when I am uke and I fail to give them a committed attack (I do this with men too sometimes..being new). I'm not arguing that this is right..I think that it isnt...it does detract from training. That being said, there are *some* women who flinch if I *do* come at them with conviction. I think that a lot of it involves adjusting yourself to your partners needs. And finally some combinations just dont work well because of psycho-dynamics. I practiced yesterday with one young lady who I was trying to take cues from (she being the more experienced one) and found myself simply becoming more and more confused by her body language. Later during the same practice, I paired with another young lady who quite authoritatively put me on my back

My request..ladies..gentlemen ..if I am not putting enough conviction into my forms..please tell me..and I will strive to correct myself. I dont do it on purpose.

Tim

"Are you *sure* this is safe?"
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